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On May 13 2018 23:08 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2018 21:33 Golgotha wrote:On May 13 2018 21:23 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:18 Golgotha wrote:
that game was good because mini kept fking up. hero busted through 6 fking reavers behind a choke with like 6 cannons defending. mini somehow lost all his shit to that crap. then mini loses shuttles full of reavers. then mini attacks up a ramp when another base a screen away is wide open. 4 zealots could have taken it out. You keep forgetting all the small brilliant moves Mini made in that game. Dont be like that. Mini played great under all the pressure. Otherwise he would never had survived as long as he did Everyone does mistakes in bw. Its a game of priorities. If you choose to focus on only the mistakes, you are missing the other good things the player is doing often simultanously. Also, you have to realize that Hero was dropping a lot of hydras over those reavers. How is mini going to micro that? Its impossible. nah man I ain't hating on mini.He was in a dominant position and he dropped the ball big time. he lost 3 shuttles with reavers inside and he couldn't hold a narrow choke with 5+ reavers and 5+ cannons. Mini completely destroyed Hero when hero tried busting through with drops and mass hydra. slaughtered. mini had time to prepare for the 2nd wave of hydras and the 2nd wave didn't even come with drops. mini gave hero enough time to bring up his 2nd wave and run over the 4 reavers. the 2nd wave was a lot less than the 1st, but that led to a base trade. and then Mini has a chance to kill Hero's base with the most drones, but instead he surrounds a base that is on a ramp where ALL o fhero's hydras are. he goes up and dies. he should have shifted his army to the exposed hatch when he saw all those hydras. I ain't saying Mini is some sort of idiot or a loser, hell no. He's a great player and definitely deserves top 4. but he objectively made glaring mistakes in this game when he had the dominant position. imo, he was tilted. edit: he actually lost more shuttles, but the shuttles I am speaking of are the shuttles where he flies over a bunch of hydras... Mini did defended the choke with his reavers. He did it despite the overlords dropping over his reavers, with good probe block and reaver pickups. And how could he have prepared for the 2nd wave when it came only 20 seconds later? By ferrying units over to his own natural? Well maybe, but why not just go for a base trade? He had already bulilt all his gateways on the other side. His gameplan was to dominate there, not to spend half his apm on ferrying units just to defend his natural and main when there are more resources to be taken on the other side of the map. About those two shuttles he lost by flying them over a returning group of hydras in the middle of the map. They probably had some dark templar in them because Mini was similtanously clearing the overlords in the last remaining base for Hero in the down right corner. He also was microing a reaver at Heros natural. This is multitasking protoss style. Its very unforgiven when it goes wrong, but it is what you have to do.. Hero also did mistakes, but it doesnt cost you that much to lose some hydras vs the cost of losing reavers and dark templar does it? You have to make decions at the fractions of a second. Which means that you cannot just stop up and think too hard about what you should do. Intuition has to take over and you have to, as they say in speed-chess - "play with your hands, not with you head". But sure Mini a did bit more mistakes then Hero. And its why he eventually Hero won the game. But if you were to analyze all the micro decisions that were made by Mini throughout that game, the mistakes get outdrowned by all the good ones. This is why i get triggered by your comment that the "only reason that the game was good because of Mini fking it up". Thats literally what you said.
Not sure why it bothers you. It was obvious to everyone that mini had the chance to close it out but lost it. I'm sure he even knows that he dropped the ball. The game was good because he let hero stay in it. The game was lost when he took the fight at the middle expo. His last chance and he went for the base with 24 hydras sitting pretty.
If this still bothers you, watch flash or JDs restream. Even JD says there is no way hero can get through mini's main. He says it's gg and is surprised when hero actually makes it through. That's how strongly positioned mini was.
Then JD yells that mini lost the game when he lost the two shuttles that flew into the hydras. He specifically says mini needed that to clear hero's nat. He specifically says the game has shifted to zerg in that moment.
Finally, JD heavily chides mini with strong words when mini goes for the middle expansion where hero is waiting on top with hydras. JD is in disbelief.
Jd: wow, mini has too many storms. This fight is the final fight for both players. Hero does not have enough lurkers.
Jd: what? Wtf? You are going up here?! You are really going up here? Why aren't you going for the exposed main? That's too many high Templars for hero, but you are going to try and attack here?
Jd: hero is saying thank you, a perfect fight for zerg. Stupid. You should have attacked the exposed base, mini. Why didn't you? You just lost too much and now you are behind.
You don't have to listen to me but I'm pretty sure JD knows his stuff.
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TAKE ANOTHER EXPAND MINI !! TAKE ANOTHER EXPAND!!!
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On May 14 2018 01:33 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2018 23:08 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:33 Golgotha wrote:On May 13 2018 21:23 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:18 Golgotha wrote:
that game was good because mini kept fking up. hero busted through 6 fking reavers behind a choke with like 6 cannons defending. mini somehow lost all his shit to that crap. then mini loses shuttles full of reavers. then mini attacks up a ramp when another base a screen away is wide open. 4 zealots could have taken it out. You keep forgetting all the small brilliant moves Mini made in that game. Dont be like that. Mini played great under all the pressure. Otherwise he would never had survived as long as he did Everyone does mistakes in bw. Its a game of priorities. If you choose to focus on only the mistakes, you are missing the other good things the player is doing often simultanously. Also, you have to realize that Hero was dropping a lot of hydras over those reavers. How is mini going to micro that? Its impossible. nah man I ain't hating on mini.He was in a dominant position and he dropped the ball big time. he lost 3 shuttles with reavers inside and he couldn't hold a narrow choke with 5+ reavers and 5+ cannons. Mini completely destroyed Hero when hero tried busting through with drops and mass hydra. slaughtered. mini had time to prepare for the 2nd wave of hydras and the 2nd wave didn't even come with drops. mini gave hero enough time to bring up his 2nd wave and run over the 4 reavers. the 2nd wave was a lot less than the 1st, but that led to a base trade. and then Mini has a chance to kill Hero's base with the most drones, but instead he surrounds a base that is on a ramp where ALL o fhero's hydras are. he goes up and dies. he should have shifted his army to the exposed hatch when he saw all those hydras. I ain't saying Mini is some sort of idiot or a loser, hell no. He's a great player and definitely deserves top 4. but he objectively made glaring mistakes in this game when he had the dominant position. imo, he was tilted. edit: he actually lost more shuttles, but the shuttles I am speaking of are the shuttles where he flies over a bunch of hydras... Mini did defended the choke with his reavers. He did it despite the overlords dropping over his reavers, with good probe block and reaver pickups. And how could he have prepared for the 2nd wave when it came only 20 seconds later? By ferrying units over to his own natural? Well maybe, but why not just go for a base trade? He had already bulilt all his gateways on the other side. His gameplan was to dominate there, not to spend half his apm on ferrying units just to defend his natural and main when there are more resources to be taken on the other side of the map. About those two shuttles he lost by flying them over a returning group of hydras in the middle of the map. They probably had some dark templar in them because Mini was similtanously clearing the overlords in the last remaining base for Hero in the down right corner. He also was microing a reaver at Heros natural. This is multitasking protoss style. Its very unforgiven when it goes wrong, but it is what you have to do.. Hero also did mistakes, but it doesnt cost you that much to lose some hydras vs the cost of losing reavers and dark templar does it? You have to make decions at the fractions of a second. Which means that you cannot just stop up and think too hard about what you should do. Intuition has to take over and you have to, as they say in speed-chess - "play with your hands, not with you head". But sure Mini a did bit more mistakes then Hero. And its why he eventually Hero won the game. But if you were to analyze all the micro decisions that were made by Mini throughout that game, the mistakes get outdrowned by all the good ones. This is why i get triggered by your comment that the "only reason that the game was good because of Mini fking it up". Thats literally what you said. Not sure why it bothers you. It was obvious to everyone that mini had the chance to close it out but lost it. I'm sure he even knows that he dropped the ball. The game was good because he let hero stay in it. The game was lost when he took the fight at the middle expo. His last chance and he went for the base with 24 hydras sitting pretty. If this still bothers you, watch flash or JDs restream. Even JD says there is no way hero can get through mini's main. He says it's gg and is surprised when hero actually makes it through. That's how strongly positioned mini was. Then JD yells that mini lost the game when he lost the two shuttles that flew into the hydras. He specifically says mini needed that to clear hero's nat. He specifically says the game has shifted to zerg in that moment. Finally, JD heavily chides mini with strong words when mini goes for the middle expansion where hero is waiting on top with hydras. JD is in disbelief. Jd: wow, mini has too many storms. This fight is the final fight for both players. Hero does not have enough lurkers. Jd: what? Wtf? You are going up here?! You are really going up here? Why aren't you going for the exposed main? That's too many high Templars for hero, but you are going to try and attack here? Jd: hero is saying thank you, a perfect fight for zerg. Stupid. You should have attacked the exposed base, mini. Why didn't you? You just lost too much and now you are behind. You don't have to listen to me but I'm pretty sure JD knows his stuff.
this is great stuff!
thank you, i love reading these quick summaries of what pros thought since i don't know Korean myself. any chance you could do quick summaries of what other pros said too?
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What a fun fifth game. Besides, I still really dislike third world. The island part should be way smaller, otherwise Protoss gets too many free expansions, while the other player starves. Maybe bring the minerals only to the bottom side and give them gas?
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Nice games, especially that final one, but man.... Mini sure is a master of fucking up.
This was even worse than that last game with Snow.
Must be nice for Hero winning that after it looked like there was no way to still win that.
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That game 5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Semifinals & finals.
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On May 14 2018 01:33 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2018 23:08 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:33 Golgotha wrote:On May 13 2018 21:23 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:18 Golgotha wrote:
that game was good because mini kept fking up. hero busted through 6 fking reavers behind a choke with like 6 cannons defending. mini somehow lost all his shit to that crap. then mini loses shuttles full of reavers. then mini attacks up a ramp when another base a screen away is wide open. 4 zealots could have taken it out. You keep forgetting all the small brilliant moves Mini made in that game. Dont be like that. Mini played great under all the pressure. Otherwise he would never had survived as long as he did Everyone does mistakes in bw. Its a game of priorities. If you choose to focus on only the mistakes, you are missing the other good things the player is doing often simultanously. Also, you have to realize that Hero was dropping a lot of hydras over those reavers. How is mini going to micro that? Its impossible. nah man I ain't hating on mini.He was in a dominant position and he dropped the ball big time. he lost 3 shuttles with reavers inside and he couldn't hold a narrow choke with 5+ reavers and 5+ cannons. Mini completely destroyed Hero when hero tried busting through with drops and mass hydra. slaughtered. mini had time to prepare for the 2nd wave of hydras and the 2nd wave didn't even come with drops. mini gave hero enough time to bring up his 2nd wave and run over the 4 reavers. the 2nd wave was a lot less than the 1st, but that led to a base trade. and then Mini has a chance to kill Hero's base with the most drones, but instead he surrounds a base that is on a ramp where ALL o fhero's hydras are. he goes up and dies. he should have shifted his army to the exposed hatch when he saw all those hydras. I ain't saying Mini is some sort of idiot or a loser, hell no. He's a great player and definitely deserves top 4. but he objectively made glaring mistakes in this game when he had the dominant position. imo, he was tilted. edit: he actually lost more shuttles, but the shuttles I am speaking of are the shuttles where he flies over a bunch of hydras... Mini did defended the choke with his reavers. He did it despite the overlords dropping over his reavers, with good probe block and reaver pickups. And how could he have prepared for the 2nd wave when it came only 20 seconds later? By ferrying units over to his own natural? Well maybe, but why not just go for a base trade? He had already bulilt all his gateways on the other side. His gameplan was to dominate there, not to spend half his apm on ferrying units just to defend his natural and main when there are more resources to be taken on the other side of the map. About those two shuttles he lost by flying them over a returning group of hydras in the middle of the map. They probably had some dark templar in them because Mini was similtanously clearing the overlords in the last remaining base for Hero in the down right corner. He also was microing a reaver at Heros natural. This is multitasking protoss style. Its very unforgiven when it goes wrong, but it is what you have to do. Hero also did mistakes, but it doesnt cost you that much to lose some hydras vs the cost of losing reavers and dark templar does it? You have to make decions at the fractions of a second. Which means that you cannot just stop up and think too hard about what you should do. Intuition has to take over and you have to, as they say in speed-chess - "play with your hands, not with you head". But sure Mini a did bit more mistakes then Hero. And its why he eventually Hero won the game. But if you were to analyze all the micro decisions that were made by Mini throughout that game, the mistakes get outdrowned by all the good ones. This is why i get triggered by your comment that the "only reason that the game was good because of Mini fking it up". Thats literally what you said. Not sure why it bothers you. It was obvious to everyone that mini had the chance to close it out but lost it. I'm sure he even knows that he dropped the ball. The game was good because he let hero stay in it. The game was lost when he took the fight at the middle expo. His last chance and he went for the base with 24 hydras sitting pretty. If this still bothers you, watch flash or JDs restream. Even JD says there is no way hero can get through mini's main. He says it's gg and is surprised when hero actually makes it through. That's how strongly positioned mini was. Then JD yells that mini lost the game when he lost the two shuttles that flew into the hydras. He specifically says mini needed that to clear hero's nat. He specifically says the game has shifted to zerg in that moment. Finally, JD heavily chides mini with strong words when mini goes for the middle expansion where hero is waiting on top with hydras. JD is in disbelief. Jd: wow, mini has too many storms. This fight is the final fight for both players. Hero does not have enough lurkers. Jd: what? Wtf? You are going up here?! You are really going up here? Why aren't you going for the exposed main? That's too many high Templars for hero, but you are going to try and attack here? Jd: hero is saying thank you, a perfect fight for zerg. Stupid. You should have attacked the exposed base, mini. Why didn't you? You just lost too much and now you are behind. You don't have to listen to me but I'm pretty sure JD knows his stuff.
He had all the gateways on the other side. None in the main. It's not a given that he was going to be able to defend his natural by ferrying units over. Better than perhaps to leave the main and go for a basetrade, because then you at least can continue the game by being dominate on the other side of the map and taking the recourses there, instead of just typing gg when you fail to ferry enough units over to your natural. He knew the route was clear because he had already killed Heros expanson down there with 4 zealots.
I never said i defended Mini's decision at the end to not go over the bridges, but you said that the only reason the game was good was "because Mini kept fking up". And i disagree strongly on that.
If i'm wrong, i am happy for you to explain to me why i am wrong on that. Mini fought a 40 minute long game and the only reason it was good was because he kept fucking up? Any lesser than a pro would have crumbled along time ago. Hero made mistakes too. Sometimes those mistake were provoked by his opponent or because he is multitasking. During a 40 minute long game between pros you would expect that. For both players to make some mistakes and for both to make many more better ones. Or else the game wont go for much longer than 10 minutes. So why not focus on that? That it was a great game, that BOTH players delivered us.
Jaedong should also know that its much easier for him to sit and watch and evaluate than it is to actually make those same decisions in-game when you have to macro and micro simultanously. Jaedong doesn't have to do that when he is just watching AND is able to see what the opponent is doing the whole time. Mini has to make decision at a split second with limited information. He cannot just stop and analyze the situation. His brain is doing the thinking for him and he has to obey its desicions. Thats how it is under those conditions. You brain is thinking so fast that you cannot be entirely aware of the reasoning behind many decisisons. That is hard. Might Hero be a bit better than Mini at that? Sure, why not? But Mini is still better than 99.9%, so cut him some slack. Be grateful for the great game we had and that for a game to be great - both players need to play great. And in BW, playing great does not mean playing 100% perfect.
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this might have been the most interesting game ever!
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Many a PvZ has been affected by the endless Hydra pump refusing to stop, especially when its by.herO.
It might sound like a lot of harsh words at Mini, but after the mistake in the semi's.. i feel bad for him.
Maybe the layout of the map confuses what would be normal decisions when it comes to basetrading... but thats what has made it interesting.
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Both of the games on Third World were so damn interesting. What a series
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On May 14 2018 01:44 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2018 01:33 Golgotha wrote:On May 13 2018 23:08 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:33 Golgotha wrote:On May 13 2018 21:23 tanngard wrote:On May 13 2018 21:18 Golgotha wrote:
that game was good because mini kept fking up. hero busted through 6 fking reavers behind a choke with like 6 cannons defending. mini somehow lost all his shit to that crap. then mini loses shuttles full of reavers. then mini attacks up a ramp when another base a screen away is wide open. 4 zealots could have taken it out. You keep forgetting all the small brilliant moves Mini made in that game. Dont be like that. Mini played great under all the pressure. Otherwise he would never had survived as long as he did Everyone does mistakes in bw. Its a game of priorities. If you choose to focus on only the mistakes, you are missing the other good things the player is doing often simultanously. Also, you have to realize that Hero was dropping a lot of hydras over those reavers. How is mini going to micro that? Its impossible. nah man I ain't hating on mini.He was in a dominant position and he dropped the ball big time. he lost 3 shuttles with reavers inside and he couldn't hold a narrow choke with 5+ reavers and 5+ cannons. Mini completely destroyed Hero when hero tried busting through with drops and mass hydra. slaughtered. mini had time to prepare for the 2nd wave of hydras and the 2nd wave didn't even come with drops. mini gave hero enough time to bring up his 2nd wave and run over the 4 reavers. the 2nd wave was a lot less than the 1st, but that led to a base trade. and then Mini has a chance to kill Hero's base with the most drones, but instead he surrounds a base that is on a ramp where ALL o fhero's hydras are. he goes up and dies. he should have shifted his army to the exposed hatch when he saw all those hydras. I ain't saying Mini is some sort of idiot or a loser, hell no. He's a great player and definitely deserves top 4. but he objectively made glaring mistakes in this game when he had the dominant position. imo, he was tilted. edit: he actually lost more shuttles, but the shuttles I am speaking of are the shuttles where he flies over a bunch of hydras... Mini did defended the choke with his reavers. He did it despite the overlords dropping over his reavers, with good probe block and reaver pickups. And how could he have prepared for the 2nd wave when it came only 20 seconds later? By ferrying units over to his own natural? Well maybe, but why not just go for a base trade? He had already bulilt all his gateways on the other side. His gameplan was to dominate there, not to spend half his apm on ferrying units just to defend his natural and main when there are more resources to be taken on the other side of the map. About those two shuttles he lost by flying them over a returning group of hydras in the middle of the map. They probably had some dark templar in them because Mini was similtanously clearing the overlords in the last remaining base for Hero in the down right corner. He also was microing a reaver at Heros natural. This is multitasking protoss style. Its very unforgiven when it goes wrong, but it is what you have to do.. Hero also did mistakes, but it doesnt cost you that much to lose some hydras vs the cost of losing reavers and dark templar does it? You have to make decions at the fractions of a second. Which means that you cannot just stop up and think too hard about what you should do. Intuition has to take over and you have to, as they say in speed-chess - "play with your hands, not with you head". But sure Mini a did bit more mistakes then Hero. And its why he eventually Hero won the game. But if you were to analyze all the micro decisions that were made by Mini throughout that game, the mistakes get outdrowned by all the good ones. This is why i get triggered by your comment that the "only reason that the game was good because of Mini fking it up". Thats literally what you said. Not sure why it bothers you. It was obvious to everyone that mini had the chance to close it out but lost it. I'm sure he even knows that he dropped the ball. The game was good because he let hero stay in it. The game was lost when he took the fight at the middle expo. His last chance and he went for the base with 24 hydras sitting pretty. If this still bothers you, watch flash or JDs restream. Even JD says there is no way hero can get through mini's main. He says it's gg and is surprised when hero actually makes it through. That's how strongly positioned mini was. Then JD yells that mini lost the game when he lost the two shuttles that flew into the hydras. He specifically says mini needed that to clear hero's nat. He specifically says the game has shifted to zerg in that moment. Finally, JD heavily chides mini with strong words when mini goes for the middle expansion where hero is waiting on top with hydras. JD is in disbelief. Jd: wow, mini has too many storms. This fight is the final fight for both players. Hero does not have enough lurkers. Jd: what? Wtf? You are going up here?! You are really going up here? Why aren't you going for the exposed main? That's too many high Templars for hero, but you are going to try and attack here? Jd: hero is saying thank you, a perfect fight for zerg. Stupid. You should have attacked the exposed base, mini. Why didn't you? You just lost too much and now you are behind. You don't have to listen to me but I'm pretty sure JD knows his stuff. this is great stuff! thank you, i love reading these quick summaries of what pros thought since i don't know Korean myself. any chance you could do quick summaries of what other pros said too?
Yeah I'll do some more because I also like hearing what the pros think of a certain move and decision.
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Sea watching the fight when mini tries to challenge hero's middle expo:
Toss is in a strong position due to storms and army size. He can wreck the hydras.
Wait what? What?....... Mini what have you done? You should have gone here (the exposed hatch).
Shuttle: he must be feeling a lot of pressure to attack this base.
Sea: no that's fucking crazy and insane to attack here.
Shuttle: it's the high ground, no way he can take this.
Sea: you should have gone to the third. What are you doing sir? What are you doing?
Sea: Now zerg wins, toss has no minerals. Zerg wins now.
Mini you should have attacked the fucking base earlier. Your decision making was utter dog trash. Going up those ramps sealed your doom.
Sea: you lose this game? Really? You lost this?
Sea would not stop talking about mini's poor decision to go up the ramps and not attack the exposed hatch. He keeps going back to it.
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Blunders and all, that final game was the most entertaining ZvP I've seen in a while. What a massively awesome way for our zerg hero to go out.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
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Imbalanced as they might be, you can't say these (semi-)island maps don't deliver good games.
They are really fun to play with friends too. Third eye can be frustrating though.
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Game 5:
"That's BROODWAR for you" - Artosis
DAMN true.
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Holy shit that last game was so sick! Hero an absolute mad man attacking with hydras into a choke with cannons+ 5 reavers!!
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I'm sad he has to go to the military, but as all the progamers say "I want to show good games for my fans"...Hero sure did that.
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Absolutely a amazing feat by Mini, how can you throw that game so hard...
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Man the maps made this series one of the best ever, such a great combination of maps.
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EPT
