EPT[ASL4] Ro16 Group B - Page 16
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PLoveZerg
2 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 27 2017 23:37 Dazed. wrote: Im surprised everyone is saying effort plays smart, and is good at crisis management, because he seems the total opposite from all the games ive seen. When he loses, he loses like an idiot, not reacting properly to what he sees or repeating the same opener game after game in a series. He seems like a less intelligent savior -- capable of strong macro, mechanical play, but too robotic, and too reliant on falling back on safety builds. I've seen him win tons of scrappy games with nothing other than mechanics and speed, after falling way behind because he scouted something and yet hardly reacted to it and took massive damage. EffOrt tries his hardest to outsmart and outplay the enemy to the maximum. Of course he's going to caught with his pants down more often than not, considering how fickle his general play-style tends to be. It's easy to slight a player by categorizing their flaws. Try forcing yourself to watch thirty games of sAviOr from 2008 or early 2009 (before he got involved in match-fixing) in any order you see fit. Most would probably would want to bleach their own eyeballs after the experience. The last time sAviOr looked anything remotely close to intelligent against top tier competition was when his build orders and his understanding of the gaming paradigm were years ahead of his time. Once he had to outsmart, and out-skill someone on an even footing, he was nothing special. Of course, there's tremendous genius to what sAviOr did during his prime, there's not many who can match the dude in terms of talent. However, what EffOrt does is far harder to replicate by other players, and even EffOrt himself cannot sustain it all the time. There's nothing revolutionary about EffOrt's play, and nor is his approach an all-encompassing algorithm for lesser players to imitate, and immediately reap the rewards from. There's subtle nuances and constant mind-games, coupled with confidence in his own ability to outplay the enemy. It's an extremely captivating play-style, and it's pretty odd to liken him as a less intelligent sAviOr, as if EffOrt was a student of his. sAviOr himself will tell you EffOrt was unlike the other zergs on CJ Entus, and EffOrt tried to do develop his own style, instead of copying sAviOr. It's one thing to see not much worth in EffOrt's philosophy for the game, but to liken it to a lesser version of what made sAviOr stand out, seems like a sub-optimal comparison in my opinion. If you're not going to be convinced by random nobodies, perhaps some quotes by fellow ex-professionals might persuade you. There are more, but I can't be bothered to search for quotes that I can't remember in precise detail, or find the exact wordings for. Flash: "EffOrt is by far the best at playing from behind, he knows how to take risks. When he is at his best not even I can stop him." Shine: "Tailored for messy games. In terms of smartness, no zerg player comes close." Sea: "There is something special about EffOrt, I felt that ever since his professional days." Bisu: "There is a narrative to each and every one of EffOrt's games." | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 28 2017 00:49 Dazed. wrote: Actually saviour only fell off after summer of 2008, his zvp peak was after bisu not before it, and he reached ro8 or semis in msl osl losing to mind and fbh 2-3, he all killed in 2010 more than a few times and by all accounts he wasn't practicing after 09. Strangely enough quote mining people trying to be nice doesn't convince me efforts strengths are anywhere outside of the mechanical. The amazing zerg-versus-protoss peak of sAviOr, during which he becomes the only championship winning player in history to lose a best-of-series to a non-Korean player at WCG 2007. His mighty opponent, PJ, who had a 0-10 record versus zerg players in professional games, humiliates sAviOr by defeating him with carriers. Why are you mentioning sAviOr's results in 2007, the same year he hit his career peak by reaching the finals of both the individual leagues? Are you trying to say sAviOr several months after his absolute peak as a professional gamer wasn't total garbage? Wow! The audacity of me to question the greatness of sAviOr! If you're going to make shit up, be more original with it. What's so mind-blowing about non-existent All-Kills? At least fabricate some achievements more grandiose than something even nOtice managed to achieve. sAviOr never had an All-Kill in a ProLeague setting, not even once. Unless reality is somehow different for sAviOr, and three kills count as an All-Kill. Finally, if these players were merely trying to be nice, wouldn't they try to praise the amazing mechanical ability of EffOrt? Think about it. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On September 28 2017 00:30 Letmelose wrote: Of course he's going to caught with his pants down more often than not, considering how fickle his general play-style tends to be. Totally agreed with this. Effort lives on edge, he knows he's good in scrappy situations, and he plays to create these. In a way, this is the kinda the opposite of a safer macro playstyle, like Zero and Soulkey seem to be more comfortable with. I guess this is why people tend to downplay his desicion making/adaptive play, since it's easier to look stupid when his stuff doesn't work (and easy to attribute scrappy wins to his APM). This said, I think Larva looked promising in their game, he had the whole situation planned out just like it worked. I hope he can show similar games and preparation from Ro8 onwards. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 28 2017 01:14 Letmelose wrote: Savior wasnt at his peak in mid to late 2007, he peaked in 06. Im saying that savior wasnt just at his peak, caught up to, and then looked like shit afterwards because thats the nature of a macro zerg whos not killing each timing. It isnt. Savior declined gradually, in some matchups faster than others, and then collapsed utterly when he literally ceased practicing. Imaginary all kills? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=135&part=games&vs=all&league=162&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=24&to_year=2009&to_month=2&to_day=7&action=Update Well your right, he merely got two three kills back to back. Meaningless distinction. The amazing zerg-versus-protoss peak of sAviOr, during which he becomes the only championship winning player in history to lose a best-of-series to a non-Korean player at WCG 2007. His mighty opponent, PJ, who had a 0-10 record versus zerg players in professional games, humiliates sAviOr by defeating him with carriers. Why are you mentioning sAviOr's results in 2007, the same year he hit his career peak by reaching the finals of both the individual leagues? Are you trying to say sAviOr several months after his absolute peak as a professional gamer wasn't total garbage? Wow! The audacity of me to question the greatness of sAviOr! If you're going to make shit up, be more original with it. What's so mind-blowing about non-existent All-Kills? At least fabricate some achievements more grandiose than something even nOtice managed to achieve. sAviOr never had an All-Kill in a ProLeague setting, not even once. Unless reality is somehow different for sAviOr, and three kills count as an All-Kill. Finally, if these players were merely trying to be nice, wouldn't they try to praise the amazing mechanical ability of EffOrt? Think about it. Point I was making is this; zerg as a race generally loses pretty badly when they lose, if your an aggro player you look terrible when it fails, when your a macro player you look terrible when you misjudge the timing and you die -- thats true of everyone, its not unique to effort or saviors management style. But when has effort played a strategically brilliant game? Where are these games im missing? He plays standard management every game, repetitiously so, and when he loses, its almost always due to an early game disadvantage he suffered by mis judging timings. Thats exactly the opposite of a strategically minded player. What exactly is holding effort back, in your eyes, by the way? Clearly its not his mechanics, yet he fails anyway...which leaves decision making. As to the quotes-- only one of those quotes arent vague and general, and I dont know the authenticity of them at all [you come off like an asshole, not a trustworthy person]. Bisus statement amounts to nothing, as every game has a narrative. Every top progamer can take games or series off flash, and many have done so, those who cant have no right being there at all. So one guy called him smart -- maybe -- ergo now hes a strategically gifted player, despite, to my knowledge, literally never showing that as his primary strength. What a convincing argument you give... | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:05 Dazed. wrote: Savior wasnt at his peak in mid to late 2007, he peaked in 06. Im saying that savior wasnt just at his peak, caught up to, and then looked like shit afterwards because thats the nature of a macro zerg whos not killing each timing. It isnt. Savior declined gradually, in some matchups faster than others, and then collapsed utterly when he literally ceased practicing. Imaginary all kills? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=135&part=games&vs=all&league=162&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=24&to_year=2009&to_month=2&to_day=7&action=Update Well your right, he merely got two three kills back to back. Meaningless distinction. Point I was making is this; zerg as a race generally loses pretty badly when they lose, if your an aggro player you look terrible when it fails, when your a macro player you look terrible when you misjudge the timing and you die -- thats true of everyone, its not unique to effort or saviors management style. But when has effort played a strategically brilliant game? Where are these games im missing? He plays standard management every game, repetitiously so, and when he loses, its almost always due to an early game disadvantage he suffered by mis judging timings. Thats exactly the opposite of a strategically minded player. What exactly is holding effort back, in your eyes, by the way? Clearly its not his mechanics, yet he fails anyway...which leaves decision making. As to the quotes-- only one of those quotes arent vague and general, and I dont know the authenticity of them at all [you come off like an asshole, not a trustworthy person]. Bisus statement amounts to nothing, as every game has a narrative. Every top progamer can take games or series off flash, and many have done so, those who cant have no right being there at all. So one guy called him smart -- maybe -- ergo now hes a strategically gifted player, despite, to my knowledge, literally never showing that as his primary strength. What a convincing argument you give... Get someone who is fluent in Korean, and get them to read or watch the contents of these sites. Use google translate if you must, anything but your horrid misinformation and judgement. + Show Spoiler + http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220832790655&categoryNo=27&parentCategoryNo=0&viewDate=¤tPage=1&postListTopCurrentPage=1&from=postView https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220848260081&proxyReferer=http://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiW--KH8cXWAhUC2LwKHVz7CykQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.naver.com%2Fstoccatore%2F220848260081&usg=AFQjCNGkz82-m0itjNLIez_SD0h34bkC7A https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220757370189&proxyReferer=http://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjAo8Hw8cXWAhVLVbwKHfuFBvEQFggvMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.naver.com%2Fstoccatore%2F220757370189&usg=AFQjCNGb9EwQJg6gn1uDxRv3Nu4Y_ok9CA http://www2.ygosu.com/community/?bid=st&idx=1038002&frombest=Y If I come off as an asshole, you're right, I have very little patience for people such as yourself. You make false arguments to support your case, you make your judgement solely off your sub-par understanding of the game, and try to make assumptions about well known quotes about EffOrt in Korean communities, based off my character traits rather than searching for the information yourself, which you are clearly incapable of doing, as you have shown with your "facts" about sAviOr. | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 27 2017 15:38 darktreb wrote: I'm happy for Larva but don't see him as a threat against Flash. What makes Flash even more OP in tournaments is he understands and is willing to tweak his play when the stakes are higher. Whereas on ladder / sponmatches he'll generally be content to sit back and duke things out. Flash has always been a guy who thinks 10 games ahead (I think iloveoov had a great quote about this when asked about what player he would have most wanted to train). And, Flash has played Larva so much. You're crazy if you don't think Flash has several builds (not cheese necessarily, but subtle tweaks) that he's saving for when he really needs to make sure he beats Larva. He's simply not gonna let games against Larva get into the sponmatch late game scenarios, just like how when Flash 3-0'd Last he also didn't let the games come down to late game slugfests / battle of pure mechanics. The fact that Flash is pretty good at coming up with ways to have a strategic win, on top of his skill level and game sense, is just unfair. Tuning your game + playing mind games for the most important BoX series is its own skill. While it's hard to quantify, it seems likely that Flash will have a huge edge over Larva at that skill due to the massive gap in tournament experience. This is a reason I think people don't want to play Jaedong in tournaments, even though Jaedong's overall form is actually not that great. Obviously Jaedong's amazing ASL2 showing, where took 2 games off of Flash via incredible preparation in game 1 and pretty much sheer force of will in game 4, is an example of how the greatest players have an extra gear, even if it's not as reliable as it used to be. Yes, spot on --- I dunno if Larva will ever become a true rival to Flash, but if he does, it won't be in their first Bo5. Flash has too much experience in tournament play, and I expect a 3-0 if they meet in ASL4. Also agreed on the fact that Jaedong is perhaps not the best Zerg at this moment by the numbers,* but still nobody wants to face him in ASL4 because they're afraid he'll unlock the crazy mode. Both Flash and Jaedong made it to all those finals, not because they're always invincible, but because they can almost always step up their game when it counts. *the numbers are lying obviously | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On September 27 2017 06:30 _Animus_ wrote: Shine was not microing his drones vs larva lings and lost them super easy from what i saw. And second game apart from that perfect scourge hit, it looked to me that effort outmicroed hero and really made him look bad, his drones and overlords were scattered at random places too. Game 3 and 4 are definitely more interesting IMO. Shine did not lose his drones vs Larva super easy given their army compositions in the battles. There's only so much you can do with 2 lings against 6. Larva made a really nice play to get himself into that position. The game was perfectly fine for a zvz. Hero was microing fine and I think his micro was not why he lost the game. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 26 2017 23:17 Ty2 wrote: I'd agree with the lack of quality in commentary for Group B. I usually listen to the Tastosis commentaries for recordings but I was up to watch the games live this time. I'm not sure if it's just because of how I pay less attention to past broadcasts, but the amount of banter felt higher and took up a considerable amount of the casting, especially in the Shine vs. Hero game. There were a few moments where the banter stuck out a lot and just felt out of place. I don't think they know ZvZ very well. Nick made such insightful comments as "they have the best builds... always look when they put drones on gas" without any analysis of why they're doing what they're doing. | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
On September 28 2017 05:56 Alpha-NP- wrote: Bisu Stork and Rain I think would give Flash the biggest challenge. Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 28 2017 12:53 Golgotha wrote: damn. effort vs flash would have been a real treat. glad larva made it through though, that guy is good for viewers. As long as Bisu or JD get a BoX against Flash, I will be so happy. I think jd and bisu vs flash will be also good for the viewers, but honestly i dont see them take more than one game vs him. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On September 28 2017 11:40 orvinreyes wrote: Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7bYxkAJAzI Stork is an all time great and arguably underrated for his raw talent (it's weird that his low APM makes people see him as less talented, when you could just as easily argue he's more talented for being able to make so much of it). That said, consistency has been more of his virtue than raising his level of play for big games. It's not just all the second place finishes - he's just not a guy that inspires the same level of fear that Bisu or Jaedong do at times. As one example, I'd argue that for much of Stork's career, any top 10 or maybe even top 15 Zerg would rightfully feel like they had a shot to win against him. Of course this is PvT which is different. Stork's understanding of PvT is sublime and he will always be able to win PvTs against second tier Terrans. He could win even if he hadn't practiced for weeks. But Stork vs Flash is different. At some point in 2010 it seems like Stork just conceded Flash's superiority and he just hasn't been the same threat. This is just my opinion I don't think Stork goes into games with Flash thinking he has much chance to win. In fact, I actually think Stork feels more optimistic against Jaedong, because Stork has had a surprising amount of success against Jaedong considering that Stork's PvZ was by far his worst matchup and Jaedong was a great ZvP player overall. Even over the past year, aside from the ASL trouncing, Stork's won a handful of important games (such as Blizzard's Remastered event where the game was basically worth $5000). | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
D1 - B2 C1 - A2 B1 - C2 A1 - D2 Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd - hero Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak - Killer Larva - Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak Flash - Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd Which means Bisu and Larva can earliest possibly meet Flash in Ro4. I guess the whole group C would be happy against Killer, Larva not so much. Same for group D, but I'd have to say I think Soulkey might not mind having to go up against Flash. Rain, I don't know. Stork and Jd, I think, would hate to meet him and will try their hardest to go against hero. | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
On September 28 2017 11:40 orvinreyes wrote: Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7bYxkAJAzI Hah! , actually Stork accomplished what he wanted with his BO. It was a 1gate zea rush, it was not supposed to end the game there. Even tho he didn't micro his first zea as well and didn't ran with his 2nd zea up the ramp when there was 1 or 2 rines on the bunker but then waited for a second zea to run both past the bunker (now full with marines) he still killed some scvs, made 2-4 scvs follow his initial zea around the main for a good amount of time. Denied vult harass and more importantly, expoed before Flash. Flash went for a barrack/cc opening and that usually gets you an expo much faster than the toss, and Stork prevented that. Also, Flash usually goes for his 3rd cc earlier/at the same time (depending on the toss' style) than his opponent. Stork also took a 3rd gas much earlier than Flash Flash knew he was behind and decided to make his cc on the spot, instead of on his main and Stork managed to force a cancel, kill some tanks and delay it even more. Flash knowing he was behind, went for a dropship harass and that achieved nothing*. Stork even had a 'noob' cannon preventing that siege drop bellow the 9h base. Tried to go to Stork's main and couldn't even lay mines. *But then Stork got lazy/arrogant and decided to take his empty main with a naked probe. Not even at C level on iccup you'll be able to take an empty main on FS without goon support. So that dropship with 1 tank and 2 mine-less vults managed to do incredible things to Stork, killed many probes, then destroyed the nexus and more importantly, prevented Stork from getting his gateways up. Stork suicide a shitload of zeas on mines to stop that dropship and Flash just picked the units up and waited for another opportunity. Stork then got desperate and tried to take 'Flash's empty main' with cannons and 1 gate, which could've worked if he was going carriers, but he wasn't. Still, stork managed to win many battles, even without stasis(f### EMP). Amidst one of those battles flash destroyed Storks last hope (11o'clock). But his storms were on point and surprisingly on the second to last battle Stork managed to decisively win that battle, but at that point it was a 3expo fully upgraded T vs 3expo P he couldn't keep up. I found it very impressive! Even tho Stork was losing units to mines quite often, but he was doing what only Jangbi (his protégé) could do to Flash: win battles mid/late game pvt without the help of lots of stasis. If he sent 4 goons to take the empty main he' would've won quite easily. But that's the genius of Flash. That dropship tried to harass 3 bases before getting to 5 o'clock. He Managed to keep it safe and that, IMHO, won him the game. PS. That game was posted on "bw dual vods" youtube channel. That's the beauty of that channel, you can see the game developing from each FPV. I found that very | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
Also, I hope he doesn't pull an Eff0rt and tries some cheese or a timing attack oe gets too greedy before facing Flash. He should play safe against other players because the maps favor him and he's better than the field. (not counting zvz) | ||
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oEkY
Germany649 Posts
On September 28 2017 17:25 PVJ wrote: So if I go by last season's draws we will have D1 - B2 C1 - A2 B1 - C2 A1 - D2 Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd - hero Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak - Killer Larva - Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak Flash - Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd Which means Bisu and Larva can earliest possibly meet Flash in Ro4. I guess the whole group C would be happy against Killer, Larva not so much. Same for group D, but I'd have to say I think Soulkey might not mind having to go up against Flash. Rain, I don't know. Stork and Jd, I think, would hate to meet him and will try their hardest to go against hero. There have always been offical bracket draws by the korean head moderator and the booth girl (dunno their names) after the last group of the round of 16 (at least in ASL S2 and ASL S3). The only things that are sure is that a player who advanced as #1 will meet a #2 player and that you cant get the same opponent as in the round of 16 again (no A#1 vs A#2 for example) | ||
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