EPT
[ASL] Grand Finals: Flash vs Shine - Page 26
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 05 2017 09:21 ldv wrote: Game 1 was not good at all. Shine's strategy was either horribly planned or VERY poorly executed. If you hide a third base, you're going to make your opponent a) suspicious and b) defensive. To then go and do a very very slow, very very late lurker drop from that third base is suicidal! You've already made your opponent think something is up! And you let him think that for a solid 60-90 seconds before you even did anything with it! I firmly believe Shine missed something in his build. Also, he kept pulling Flash's army -toward- the place he was going to drop. What happens if Flash just... leaves a marine there. GG? I think Shine's build would have worked much much better if he had cut some production to drop a 'real' fake hatchery at the bottom left, something to pull flash's army out of his base and make him think Shine was just doing some different timings or something, anything to stop Flash from sitting in his base with all the suspicion in the world. This is just one chobo's opinion, though. I'm pretty sure even I would have known my opponent was going to drop the main. Maybe some deep metagaming going on? LIke to make Flash think "that's so stupid, there's no way he'd do *that*, it must be something else..." As it is, yeah, it just looked completely hopeless. | ||
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sOuLthieF
Canada9 Posts
PvZ is a bit different, but with TvZ, terran can just turtle up and nothing a zerg does will break it. See game 1, flash made a bunker at home. gg. Game 2, turtle until push, gg. Game 3 was just straight up sick macro and multitask by Flash, I think any zerg would struggle against that, but Shine definitely overextend by breaking those double (!!) bunkers at entrance or mess up his macro right after, because flash had so much more units afterwards for those drops, but I think Shine had less lings than marines when Flash started dropping. Let's also not forget that was after his first dropship got caught by scourges. | ||
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pomwine
12 Posts
If you look at the minimap, Shine never rallied his hatches to Flash's main. While he's attacking, his units are just rallying to his own natural and sitting there. When Jaedong wins a fight in the center and gets this kind of traction attacking into a Terran's natural, he instantly rallies every hatch to the opponent's main and keeps applying pressure until he either kills them or the attack starts losing traction. I think if you gave Shine's seat to Jaedong after the fight linked above, JD probably would have killed Flash by forcing a liftoff of the Terran nat and eventually winning the game. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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czechue
Poland13 Posts
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like: A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now... | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On June 05 2017 20:35 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Disappointed by the finals, especially Shine throwing a perfectly even game #3. A crowd turnout like this deserves a much better finals. Blame Bisu for losing to Shine  | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
i dunno seems like a pretty legit trick for defending bases behind or not | ||
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 05 2017 19:02 Xeln4g4 wrote: worst one sided final ever ... The game was a masterclass of how to play TvZ. It wasn't the worst finals ever, there's been some terrible ones. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 06 2017 03:46 Qikz wrote: The game was a masterclass of how to play TvZ. It wasn't the worst finals ever, there's been some terrible ones. I think that simply people had too high expectations. Many, including me, expected closer game. But Flash simply dominated. We really need Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Fantasy or Jangbi back at their top form to have Flash break a sweat. But right now it is hard for me to see anybody who can take Flash in Bo5. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:26 sOuLthieF wrote: I think the biggest issue was that Shine didn't have the mechanics / late game to back his bag of builds. Especially tough when your opponents knows you have a bag of builds. PvZ is a bit different, but with TvZ, terran can just turtle up and nothing a zerg does will break it. See game 1, flash made a bunker at home. gg. Game 2, turtle until push, gg. Game 3 was just straight up sick macro and multitask by Flash, I think any zerg would struggle against that, but Shine definitely overextend by breaking those double (!!) bunkers at entrance or mess up his macro right after, because flash had so much more units afterwards for those drops, but I think Shine had less lings than marines when Flash started dropping. Let's also not forget that was after his first dropship got caught by scourges. Agree. Its just how the match up works early game, terran cannot be touched, unlike protoss, where zerg can make toss his pet from the early to late game. Lings are bad vs marines when they are placed good, terran can get firebats in no time, Scvs have 60 hp... even hydra busts are holded with scvs, it takes 12 shots to kill 1 scv. Shine going for base trade with lings against scvs was a laughable situation. Soulkey's methods are a different thing tho. If he refines his play he can definitely bring flash down 3-1 imo. He compose the game beautifully as time progresses leading to bigger and bigger advantage, there is alot of potential in that dude. I remember him doing the best performance of any zergs in the whole proleague season back in the day when Flash was killing every zerg super fast and easy, Soulkey impressed everyone. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 05 2017 15:54 pomwine wrote: Anyone else think Shine missed an opportunity at 1:49:30 here?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBzuhofHH10#t=1h49m30s If you look at the minimap, Shine never rallied his hatches to Flash's main. While he's attacking, his units are just rallying to his own natural and sitting there. When Jaedong wins a fight in the center and gets this kind of traction attacking into a Terran's natural, he instantly rallies every hatch to the opponent's main and keeps applying pressure until he either kills them or the attack starts losing traction. I think if you gave Shine's seat to Jaedong after the fight linked above, JD probably would have killed Flash by forcing a liftoff of the Terran nat and eventually winning the game. I want to say yes, mostly because I feel like Flash was down to single digit count of his marines, no tanks and only the 1-2 vessels out. If Shine rallied, he could've caused a lift and Flash would've retreated giving Shine the opportunity to drone at his fourth and secure it. Having said that, we know this info, Shine doesn't so he played it safe after breaking down those bunkers which is reasonable. | ||
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Arkaim
United States63 Posts
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Trillwill
18 Posts
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now... Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like: A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now... You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 06 2017 07:37 Trillwill wrote: You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game. That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays. Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 06 2017 08:18 Lebesgue wrote: That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays. Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them. Zero just went to military in May and Hydra got married and I think quit SCII. Not sure what he is doing now. | ||
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