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United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Excited to play in this and do better than my last two performances.
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damn those day stealing TOs!
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
Alternative is not the best map. Andromeda is nice though.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 15 2017 06:39 aiwekas wrote:
Did you edit out your post? I never got chance to respond, but I'd like to now.
I respect your opinion that people may feel if a Korean signs up then they're automatically going to win and I've seen a few people that do just give up when that happens and while I feel I can understand, there's already foreign player only tours and I want to offer something different.
I want to offer a tour where anyone is able to sign up, play and have fun. I want people to have a place where they can learn to play against Korean players in series play. An opportunity that they get in very few other places. If it does become enough of a problem and enough people want me to change my stance I will, but I personally feel that Shinee and Scan are not unbeatable. I think we have players outside of Korea that can beat them and I can't wait to see the storyline of the tournament when it happens!
That's just me though. I run this tournament in the end of the day to get more people playing the game more often. I hope as many people who want to play do sign up and everyone has a good time ^^
If the fact the tournament is open to everyone puts you off, please let me know.
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On October 16 2017 16:10 Qikz wrote: I want to offer a tour where anyone is able to sign up, play and have fun. I want people to have a place where they can learn to play against Korean players in series play. An opportunity that they get in very few other places. If it does become enough of a problem and enough people want me to change my stance I will, but I personally feel that Shinee and Scan are not unbeatable. I think we have players outside of Korea that can beat them and I can't wait to see the storyline of the tournament when it happens!
If the fact the tournament is open to everyone puts you off, please let me know.
I have some feelings stirring around in me that want to come out of my fingers and onto this canvas which is teamliquid forums. My post is the paintbrush, my brain the palette of colors.
First and foremost, and to preface what I'm about to say, I want to remark that your attitude is very healthy and I respect that you're willing to change and listen to feedback. At the end of the day the tournament organizer decides how their tournaments should be played, but I feel like quite a few Brood War tournament organizers have been stubborn or get offended too easily with criticism. They seem to take suggestions towards their tournaments as personal insults, and have the mindset of "why should I host tournaments or put up my money as a prize when I get disrespected?", when in reality that isn't the situation at all. I'm going to name names, and say this was the case for Filthyrake and BasetradeTV as large examples of this. Correct, you have every right to run your tournament how you want, and what you do with your money-- but players and viewers also have every right to find issue with how the tournament is run, or if it is worth watching. I am incredibly appreciative of all tournament organizers: schamtoo, filthyrake, basetradetv, psyonic_reaver, the list goes on. However, while appreciated, you aren't doing us some huge favor just because you run a tournament. The players nor viewers owe you anything just because you voluntarily put up your own time and money to host an event. Doing so is your prerogative, and if you are looking to get your dick sucked, you can always do it somewhere else. This is just a blanket statement to every TO, and something I hope people running tournaments become more enlightened about.
As someone who ran a league, put up my own money and time, and dealt with over 20 pages of criticism before, I am not naive or unaware of this situation. I am speaking from multiple points of views here, and I am writing this not in direct response to Clash For Char, but as a generalization heading forward for ALL foreign tournaments. I made changes based on feedback, and I also put my foot down and stood against criticism that I did not agree with. I learned a lot of valuable lessons through the experience. I hosted the league out of my love for the game, and my love for the community. That is the one and only true reason someone should host a tournament or event.
However, moving forward, as someone who has been around for a little over a year now and paying attention to all the foreign-run tournaments, I want to put my personal opinion down about Koreans as a viewer and player. First, no one is lacking experience in playing against Koreans. Anyone at 2k MMR+ most likely has over half of their matches against Koreans in matchmaking. I have played against Scan in Have At You! before, and although I was humbled to be able to play against him, it was not an eye opening experience or a particular privilege to do so. As a viewer, I am so tired of watching tournaments with Scan in them. I have massive respect for Scan, I have subbed to his twitch channel multiple times and love watching him play on ladder verse other Koreans. However, Scan has over a 90% winrate in finals, and they are almost never good games. Trutacz or Eonzerg vs Scan makes for some of the most anticlimactic matches ever. I have found myself more and more frequently turning off the stream to tournaments for finals when Scan is playing. I'm sure there are dozens of arguments and good reasons for Scan and Koreans to be able to enter these tournaments, but here is the reality: The vast majority of the time Scan is the only Korean to enter these tournaments, and the vast majority of the time when he is on stream, the games are not enjoyable to watch. This is my personal feeling on the matter.
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Seems most people don't want Koreans in.
I am not a smart person, but I think if Qikz needs to make a decision maybe he could check out the numbers? Viewer count, donations, number of players. And compare them from Clash to Clash, based on Koreans that entered/won.
Personally I want CfC to be open to everyone, but if less people enter to play, or someone like Scan stomps all over the finals every single time... maybe it isn't worth it?
EDIT: Looking at the flood of opinions coming in below me I've basically changed my mind about checking the stats. CfC I believe is meant just for fun, so I think Qikz should do whatever he pleases and not worry. There are enough tournaments of all kinds, the most important bit is strengthening the foreign community, and a fun tournament like CfC does just that.
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In non-Korean events, Scan has 106 wins and 3 losses, and of those 3, one is to Shinee, who is 11-0. I'd rather not watch him anymore either. I can watch Koreans anytime.
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On October 16 2017 18:32 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2017 16:10 Qikz wrote: I want to offer a tour where anyone is able to sign up, play and have fun. I want people to have a place where they can learn to play against Korean players in series play. An opportunity that they get in very few other places. If it does become enough of a problem and enough people want me to change my stance I will, but I personally feel that Shinee and Scan are not unbeatable. I think we have players outside of Korea that can beat them and I can't wait to see the storyline of the tournament when it happens!
If the fact the tournament is open to everyone puts you off, please let me know. + Show Spoiler + I have some feelings stirring around in me that want to come out of my fingers and onto this canvas which is teamliquid forums. My post is the paintbrush, my brain the palette of colors.
First and foremost, and to preface what I'm about to say, I want to remark that your attitude is very healthy and I respect that you're willing to change and listen to feedback. At the end of the day the tournament organizer decides how their tournaments should be played, but I feel like quite a few Brood War tournament organizers have been stubborn or get offended too easily with criticism. They seem to take suggestions towards their tournaments as personal insults, and have the mindset of "why should I host tournaments or put up my money as a prize when I get disrespected?", when in reality that isn't the situation at all. I'm going to name names, and say this was the case for Filthyrake and BasetradeTV as large examples of this. Correct, you have every right to run your tournament how you want, and what you do with your money-- but players and viewers also have every right to find issue with how the tournament is run, or if it is worth watching. I am incredibly appreciative of all tournament organizers: schamtoo, filthyrake, basetradetv, psyonic_reaver, the list goes on. However, while appreciated, you aren't doing us some huge favor just because you run a tournament. The players nor viewers owe you anything just because you voluntarily put up your own time and money to host an event. Doing so is your prerogative, and if you are looking to get your dick sucked, you can always do it somewhere else. This is just a blanket statement to every TO, and something I hope people running tournaments become more enlightened about.
As someone who ran a league, put up my own money and time, and dealt with over 20 pages of criticism before, I am not naive or unaware of this situation. I am speaking from multiple points of views here, and I am writing this not in direct response to Clash For Char, but as a generalization heading forward for ALL foreign tournaments. I made changes based on feedback, and I also put my foot down and stood against criticism that I did not agree with. I learned a lot of valuable lessons through the experience. I hosted the league out of my love for the game, and my love for the community. That is the one and only true reason someone should host a tournament or event.
However, moving forward, as someone who has been around for a little over a year now and paying attention to all the foreign-run tournaments, I want to put my personal opinion down about Koreans as a viewer and player. First, no one is lacking experience in playing against Koreans. Anyone at 2k MMR+ most likely has over half of their matches against Koreans in matchmaking. I have played against Scan in Have At You! before, and although I was humbled to be able to play against him, it was not an eye opening experience or a particular privilege to do so. As a viewer, I am so tired of watching tournaments with Scan in them. I have massive respect for Scan, I have subbed to his twitch channel multiple times and love watching him play on ladder verse other Koreans. However, Scan has over a 90% winrate in finals, and they are almost never good games. Trutacz or Eonzerg vs Scan makes for some of the most anticlimactic matches ever. I have found myself more and more frequently turning off the stream to tournaments for finals when Scan is playing. I'm sure there are dozens of arguments and good reasons for Scan and Koreans to be able to enter these tournaments, but here is the reality: The vast majority of the time Scan is the only Korean to enter these tournaments, and the vast majority of the time when he is on stream, the games are not enjoyable to watch. This is my personal feeling on the matter.
As a tournament organizer, I actually like Faust's post a lot and as someone with a lot of experience in this, I can say that running a tournament is hard. For the most part, it's easy to take the complaints about the event (and yet some organizers have failed to put up with it), there is a lot worse than people criticizing you for allowing Koreans and bad map choices. + Show Spoiler +It gets much harder when people you've spoken to and played with for years stop talking or unfriend you because of tournament decisions that you make because they feel they've been treated unfairly.
With that being said, every tournament organizer is due for a burnout at some point unless they have some isolation or objectivity to what they're presenting. So, wherever you can, you want to make it as easy on yourself as possible, if many people are complaining about something that is an easy fix, just fix it. The decision to allow Koreans is a personal choice and has nothing to do with what is better for the event and for the players. It's such an easy fix. Objective choices are + Show Spoiler +sometimes difficult, but are always better.
I'm not a top level player, so my opinion doesn't hold that much weight on whether or not you should allow Koreans, but as a viewer I don't consider this to be a serious tournament because anyone can be knocked out just due to brackets. If I was a player, I would not play in the event. Or, if I was super dedicated to proving a point, I would sit on 4 workers until the Korean player killed me. Ladder is for practice, if anyone wants to play against Koreans who are better than them, they just need to queue for a ladder game.
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hmm.. "Ladder is for practice, if anyone wants to play against Koreans who are better than them, they just need to queue for a ladder game." wat? Isnt that argument pretty much viable for every player from every country and therefore meaningless?
I play only Starcraft and Street Fighter seriously. In Starcraft, the Koreans are dominating, in Street Fighter, the japanese dominated for a long time. Did the rest of the world ban them from their tournaments or did capcom ban them from CPT-events outside japan or asia? Ofcourse not, playing them in a competitive environment was/is the only way to improve for the rest of the world. And there are world champions from all over the world nowadays. Sure, most SF-tournaments are offline events, and lag is a serious factor in online play. But lag can't be the main reason for the ban of koreans, since as far as i know, there are more distant/laggy countries participating and nobody wants to ban them.
Does the Starcraft community really need a korean free safe space?
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On October 17 2017 02:19 [AS]Rattus wrote: hmm.. "Ladder is for practice, if anyone wants to play against Koreans who are better than them, they just need to queue for a ladder game." wat? Isnt that argument pretty much viable for every player from every country and therefore meaningless?
I play only Starcraft and Street Fighter seriously. In Starcraft, the Koreans are dominating, in Street Fighter, the japanese dominated for a long time. Did the rest of the world ban them from their tournaments or did capcom ban them from CPT-events outside japan or asia? Ofcourse not, playing them in a competitive environment was/is the only way to improve for the rest of the world. And there are world champions from all over the world nowadays. Sure, most SF-tournaments are offline events, and lag is a serious factor in online play. But lag can't be the main reason for the ban of koreans, since as far as i know, there are more distant/laggy countries participating and nobody wants to ban them.
Does the Starcraft community really need a korean free safe space?
To be honest, comparing a game with funding for offline events and world championships to the starcraft scene of the past 7 years doesn't make much sense. If LANs like ESL and ZOTAC continue, then I fully support the scenes being more integrated, but never in the history of BW have we had that luxury outside of Korea (even before Starcraft 2). There are a couple standout events (WCG, TSL and TSL2), but otherwise, not much...
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On October 17 2017 02:19 [AS]Rattus wrote: Does the Starcraft community really need a korean free safe-zone?
This is not the point at all, never was, nor will be. People who are pro-Korean for these foreigner tournaments use this strawman fallacy time and time again to the point where I have stopped reading threads where the topic gets brought up. There are so many reasons for region-locked tournaments. Let me ask this to anyone who feels this way:
Italian Open ($16,000 prize pool) is region locked to EU for qualifiers. Is it because they need an American safe-zone? ZOTAC Cup ($20,000 prize pool) is region locked to NA/SA. Is it because they need a European safe-zone?
Now let me ask this:
Teamliquid Opens are region locked to not include KR/CN. Is it because they need a safe-zone?
The answer is obviously no to all the above questions. If the Italian Open and ZOTAC Cup can region lock to not include the Americas and Europe, no one would say for a moment that it is because they need a "safe-zone". So why would people assume this is the only case for Korea or China? I really don't know. Here are valid reasons why:
1. Better for the viewers - Most of us who tune into these foreign tournaments also tune into Race Survival Wars, AJAE League, ASL, and progamer showmatches. It isn't personal, and it has nothing to do with Koreans themselves. Viewers just like watching good games. The argument that "foreigners need to get better" is somewhat valid, but the reality is we are not at the level of Koreans, it is unlikely we ever will be, and as long as that is truth, it is also valid to say that in no foreseeable future will having Koreans in foreign tournaments produce good games. It isn't exciting to watch a match that you know the result of beforehand, nor is it enjoyable to watch a one-sided match. 2. More opportunities for foreigners - The Korean community is way bigger than the foreign community. They have a lot of opportunities, tournaments, and events that we do not have access to. On 1.16.1, ICCup peaked at 400 users a day, meanwhile Fish Server peaked at around 20,000. There are a ton of tournaments that are Korean-exclusive, and I do not think anyone would say that they need a "foreign free safe-zone". Sounds silly, doesn't it? By region-locking Koreans, you aren't hurting the Korean community, only helping grow the foreign community. 3. It grows the community and promotes participation - This is to emphasize and add on to the last sentence, but it needs to be said that no matter what you tell yourself, people are less likely to participate in events where Scan or Koreans are in it. Every tournament Scan is in, he gets casted. He has a ton of air time, and all the other people who enter the tournament have that much less of a chance to be on stream. As a viewer, I'd love to see people from all over the world in these tournaments. However, tournament organizers not only have to cast Scan in the finals, but usually they follow Scan and other Koreans starting from the very first round to the point where almost 50% or above of the cast is watching Scan play. It is downright ridiculous, and I would no sooner turn off a Korean tournament that only has Flash shitting on the lesser skilled Koreans like MIsO, Lazy, Ample, Force[Name], Tyson, etc than I do when Scan is being streamed from almost start to finish.
I could go on and on, and I'm just touching the surface here.
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The latency is the only problem the way I see it. I have played vs Scan on ladder too, so i can sympathize with anyone drawing him in a tournament. Scan vs european top zergs will be zvt on high or extra high latency. This means the zergs will be at a disadvantage so great that trying to play a standard game would be a stupid choice. And a ling all in won't work. Might aswell just gg in that case. If Scan moved to europe/NA or latency to korea improved then I would see no problem in koreans playing. EDIT: I would see less problems in koreans playing
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Norway28561 Posts
The latency is a fair point. Tbh the skill is a fair point too. But me personally, I've been sad about never being matched vs scan or shinee. Both previous tourneys I played in where shinee or scan were playing, when I looked at the bracket, I just went like 'damnit' because I was in the other half.
I think it's important that we have some 'region locked' events, and that we have some tourneys where everyone but koreans can play. Fighting to be the best outside korea, or the best in europe, or the best in your country, or top 10 outside korea, or top 10 in europe, all of these can feel strongly motivating. And it does grow stale if one or two koreans win every single tournament.
But not all tourneys need to be region locked. I think the series where Bonyth beat Scan in the Have At You #5 finals was one of the most entertaining and exhilarating I've seen for many years. When Terror looked like he was gonna win game 1 against shinee in CFC#5, that was also amazing. Koreans can't play in the TLOpen, they haven't played in any of the ESL weekly tourneys, there's the big north american zotac cup, and the italian esports qualifier was free of koreans, even if there's one invite for the offline tourney. (But even winning one of the qualifier spots is worth more than winning all 7 CFC's so far). I think it's fair if you keep doing what you're doing, and I'm gonna keep signing up whenever I have the time to play, both because you have the coolest map pool and because I'm enough of a sadist to find the idea of moneyking insulting me while slapping me around mercilessly quite appealing.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Thanks for all the words! For now it's not too impactful as not too many people have signed up, but I'll take all your opinions on board and see what I'm going to do moving forward.
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Qikz + sayle made amazing job with good cast Tlopens tourneys and i enjoy + donate for sayle ( cuz you not in list to donate Qikz ) what i rly like in TLopens cuz u dont know who will win for me it was so good tourney thats what i missing in clash for char ( cuz if scan join he win if shinee join he win) i never watch final when this koreans been play cuz no fun.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Here's the matcherino link for this week!
https://matcherino.com/tournaments/8480/description
Looking at the statistics, the prize pool has gone up every single week with the highest being $200 a few weeks ago. Thank you everyone for donating, taking part and watching thus far!
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As Eriador and others have said, there are many tournaments available that exclude Koreans, so I don't think they need to be excluded here. In any event, from what I've seen, Scan is not at the level that he's unbeatable. I think one large problem is that our current "top" foreigners are psychologically weak. Every thread I see where this is discussed (well, most) involve a whole lot of whining from these individuals. Playing Scan should be viewed as a challenge to overcome, not a foregone conclusion. If you literally need the $100 from winning one of these tournaments to survive, then you need to go find an actual job (realize that I am being facetious, but also somewhat serious). I understand the latency problems, but other than that, man up. And frankly, from the games I've watched—not withstanding the advent of new build orders and changes in how matchups are played—the level of skill in the non-korean scene seems much lower than it was when I last played and followed BW (late 2009). I know someone is going to come tell me how wrong I am, and maybe that's true and I'll come around as I start to pay more attention and play more, but that's how I see it right now.
On another note, I watched one game where Trutacz had Scan 100% beaten with a 2 hatch muta build. I don't know the modern maps so I don't know what the map was so as to point others to the game, but it was a couple of weeks back. Trutacz proceeded to royally fuck up his chance to win and threw the game. The point, however, is that he could and should have won. Scan is not invincible.
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