ASL5 Ro16 Group Selection Ceremony

On March 27 2018 00:31 BisuDagger wrote:
My prediction is that everyone is too scared to pick Bisu.

On March 27 2018 00:40 tanngard wrote:

Bisu has gone to the military BisuDagger...did it slip your mind?

On March 27 2018 00:40 tanngard wrote:

Bisu has gone to the military BisuDagger...did it slip your mind?

On March 27 2018 01:09 Kuks wrote:
Flash is going to pick MisO first. Ideally he will try to have only Terran and Zerg opponents. His last pick will be actioN.

Larva will pick Shine first. That would would make "his failure complete".

On March 27 2018 01:17 BisuDagger wrote:

I think his decision might change if he knew what round of 8 maps were. If sparkle was discarded after group stages, it may change who he wants to play against.

On March 27 2018 01:17 BisuDagger wrote:

I think his decision might change if he knew what round of 8 maps were. If sparkle was discarded after group stages, it may change who he wants to play against.

On March 27 2018 20:09 M2 wrote:
is the place here to comment on the group selection?

On March 27 2018 20:18 PVJ wrote:

KT telecoms tv brand

On March 27 2018 20:34 oEkY wrote:
i cant understand korean, but i guess rain is actually complaining that he cant pick an ebony girl instead of some Z's or P's, right?

On March 27 2018 20:38 M2 wrote:

watch the english stream

On March 27 2018 20:50 Essbee wrote:
Is Larva trying to give another easy title to flash?

On March 27 2018 20:59 PVJ wrote:
That's not a good pick by Where/Miso as now I'm pretty sure Flash will rather swap Snow than him.

On the other hand, he beat Snow in their Ro24 group so maybe that was what informed his thinking.

On March 27 2018 21:02 M2 wrote:
I was expecting a full zerg and/or protoss group but it did not happen

On March 27 2018 20:45 oEkY wrote:
Group C should be completed with Effort imo ^^

On March 27 2018 21:05 Essbee wrote:
This protoss/zerg fest sucks because it makes players who can barely zvt like shine and hero able to go far, hence making it super easy for flash once again because he has a high change of facing them later on. We need flash to face the likes of effort/larva/stork/jaedong, not zvp snipers... I'm getting pessimistic again but the exact same thing happened last season and I called it at the beginning that it would be hero vs flash in the finals after the group selection... :/

Someone please change my mind

On March 27 2018 21:01 M2 wrote:

Flash will swap snow with something easier like shine, he always draws for the easiest possible group he can get and snow is good vs terrans

On March 27 2018 21:16 Netto. wrote:
If Larva doesn't make out of the group because of these stupid ZvZs, I am gonna be salty as fck. I want him to finally play against Flash in official match.

On March 27 2018 21:19 Levque wrote:
Why is it fun to allow flash to make an easy group for himself and put his true rivals in tough groups? I'll never understand why this group selection process is a good thing for the tournament.

On March 27 2018 21:16 Netto. wrote:
If Larva doesn't make out of the group because of these stupid ZvZs, I am gonna be salty as fck. I want him to finally play against Flash in official match.

On March 27 2018 23:15 Cryoc wrote:
The first and second place finishers of each group are usually reshuffled again for the Ro8 bracket, so the chances to meet each other are equal for everyone. And if you already played in the same group you won't face each other again in the Ro8.

On March 28 2018 02:41 usopsama wrote:
Picking Mind is a smart choice. Flash doesn't have to worry about getting sniped by zerg/protoss on Sparkle.

On March 27 2018 21:05 Essbee wrote:
This protoss/zerg fest sucks because it makes players who can barely zvt like shine and hero able to go far, hence making it super easy for flash once again because he has a high change of facing them later on. We need flash to face the likes of effort/larva/stork/jaedong, not zvp snipers... I'm getting pessimistic again but the exact same thing happened last season and I called it at the beginning that it would be hero vs flash in the finals after the group selection... :/

Someone please change my mind

On March 28 2018 04:34 StylishVODs wrote:

herO is probably the best ZvT player right now and the only one with a good chance of bringing Flash down. This is mainly due to herO being the best at facing the 1-1-1 build. JaeDong, Larva and Effort have been performing badly against it.
As a reference, from the Flash interview article we can see the different zerg players winning percentage against Flash, when Flash mostly used his 1-1-1 build.

herO 31%, 21-46
SoulKey 27%, 12-31
Larva 20%, 29-99
JaeDong 10%, 3-27
Effort 10%, 5-46

The maps and the live pressure can of course change the odds somewhat, but stating that herO can barely zvt is wrong.
Flash has been practicing a lot with herO due to his skill vs the 1-1-1 build.

On March 28 2018 04:06 Cryoc wrote:

Drawing from a pot to determine the matchups between the first and second places is reshuffling. During MSL and OSL times the bracket was always fully determined by the Ro16 finishes, there was no drawing.

On March 28 2018 05:30 TaardadAiel wrote:


And is it just me or Stork is in beast form? Every time I tune in to his channel I see him beating a high-end player. I only saw him losing to Effort.

On March 28 2018 05:45 StylishVODs wrote:


Yes it seems as if Stork is in beast form. Partly due to that enough time has passed since he came back and partly, in my opinion, because Stork's calm and calculated style profits from maps where you have to think outside the box. He was never the fastest player but he plays intelligently, specially in PvT and PvP.

I'd say Flash's biggest threats this season is Stork, Rain and Mini. At least if the maps consists of sparkle, transistor and third world. Stork beat flash over and over on transistor and third world a few days ago. I still hope Flash will solve those maps though.

On March 27 2018 20:18 PVJ wrote:
Who is Larva this time if not McGregor?

On March 27 2018 21:31 Stax736 wrote:
Grp A: Flash, Shine
Grp B: Snow, Stork
Grp C: Jaedong, Larva
Grp D: Movie, Action

On March 26 2018 23:02 Alpha-NP- wrote:
So in about 24 hours, I believe they are going to have the ASL5 Ro16 Group Selection Ceremony. (As soon as group F is done). I think this ceremony is sometimes more fun than watching the players play actual games. Who do you guys think will steal the show and be the nost entertaining? For anyone that doesn't know why it is worth it to watch the ASL5 Group Selection Ceremony, it is kind of like half the Hunger Games and half the Olympics opening ceremony.

The players are introduced and the players pick their opponents. So you get to see the brackets while the players choose them live. There is also a lot of drama as sometimes the players that don't like each other talk smack. It is really good to watch this event if you are new to watching professional tournaments like I am. Enjoy.

On March 28 2018 15:35 Kau wrote:
Since flash swapped snow with shine instead of action, does that mean action is better than shine?

On March 28 2018 15:35 Kau wrote:
Since flash swapped snow with shine instead of action, does that mean action is better than shine?

On March 29 2018 03:50 tanngard wrote:
Yeah I'm really fed up with this group selection thingy. It's unserious. Players should speak through their games only. And why should a reigning champion have these kinds of favours?

On March 29 2018 05:07 BigFan wrote:

It's meant to be a fun environment where the players bargain and try and get the best group. As to why, umm because he's the reigning champion? If Sea, shine or hero won against Flash, they would've had that same benefit instead. The group selection ceremony is one of the funniest parts of ASL where the players can let loose and just be themselves.

On March 29 2018 06:46 tanngard wrote:

The competion should be fair and only be about actual execution of skill concerning the game in question. This would be the same criteria i would ask for any tournament in any given sport. That's just my position.

On March 29 2018 07:41 Dazed. wrote:
?? They've had this showy aspect for years and years and years. 2 post/nobodies bitchy because someone decided to be silly? If you dont like it, dont watch it. Like how in the fuck are you narcissistic enough to imagine your concern over someone being silly matters? To anyone?

~~~~~

I heard sparkles not being used in the next round? What is the map selection, anyone know?

On March 29 2018 06:46 tanngard wrote:

The competion should be fair and only be about actual execution of skill concerning the game in question. This would be the same criteria i would ask for any tournament in any given sport. That's just my position.

On March 29 2018 10:07 Miragee wrote:


Sparkle is going to be replaced by Third World...

On March 29 2018 18:33 StylishVODs wrote:
Well, one can also argue that Flash earned his competitive advantage of getting to choose two players in his group because he won the whole thing. Winning the ASL simply rewards you with money and this group selection advantage.
The result will be that a reigning champion have less change of being knocked out early in the next championship.

When Flash won his first ASL, the other reigning champion had the same advantage but in the end, you have to be able to win your games vs anyone to win the whole thing with any consistency.

I like it this way, it usually means that whoever won last time has a better chance of getting to the Bo5, and usually the audience want to see a reigning champion in a best of 5. The complete opposite would be to let the reigning champion qualify just like anyone else and potentially get knocked out before the round of 24. I dont think people would want that right? So it all comes down to balancing, and currently top 4 have an advantage of being in Ro16 and the winner has extra advantage of choosing his group.

On March 29 2018 03:51 Alpha-NP- wrote:
That game of Sea against Pusan was crazy. Mass Wraiths against Corsairs into Valkyries dominating Corsairs.

On March 29 2018 19:52 Letmelose wrote:


I personally don't see a huge problem with treating every tournament as its own entity, and treating every player as an equal and throwing them to the wolves by subjecting everbody to the same cut throat competition as the rest of the competitive field. Fan favourites get knocked out early all the time, and the whims of the audience shouldn't dictate how the tournament is run ideally speaking, in my opinion.

In my mind, ASL should be an open tournament, not an open qualifier to determine the challenger to the defending champion. Of course, AfreecaTV has a business to run, and it is in their best interests to somewhat rig the tournament to entice the audience with blockbuster best-of-five match-ups. Skilled players already have an advantage in terms of their gaming ability, and they shouldn't need the spoon feeding of the tournament organizers. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially since it could be done by the power of the players themselves instead of the tournament organizers joining the fray as if they were part of the competitive experience.

It somewhat cheapens the experience for me, like when MBC Game studios literally rearranged the entire tournament format to maximize the potential of a Flash versus Jaedong finals, which they got three times in a row (something that would have never happened without the help of the tournament organizers). Sure the two players were totally awesome and were probably deserving of those finals appearances at the time, but you knew deep inside what that format was catered for exactly. Those tournaments had more of a forced show-match nature than conventional tournaments where the luck of the draw could strike literally anyone down.

The defending champions already skip the qualification stages as well as the round of 28, that's something I've come to accept, but I always hated the idea of the defending champion personally hand selecting two of his most preferred round of 16 opponents, because you only need to place above two players to advance to the round of 8. If that is not rigging the brackets, I don't know what is.

For example, I personally don't enjoy the fact that Soulkey was eliminated early on, and feel that he is deserving of a higher placement if his skills were indicative of his results. However, I would be furious if Soulkey was artificially given the opportunity to hand select two of his opponents to battle for a spot in the final 16, instead of being allocated at random in alignment with his seeding.

Winning a championship should be rewarded with being recognized as the best performing player for that particular tournament. Minimizing the chance of an early upset, a huge luxury that is given to nobody else, is too much of a competitive advantage in my opinion. It is like the government taxing the upper class less for being so rich.

On March 29 2018 22:23 StylishVODs wrote:


One important factor here is that you actually have to win the whole thing, from scratch, to get this advantage. So arbitrarily giving SoulKey a favorable Ro16 spot is not exactly the same as him having to win the whole thing from scratch first and then be rewarded with that advantage.

It basically comes down to personal preference as a viewer. For me personally I have no problem with this because I feel that it is "earned" as you win the tournament and I would rather the top players qualify for rounds of Bo5. In a way, it sort of resembles a situation where a champion defends his title. For others, they feel the victory by its own is reward enough (and prize pool of course) and that anyone, to be able to win the whole thing, should compete on even terms. This can be argued back and forth about what is even terms and what is earned and so forth.

To this discussion, however, we can't ignore seeing it from a business perspective like you said. It's perfectly reasonable for a tournament to have these rules based on fan popularity.

On another note though, I could argue that having every player qualify from scratch for each tournament would lead to more new players having a better chance at reaching high into the tournament and thus drawing new blood to the scene, increasing the player pool and audience pool that way in the long run. So also from a business perspective it could be argued both ways.

Given reasonable arguments for both positions, I wouldn't hold a choice one way or the other against the tournament organizers here.

On March 29 2018 23:13 Letmelose wrote:


Well, I specifically mentioned Soulkey since he came second in the Wildcard Tournament for the 4th seed, which technically means that Soulkey was the highest seeded player (5th seed) from the previous season of the ASL out of all the players who competed in the round of 28.

Should he be given the special treatment since he "earned" his highest seed coming into the round of 28? What if he personally selected PuSan and Rush as his preferred opponent of his choice for the round of 28 as the highest seed for that bracket stage? Since a lot of people want to see him compete in the round of 16, shouldn't he be given the preferential treatment as the highest seed out of all the competitors in the round of 28, just as the defending champion is given the preferential treatment within the round of 16?

From a business perspective, it is a sound choice. However, it is a business choice that somewhat cheapens the magnitude of a defending champion winning the league multiple times by extending a helping hand that goes beyond mere seeding. The combination of being seeded mid-way into a bracket and basically rigging the brackets to theoretically provide the best chance of advancing possible (the defending champion doesn't even have to pick the two worst players out of the final 16, he can just select the two who would have the worst match-up against him directly) for the defending champion is a competitive advantage that in my eyes have cheapened the competitive integrity of the ASL that followed the trend from MBC Game StarLeague who always tried their hardest to create franchise stars within their own leagues such as sAviOr.

I personally think it is a reasonable choice to make from a business perspective, but this particular drafting system does not properly align with the idea of a true open championship in my opinion, and merges with the identity of a championship defense and other more show-match type events. Seeding is fine, but allowing players to rig their own brackets is not a privilege that should be welcomed in a supposed open tournament.

On March 29 2018 23:54 StylishVODs wrote:


I understand many of your points and I do agree with a lot of it. As to the argument of "best seed of the Ro28" thing, well, somewhere you have to draw the line. In ASL the line is that the top 4 players get an advantage moving into the next tournament and that the winner gets a special advantage for the Ro16. So if the line is that top 4 players get an advantage, then obviously no advantage is given to the 5th player even if he did better than all the rest. It's just like in any sport where you can win Gold, Silver or Bronze. What about the 4th player, well though luck? Starting with relative performance on different stages in the tournament and having some sort of arbitrary advantage system would be going too far I think. But if a special advantage is to be given to anyone, the most reasonable option would be only to the past winner since that is the ultimate goal of all the participants.

I agree that a seed, such as top 4 getting to the Ro16, is fine though and would also be enough.

As it is right now, ASL is not a "true open championship". However, thats not to say that it's close at all to some show event merely due to this one advantage to the winner. An advantage like that is only likely to consistently have a strong effect on someone that consistently outperforms his peers. Thats why, for example, this advantage didn't help Shuttle enough to win the tournament twice.

I think, maybe if anyone other than Flash won the ASL, this whole thing wouldn't be such an issue, just like when Shuttle got knocked out even after picking opponents in the Ro16. Right now, we can clearly see that almost no one wants to be in Flash's group because the majority of players consider him to be the best.

On March 29 2018 07:41 Dazed. wrote:
?? They've had this showy aspect for years and years and years. 2 post/nobodies bitchy because someone decided to be silly? If you dont like it, dont watch it. Like how in the fuck are you narcissistic enough to imagine your concern over someone being silly matters? To anyone?

~~~~~

I heard sparkles not being used in the next round? What is the map selection, anyone know?

On March 30 2018 06:50 FlaShFTW wrote:
I don't think it is a flaw in the system. If your goal is to win a tournament, why wouldn't you take every advantage you get, no matter how small? I don't understand this concept that comes from people who don't actually play in tournaments. If you're playing at a professional or semi-professional tournament, you take the advantage, end of story. In magic the gathering, if your opponent makes a mistake and the head judge comes over and asks if you want your opponent to take a game loss for their rules violation, 9/10 players will take the win. Why? Because you're playing for a tournament win and money. It's not even shady, it's not even scummy. It's how it's done, it's how to win tournaments.

And remember that sometimes, those who choose their groups have the fortunes go against them. Remember FlaSh in PDPOP MSL? When he drafted sSak, Classic, and Miso? And got smashed 0-2? Does it make the group to get out of easier? Yes. But it doesn't mean he's automatically out already.

On March 30 2018 13:47 NoS-Craig wrote:
Group C looks crazy. Group of death right there. Picking Larva and Shuttle to get through that one.

On March 30 2018 13:58 Miragee wrote:


I don't think Shuttle has a chance to get out of that group now that Sparkle will be replaced by Third World for that round... He would have had a rough time against those 3 zergs anyways and his Ro24 looked quite shaky. But that map change sealed the deal imho.

On March 30 2018 12:10 Letmelose wrote:
It is something that most famously happened in ABCMart MSL, where Hydra was nearly successful in eliminating his most threatening non-seed opponent in Flash by sending him to the group of death.

On March 31 2018 20:22 TornadoSteve wrote:
If I was Flash, i would scare Mini the most.
Guy is in serious shape, he (finally) look good in all the match ups, maps and groups are also perfect for him.

On April 01 2018 08:13 Miragee wrote:


And he got _wrecked_ by Larva in a recent spon-match.