On October 18 2017 05:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: rain vs larva game 4 was a big throw
The biggest throw was game 2 where Larva decided to just go attack Rain's giant army with all his lurkers at Rain's defended third expansion.
I can see calling game 4 a throw at the point where Larva's attack at Rain's three had failed and Rain had just wiped out mining at both of Larva's top bases. That said, I can understand why he did it. He had just gotten absolutely held at bay in the previous game against Larva's crazy defense, and I don't think was feeling comfortable at all taking it to the lategame. Combined with the damage that had been done I think he felt his attack could win it, and gave more to it than he should have.
To me though, Game 4 doesn't really exemplify what I'd call a throw, which is basically doing something really stupid to take an even position to an auto loss, or to take a won position and let you're opponent back in or equal to you with one boneheaded move. Rain's attack was a mistake sure, but it took him from being just a little ahead to back to an even position. It wasn't like he was up 200 supply and 5 bases to 50 supply and one mining base and somehow lost. It was the swing of a moderate advantage to an even game. Larva's swing in G2 was much bigger than Rain's in game 4.
To everyone who's constantly moaning and complaining about a player upsetting another player because he wont have a chance against FlaSh in the finals: shut up. There is no "should have". There is only "happens". A player lost. Maybe he didn't have his A game that day. Maybe the other player was playing stellar that day. Who knows? But to comment that a player shouldn't have won because he's going to get owned further down the tourney, then why play at all? Why would hero even play this tournament knowing he has no chance against FlaSh? Why would 4/5ths of this field play if they knew they had no chance against FlaSh in a BOX down the line? That attitude is terrible, and it undermines the level of practice and skill that the players have had to develop to participate in this tournament. Shame on anyone who tries to belittle or put down players simply because they can't beat FlaSh in BoX.
On October 18 2017 07:14 FlaShFTW wrote: To everyone who's constantly moaning and complaining about a player upsetting another player because he wont have a chance against FlaSh in the finals: shut up. There is no "should have". There is only "happens". A player lost. Maybe he didn't have his A game that day. Maybe the other player was playing stellar that day. Who knows? But to comment that a player shouldn't have won because he's going to get owned further down the tourney, then why play at all? Why would hero even play this tournament knowing he has no chance against FlaSh? Why would 4/5ths of this field play if they knew they had no chance against FlaSh in a BOX down the line? That attitude is terrible, and it undermines the level of practice and skill that the players have had to develop to participate in this tournament. Shame on anyone who tries to belittle or put down players simply because they can't beat FlaSh in BoX.
The bolded mindset is indeed obnoxious and terrible.
I think only a few are actually complaining that way though. As a viewer, it's reasonable to be disappointed that a good player didn't bring his A game to a particular series, as it does reduce the chances of having an incredible finals series. Suprises happen, but I think most of us would agree that a FlaSh vs Bisu or a FlaSh vs EffOrt or a FlaSh vs Larva series have the potential to be much better series than a FlaSh vs herO or FlaSh vs Snow or FlaSh vs Shinee.
I don't think anyone begrudges Hero for winning, but personally I'd rather SK advanced as I would've liked to see him play in the final v Flash or Bisu (assuming one of those two make it).
I think if its against bisu, hero has as good a chance as soulkey. And bisu has a better chance against flash than most people wld like to admit. And mind isn't a freebie for flash either. Would be a big upset but mind has a real shot.
Shame SoulKey lost but ZvZ is a crazy match up. Game 4 was ballsy as fuck, god damn going hatch first again and then holding on to win. Was sad to see him lose the series after such a great game in game 4.
Congrats to Hero though, awesome for him to get a top 4 finish.
On October 18 2017 05:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: good strat for a bo1 where it shows a player can make mass lings,didnt excell lings micro,he just had more.
This just isn't true though. In both games, the ling counts between both players were very similar.
After identical openings, Shine gets to Larva's base first (because he ran his lings straight there through overlord vision rather than carefully skirting around like Larva did) at 19m27s. Shine has 6 lings in Larva's base to Larva's 4. During the course of the battle, Larva hatches 4 more lings while 4 reinforcing lings also arrive for Shine. By the end of that battle, Shine has lost all his attacking lings while Larva has 6 defenders left over. Larva suffers only one drone loss.
Meanwhile, on Shine's side of the map, Larva's 6 attacking lings pick off 2 of Shine's reinforcements. I wouldn't call that luck, since Larva had full vision of Shine's reinforcement route, while being careful not to reveal his own lings to Shine. Thus despite making exactly the same number of lings, Shine has 2 lings instead of 4 to defend his base with, and loses several drones.
They both did the same thing off the same build with the same number of lings - immediately move out to attack while reinforcing/defending with continued ling production. Larva came out way ahead because he played smarter (avoided ovie vision) and micro'd better (in the battle at his own base).
Larva's next attack arrives at 20m45s. He busts a 4 ling concave at the top of the ramp with 6 lings, losing only 1 ling in the process while killing all 4 defenders. Larva moves 4 of his lings in to attack, disrupting mining until 4 lings hatch for Shine. Larva then dances his 4 around while waiting for reinforcements, losing 2 of them in the process. When Larva's reinforcements arrive at 21m24s, it's 6 lings against 6 in Shine's base. Even with a few drones taking shots at Larva's lings, Larva wins the battle with one zergling left over. At this point Shine is so far behind that he just GGs as Larva's next 2 lings arrive.
That should show about as exhaustively as possible that the ling counts were almost identical. Every advantage that Larva got in that game, he earned through smarter/more careful play, and just straight up better micro.
As mentioned before, identical 12 hatch openings. Both make 2 control groups of lings, but Larva positions his lings out on the map, out of EffOrt's vision and near enough to backstab. EffOrt on the other hand parks his lings in his natural. Larva's overlord at EffOrt's natural sees all of EffOrt's lings, but EffOrt doesn't have much info on Larva's ling count.
Larva puts down a creep colony at his natural and begins morphing it to a sunken as soon as EffOrt's other overlord spots it at 53m30s. Seeing only a dozen lings and a morphing sunken, EffOrt immediately sends all his lings to attack, apparently under the impression that Larva is building the sunken colony to compensate for a significant ling deficit.
At 53m44s, EffOrt attacks with 24 lings against Larva's 12 plus a sunken colony, while Larva attacks with 12 lings against basically no defenses whatsoever. I don't think it's necessary to catalog every larva expenditure after that. Larva's defense was obviously impressive, and EffOrt's base was obviously fucked at that point no matter what.
On October 18 2017 05:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Larva vs effort was mean to be more of the same,if effort didnt attack larva will attack him in some kind of all in attack
There is no reason to believe that Larva would have attacked if EffOrt didn't. He wasn't behind economically, so he was under no pressure to pick a fight with EffOrt. More likely, Larva would have kept his lings out on the map for map control and backstab potential.
If it seemed to you like Larva had more lings than his opponents in those games, that is just testament to how much better he used them. After counting basically every ling in both games, I can assure you that he neither all-ined nor even had a greater ling count. In fact, it is rare to see ZvZs in which both players were so closely mirrored as in these two games.
On October 18 2017 04:04 conTAgi0n wrote: Damnit Soulkey, what made you think that was a good time to attack with your mutalisks there in that last game? You had the slower spire, faster second hatch, and you knew hero skipped ling speed, so why pick a fight over his natural so early? And after playing so smart in the previous game too...
Oh well.. in any case I do think Larva looks better in ZvZ than both hero and Soulkey right now, so he is my pick to make it to the finals. I would have rather watched him face off against Soulkey next round for sure, but c'est la vie.
Seriously, that's an incomprehensible move from Soulkey, I just dont understand how it's possible to do it at pro lvl... can someone explain this move please.
Honestly, Soulkey had a lot less information that we did. If we put ourselves in his shoes, it looks like a mirrored build (9pool vs 9pool) in which Soulkey managed to gain map control. Off the back of that map control, he got an earlier natural and what he thought might have been an extra drone or two. With the assumption that both builds were mirrored, there was definitely a chance to bust his opponent there and then just keep flooding scourge until his mutas won out, even with that extra 100 gas that hero saved by not going ling speed (which could have also gone into a fast carapace upgrade and given hero a stronger mid game advantage).
The same sort of thing happened in G1 as well. I'm tending toward believing that Soulkey had no idea he was facing an overpool in both games. From his perspective, it would have looked like a mirrored build where he had the tech advantage and a clear timing window to attack.
On October 18 2017 08:33 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I think if its against bisu, hero has as good a chance as soulkey. And bisu has a better chance against flash than most people wld like to admit. And mind isn't a freebie for flash either. Would be a big upset but mind has a real shot.
Yep. I think in all honesty Bisu might have the best chance against Flash of anyone in this tournament. Certainly his chances are at a minimum at least as good as SK/EffOrt/Larva would have had.
On October 18 2017 04:04 conTAgi0n wrote: Damnit Soulkey, what made you think that was a good time to attack with your mutalisks there in that last game? You had the slower spire, faster second hatch, and you knew hero skipped ling speed, so why pick a fight over his natural so early? And after playing so smart in the previous game too...
Oh well.. in any case I do think Larva looks better in ZvZ than both hero and Soulkey right now, so he is my pick to make it to the finals. I would have rather watched him face off against Soulkey next round for sure, but c'est la vie.
Seriously, that's an incomprehensible move from Soulkey, I just dont understand how it's possible to do it at pro lvl... can someone explain this move please.
Honestly, Soulkey had a lot less information that we did. If we put ourselves in his shoes, it looks like a mirrored build (9pool vs 9pool) in which Soulkey managed to gain map control. Off the back of that map control, he got an earlier natural and what he thought might have been an extra drone or two. With the assumption that both builds were mirrored, there was definitely a chance to bust his opponent there and then just keep flooding scourge until his mutas won out, even with that extra 100 gas that hero saved by not going ling speed (which could have also gone into a fast carapace upgrade and given hero a stronger mid game advantage).
The same sort of thing happened in G1 as well. I'm tending toward believing that Soulkey had no idea he was facing an overpool in both games. From his perspective, it would have looked like a mirrored build where he had the tech advantage and a clear timing window to attack.
In G1 Soulkey's lings ran into a half-done hatchery at Hero's nat, and in G3 the overlord saw all the initial lings spawn, so Soulkey knew what opening build he was against 100% in both of those games.
On October 18 2017 04:04 conTAgi0n wrote: Damnit Soulkey, what made you think that was a good time to attack with your mutalisks there in that last game? You had the slower spire, faster second hatch, and you knew hero skipped ling speed, so why pick a fight over his natural so early? And after playing so smart in the previous game too...
Oh well.. in any case I do think Larva looks better in ZvZ than both hero and Soulkey right now, so he is my pick to make it to the finals. I would have rather watched him face off against Soulkey next round for sure, but c'est la vie.
Seriously, that's an incomprehensible move from Soulkey, I just dont understand how it's possible to do it at pro lvl... can someone explain this move please.
Honestly, Soulkey had a lot less information that we did. If we put ourselves in his shoes, it looks like a mirrored build (9pool vs 9pool) in which Soulkey managed to gain map control. Off the back of that map control, he got an earlier natural and what he thought might have been an extra drone or two. With the assumption that both builds were mirrored, there was definitely a chance to bust his opponent there and then just keep flooding scourge until his mutas won out, even with that extra 100 gas that hero saved by not going ling speed (which could have also gone into a fast carapace upgrade and given hero a stronger mid game advantage).
The same sort of thing happened in G1 as well. I'm tending toward believing that Soulkey had no idea he was facing an overpool in both games. From his perspective, it would have looked like a mirrored build where he had the tech advantage and a clear timing window to attack.
In G1 Soulkey's lings ran into a half-done hatchery at Hero's nat, and in G3 the overlord saw all the initial lings spawn, so Soulkey knew what opening build he was against 100% in both of those games.
Fair. I still have to believe there's a reason why he went all-in in both games. I don't think it had to do with him just going retarded for a second, I think he actually had a reason for doing it...just having trouble pinpointing what it is.
On October 18 2017 04:04 conTAgi0n wrote: Damnit Soulkey, what made you think that was a good time to attack with your mutalisks there in that last game? You had the slower spire, faster second hatch, and you knew hero skipped ling speed, so why pick a fight over his natural so early? And after playing so smart in the previous game too...
Oh well.. in any case I do think Larva looks better in ZvZ than both hero and Soulkey right now, so he is my pick to make it to the finals. I would have rather watched him face off against Soulkey next round for sure, but c'est la vie.
Seriously, that's an incomprehensible move from Soulkey, I just dont understand how it's possible to do it at pro lvl... can someone explain this move please.
Honestly, Soulkey had a lot less information that we did. If we put ourselves in his shoes, it looks like a mirrored build (9pool vs 9pool) in which Soulkey managed to gain map control. Off the back of that map control, he got an earlier natural and what he thought might have been an extra drone or two. With the assumption that both builds were mirrored, there was definitely a chance to bust his opponent there and then just keep flooding scourge until his mutas won out, even with that extra 100 gas that hero saved by not going ling speed (which could have also gone into a fast carapace upgrade and given hero a stronger mid game advantage).
The same sort of thing happened in G1 as well. I'm tending toward believing that Soulkey had no idea he was facing an overpool in both games. From his perspective, it would have looked like a mirrored build where he had the tech advantage and a clear timing window to attack.
In G1 Soulkey's lings ran into a half-done hatchery at Hero's nat, and in G3 the overlord saw all the initial lings spawn, so Soulkey knew what opening build he was against 100% in both of those games.
Fair. I still have to believe there's a reason why he went all-in in both games. I don't think it had to do with him just going retarded for a second, I think he actually had a reason for doing it...just having trouble pinpointing what it is.
Well he was at a BO disadvantage both times, which is difficult to come back from in ZvZ, so there's that lol.
On October 18 2017 07:14 FlaShFTW wrote: To everyone who's constantly moaning and complaining about a player upsetting another player because he wont have a chance against FlaSh in the finals: shut up. There is no "should have". There is only "happens". A player lost. Maybe he didn't have his A game that day. Maybe the other player was playing stellar that day. Who knows? But to comment that a player shouldn't have won because he's going to get owned further down the tourney, then why play at all? Why would hero even play this tournament knowing he has no chance against FlaSh? Why would 4/5ths of this field play if they knew they had no chance against FlaSh in a BOX down the line? That attitude is terrible, and it undermines the level of practice and skill that the players have had to develop to participate in this tournament. Shame on anyone who tries to belittle or put down players simply because they can't beat FlaSh in BoX.
This actually made me a bit shamed. You are right, all we can do now is hope for close and good games!
On October 18 2017 07:14 FlaShFTW wrote: To everyone who's constantly moaning and complaining about a player upsetting another player because he wont have a chance against FlaSh in the finals: shut up. There is no "should have". There is only "happens". A player lost. Maybe he didn't have his A game that day. Maybe the other player was playing stellar that day. Who knows? But to comment that a player shouldn't have won because he's going to get owned further down the tourney, then why play at all? Why would hero even play this tournament knowing he has no chance against FlaSh? Why would 4/5ths of this field play if they knew they had no chance against FlaSh in a BOX down the line? That attitude is terrible, and it undermines the level of practice and skill that the players have had to develop to participate in this tournament. Shame on anyone who tries to belittle or put down players simply because they can't beat FlaSh in BoX.
The bolded mindset is indeed obnoxious and terrible.
I think only a few are actually complaining that way though. As a viewer, it's reasonable to be disappointed that a good player didn't bring his A game to a particular series, as it does reduce the chances of having an incredible finals series. Suprises happen, but I think most of us would agree that a FlaSh vs Bisu or a FlaSh vs EffOrt or a FlaSh vs Larva series have the potential to be much better series than a FlaSh vs herO or FlaSh vs Snow or FlaSh vs Shinee.
Am I the only one who was very, very impressed by the pathing and timing of HerO's lings in game 3 on CF? He knew for absolutely certain when and where SK would have ovies - and he was really precise with sight ranges, too - and took maximum advantage from that. Actually, why is this the meta on 2 player maps - not sending the overlord to the other guy's main? Especially on CF, where you have two ways out of the front yard natural? Nothing happens without reason on such high-level play, but I don't have a clue, really.
EPT
