Oh man, I'm slowly getting into BW again and it feels great! Watched a bit of last ASL and now followed a good bunch of this ASL. I FUCKING LOVE IT YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. This game is SO GOOD TO WATCH.
Also, Bisu - Shine: 3-1 except when Shine plays cheesy as fuck, then it's reversed.
This will be exciting! Shine used to be a difficult opponent for Bisu back in the day. And now, with his bag of builds he is more dangerous than ever. But Bisu is Bisu. the best PvZ'er to ever play the game! Really hyped for this one.
On the one hand I really want Shine to win and continue the legend, but on the other hand if Bisu wins Flash's entire bracket run turns into a payback tour. Choices, choices...
So hyped for this now, for the longest time I thought Shine getting here was a fluke, but he has shown some very entertaining games and Ive grown to respect him allot, I hope he continues to challenge the meta with these old/unorthodox strategies that we so rarely get to see and give Bisu a run.
I will never forget EVER OSL 2009. Not only did Shine eliminate Bisu in the early groups but then he beat Stork in the quarters. He became public enemy #1 that season.
I want a ZvT finals, but Bisu is the only one I think who has a chance of beating Flash. Flash isn't going to lose any TvZ's to Soulkey/Shine I imagine. Hoping for a good semi finals regardless and some upsets
builds which bisu should look out for: 9p speed 3 hatch ling drop into 5 hatch hydra "bust" 3 hatch mass hydra with fast drop (zero vs jangbi)
this series depends a lot on how bisu plays on andro and outsider, if he will make the same mistake as his protoss brethren it will be unlikely that he will win.
On May 27 2017 18:05 arbiter_md wrote: So much hype for this match. Only to see the winner smashed in the finals.
Hehe... well, if Shine goes up I expect that'll be the case. But I feel Bisu can bring Flash a good fight even just mentally/emotionally, as he took him out on that big stage before.
let's go! Feeling so hyped. Hoping for Bisu, realistically i think it could be a close game if you count in the various bust options and nasty zerg plays.
I'm so conflicted: on the one hand I really want to see a Flash vs Bisu individual league finals (something we were denied during the KeSPA era due to Bisu's craptasticshittiness in individual leagues that weren't the MSL and the superfluous, short-lived GOMTV league)... but on the other hand I also really want to see Shine 3-0 Bisu in a hilarious manner going all-in every game with his bottomless bag of builds (3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra...3 hatch hydra, etc.). I will pray to both the Adun and whoever it is that the Zerg worship (the Overmind?)
is the link to FlashFTW and EsportsJohn correct on the front page correct? It says twitch but leads to afreeca. I would like to try it now that Tasteless is out but Afreeca doesn't work for me. It says "click to enable adobe flash player" but clicking doesnt work :/
really smart from bisu to opt for fast reavers there against potential hydra busts realizing that he was too far from storms to get out high templar. sick corsair pathing to find that ov in the corner which basically stopped Shine's early game cold. if hes able to ferry those 8 lings and 4 hydras into the base immediately, completely different game as bisu only had 3 zealots out at that point. excited to see what else shine has in the bag of builds.
What the hell, i didn't think the hydra drop would be this close with all the info and preparations Bisu had. If he didn't have that reaver it would've been game. And all this of just 2 hatches and without Drones at the natural.
On May 27 2017 19:33 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: What the hell, i didn't think the hydra drop would be this close with all the info and preparations Bisu had. If he didn't have that reaver it would've been game. And all this of just 2 hatches and without Drones at the natural.
Do not forget that Bisu blew like 1k of minerals or something into cannons that were useless and another 500 in cannons that were useful.
On May 27 2017 19:33 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: What the hell, i didn't think the hydra drop would be this close with all the info and preparations Bisu had. If he didn't have that reaver it would've been game. And all this of just 2 hatches and without Drones at the natural.
Well, if he didn't have that reaver he would have more of other units. Basically, Shine lost the game once his initial overlord got scouted.
Shine could have also had overlord speed minutes earlier.
I preferred shine's 2 hatch bust he was doing on stream and he could have transitioned into the drop just the same. He would 9 pool speed (which despite the commentators thoughts puts you massively behind versus 12 hatch or even overlook - to the point your win rate on a 5 hatch standard play goes down massively and if you try to get up 3 hatches with gas right before the 3rd as standard you can't go spire vs scourge it will be too late you are forced to put a den down. In my mind this is a big problem with 9pool speed because it is mostly good for busts and toss can play accordingly as bisu did here) to deny scout and pool 12 hydras while upgrading speed and range all with no lair. He hits with 12 Hydra and 12 lings very fast and he won every game I saw with it. I win almost all of my games with it as well. Showing his first Hydra like he did here and the cannons instantly go up.
Which seems like that is what he wanted so bisus resources go into front cannons which puts him further behind units wise for a main battle. Problem is bisu is literally always catching that overlord. All zergs put one there. he shoulda done something bizarre and like dropped the natural from the 3 o'clock with 2 ovies.
On May 27 2017 19:58 Arvendilin wrote: Guys, lets be honest, I love Bisu, but if shine would manage to win the whole season, that would be pretty fucking sick aswell
Shine would get rolled by Flash, no bag of tricks can save him
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
On May 27 2017 19:57 Arvendilin wrote: Bisu just doesn't stand a chance against shine in a macro game, gg ez
bisu would destroy shine in a standard PvZ game actually
Good thing Brood War is a Real Time Strategy then.
Shine really knows how to put the S into an RTS that is always spammed as only a "RT" game. I love Shine's playstyle holy shit.
Yeah, the dude owned balls in this game. He aren't got great macro or micro but he played Bisu's corsair/reaver perfectly. Even got burrow to abuse Bisu's constant shuttle/reaver production.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My boy's first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
For the record i voted yes lol. It hurt but credit where its due that game was fun~ if bisu loses the series ill never watch that game again
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
AHHH BD YOURE HERE <3
promise me you're casting with us if its bisu vs flash finals.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
For the record i voted yes lol. It hurt but credit where its due that game was fun~ if bisu loses the series ill never watch that game again
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
I did, actually. That game looked pretty sloppy as Shine won the game with the first drop and then just took 5 more minutes to close it out.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
kid can hold his head up already?
His eyes were watching the screen as I held him up. I almost shed a tear. He felt the rush that is SC1.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
kid can hold his head up already?
His eyes were watching the screen as I held him up. I almost shed a tear. He felt the rush that is SC1.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
I did, actually. That game looked pretty sloppy as Shine won the game with the first drop and then just took 5 more minutes to close it out.
hmmm it wasn't so cut and dry at that point since he didn't close it out there and almost overcommited after he got defended against twice.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
kid can hold his head up already?
His eyes were watching the screen as I held him up. I almost shed a tear. He felt the rush that is SC1.
you better be watching our stream
I put on the Korean stream so he would have the experience I had back in 2005. I think all the screaming upset him at first.
On May 27 2017 19:59 FlaShFTW wrote: ok who the fuck voted if you have time...
BisuDagger?
.... that fucker. nah hes probably too exhausted from taking care of his kid right now. I'm gonna try to get him in for a special cast for the finals if its Bisu vs FlaSh cause you know, gotta revive the BisuFTW connection (god i hate that name)
My kids first StarCraft game ever was game #1. I'm being a good father.
kid can hold his head up already?
His first word is going to be something like GGEEEEGEEEEEEEE!!!
On May 27 2017 20:17 M2 wrote: bisu is playing so bad, I dont think shine is doing something special game 2 and 3, just bisu playing amazingly bad for a pro player
On May 27 2017 20:17 M2 wrote: bisu is playing so bad, I dont think shine is doing something special game 2 and 3, just bisu playing amazingly bad for a pro player
That's typically Shine's doing though.
Might be giving him excessive credit for those really obvious mistakes though.
On May 27 2017 20:17 M2 wrote: bisu is playing so bad, I dont think shine is doing something special game 2 and 3, just bisu playing amazingly bad for a pro player
That's typically Shine's doing though.
I disagree with that, game 2 shine had a bit unorthodox build, we can give him that, but in terms of game play he does what a standard zerg will do trying to get an advantage and bisu failed to counter in every single one of them, even the simplest and the easiest, biggest example being that there was absolutely no need to lose so many corsairs, he did not save a single one from scourges send on attack move towards them
On May 27 2017 20:21 FlaShFTW wrote: As bad as Bisu is playing, Shine's strategies has been pretty on point. EE HAN TIMINGGGG
You get so many ee han timings when your oppenent is playing so poorly tho :/ like the whole point of ee han timing is the fact that the timing window was razor thin whereas here shine cant lose because bisu is like, "oh here have my sairs so i have nothing to hit air" :'(
Is it just me or is Bisu playing really bad today? Whatever he does, his pvz looks so helpless, it seems like i'm watching therock or pusan against julyzerg
On May 27 2017 20:21 FlaShFTW wrote: As bad as Bisu is playing, Shine's strategies has been pretty on point. EE HAN TIMINGGGG
You get so many ee han timings when your oppenent is playing so poorly tho :/ like the whole point of ee han timing is the fact that the timing window was razor thin whereas here shine cant lose because bisu is like, "oh here have my sairs so i have nothing to hit air" :'(
this is true. but its just hype seeing the muta scourge attack on sairs and actually succeeding :D
On May 27 2017 20:25 asel wrote: Is it just me or is Bisu playing really bad today? Whatever he does, his pvz looks so helpless, it seems like i'm watching therock or pusan against julyzerg
On May 27 2017 20:25 asel wrote: Is it just me or is Bisu playing really bad today? Whatever he does, his pvz looks so helpless, it seems like i'm watching therock or pusan against julyzerg
Its even stranger than that, coz july vs pusan you could clearly see july being way ahead and better player, while here we see protoss who just doesnt have pro player mechanics and game knowledge. Bisu lost like 10 corsairs against 20 scourges without even putting a fight or trying to make it hard for shine, shine sends scourges on attack move and the maximum amount of sairs die.. I mean wtf
If this was 2010, Shine would be earning himself a huge contract pay bump next time negotiations came around. So sad that Flash will be taking all the money.
Other than a couple Corsair mistakes (which of course are quite significant) bisu isn't playing horrible. Basically I don't think this is coming down to bisu just playing badly but mainly Shine playing quite well + zerg intrinsic advantages. Bisu still a favorite if it goes to CB game 5
On May 27 2017 20:30 Arrian wrote: If this was 2010, Shine would be earning himself a huge contract pay bump next time negotiations came around. So sad that Flash will be taking all the money.
That's the bummer, whoever goes to the finals just to get crushed by Flash is so anti-climatic. Shine especially has no chance,
edit: And shine was public enemy #1 back then, things have changed.
On May 27 2017 20:31 traxamillion wrote: Other than a couple Corsair mistakes (which of course are quite significant) bisu isn't playing horrible. Basically I don't think this is coming down to bisu just playing badly but mainly Shine playing quite well + zerg intrinsic advantages. Bisu still a favorite if it goes to CB game 5
couple? he did not make a single standard (not even good) avoiding scourges play 2 games in a row? B+ protoss would have saved at least half of his sairs, since, shine did not make some amazings surrounds or ambushes, he was right clicking on the sairs and they were dying
On May 27 2017 20:30 Arrian wrote: If this was 2010, Shine would be earning himself a huge contract pay bump next time negotiations came around. So sad that Flash will be taking all the money.
That's the bummer, whoever goes to the finals just to get crushed by Flash is so anti-climatic. Shine especially has no chance,
not even with a bag of builds? cmon this was exactly the train of thought before the effort vs flash final
On May 27 2017 20:30 Arrian wrote: If this was 2010, Shine would be earning himself a huge contract pay bump next time negotiations came around. So sad that Flash will be taking all the money.
That's the bummer, whoever goes to the finals just to get crushed by Flash is so anti-climatic. Shine especially has no chance,
not even with a bag of builds? cmon this was exactly the train of thought before the effort vs flash final
Effort was a better player at his peak than Shine.
On May 27 2017 20:30 Arrian wrote: If this was 2010, Shine would be earning himself a huge contract pay bump next time negotiations came around. So sad that Flash will be taking all the money.
That's the bummer, whoever goes to the finals just to get crushed by Flash is so anti-climatic. Shine especially has no chance,
not even with a bag of builds? cmon this was exactly the train of thought before the effort vs flash final
Effort was a better player at his peak than Shine.
FlaSh was a better player at his peak than FlaSh now.
Watching Bisu practicing vs. effort I kinda saw it coming, Effort was winning probably 70%+ of the games Flash basically has a free gold from here now. Maybe we'll see something crazy though
In a sober moment, Shine has no chance against Flash. In a not so sober moment, if I was Flash, I might be worried. It's impossible to predict what this guy is gonna do.
On May 27 2017 20:39 d(O.o)a wrote: Watching Bisu practicing vs. effort I kinda saw it coming, Effort was winning probably 70%+ of the games Flash basically has a free gold from here now. Maybe we'll see something crazy though
On May 27 2017 20:39 d(O.o)a wrote: Watching Bisu practicing vs. effort I kinda saw it coming, Effort was winning probably 70%+ of the games Flash basically has a free gold from here now. Maybe we'll see something crazy though
Bag of builds only works against Flash once.
Good thing there are 3 bags of builds, each with 1 build.
On May 27 2017 20:39 Arrian wrote: This was super nutty.
In a sober moment, Shine has no chance against Flash. In a not so sober moment, if I was Flash, I might be worried. It's impossible to predict what this guy is gonna do.
Flash's entire career has basically been people throwing increasingly bizarre things at him in desperate attempts to win so I think if anyone can defeat the bag of builds it's Flash
On May 27 2017 20:39 d(O.o)a wrote: Watching Bisu practicing vs. effort I kinda saw it coming, Effort was winning probably 70%+ of the games Flash basically has a free gold from here now. Maybe we'll see something crazy though
Bag of builds only works against Flash once.
Good thing there are 3 bags of builds, each with 1 build.
Can't believe we have a fucking Shine in the finals. And it's not because he played anything, he just had to walk over noob Mong and Bisu played like shit.
Flash game sense vs Shine bag of builds, it's pretty clear where this is going. This series is more of Bisu choking, I think choking might be an understatement.
On May 27 2017 20:40 Piste wrote: God damn it's hard to be a Bisu fan.
I think Bomber's Law really should be Bisu's law.
Bomber's Law: Bomber will always disappoint. Corollary to Bomber's Law: If Bomber does not disappoint, it will be in order to set up a bigger disappointment later.
On May 27 2017 20:43 arbiter_md wrote: Can't believe we have a fucking Shine in the finals. And it's not because he played anything, he just had to walk over noob Mong and Bisu played like shit.
this post game interview is so RAW He's just laying into everyone hahaha
Shine's all like: "I've already retried, bw is like my 5th priority in life. It was hard to find practice partners so I just didn't practice. Infact, I'm so focused in other things in life I actually forgot to bring my MOUSEPAD to this match, but it's all good, my opponent was ez."
On May 27 2017 20:46 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Oh wow according to Shine he predicted Bisu was going to go 2 gate zealot heavy and prepared the lurker bust against it.
Shine's way of saying "I know Bisu sucks on Outsider."
Ok just gonna put it out there: Zergs whine when Flash or Last beat JD, or even any good Zerg. But what we saw here is the best Protoss, nay best PvZer ever (by a landslide, it's not even close), losing to a good but not really a top tier Zerg. This isn't a balance post, it's actually the opposite. This is the please stop whining post.
On May 27 2017 20:46 razorsuKe wrote: this post game interview is so RAW He's just laying into everyone hahaha
Shine's all like: "I've already retried, bw is like my 5th priority in life. It was hard to find practice partners so I just didn't practice. Infact, I'm so focused in other things in life I actually forgot to bring my MOUSEPAD to this match, but it's all good, my opponent was ez."
On May 27 2017 20:46 L1ghtning wrote: I guess Flash wins again. Sad.
He would have stomped Bisu too. Bisu was vulnerable against ssak, whereas Flash is in top form. Up until the 3-0 sweep we had on Tuesday I thought Last was the only player who could maybe beat Flash in a bo5.
On May 27 2017 20:46 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Oh wow according to Shine he predicted Bisu was going to go 2 gate zealot heavy and prepared the lurker bust against it.
If bisu micro'ed his zeals better shine would have died in the early game. Also bisu sort of read the ling lurk play (or frontal hydra attack), 2 cannons + zealots is enough to hold those builds but all his zealots were clumped and ate a ton of dmg from the lurks. Should have split them up better..
AlphaGo needs to keep learning and Jaedong needs to get back in top form so that Flash will have some actual competition next season. Right now he's just in full God mode.
Talking about the bag of strats or whatever, I actually think that Bisu's builds were countering Shine builds in every single game, maybe not in the 1st one. However, Bisu plays and overall micro were so amazingly bad that he lost the games with a margin, they were not even close xD
On May 27 2017 20:55 RowdierBob wrote: Let's put it out there: Bisu has always been overrated. He has oustanding mechanics but lacks in the more cerebral part of the game.
On May 27 2017 20:55 RowdierBob wrote: Let's put it out there: Bisu has always been overrated. He has oustanding mechanics but lacks in the more cerebral part of the game.
Come at me.
Just here to watch some fancy PvZ micro and he fucking failed at the basic level. WHERE ARE YOU BISU
So stoke! Didn't know finals were so close!!! I'm bisu fan, but I'm super happy of how Shine is playing, he is taking to a next level play, gl in the finals. Protoss, we need a different play style, but I don't see it how...
Flash vs SK will be an epic series. Finals will either be 3-0 Flash, or some random ZvZ bullshit, with Shine probably winning. Either way, it won't be any good...
On May 27 2017 20:55 RowdierBob wrote: Let's put it out there: Bisu has always been overrated. He has oustanding mechanics but lacks in the more cerebral part of the game.
Come at me.
Overrated in what sense? I dont understand, the results speak for themselves, he won 4 individual titles and another 4 (I think) team titles with two different teams, being the main force and leader of his team. Also reformed a match up (PvZ) from an impossible to fairly balanced state for Protoss. Is he flash - no? is he one of the most achieved progamers in broodwar - yes. What overrating you are talking about?
I wish i would understand why some people seems to dislike Bisu so much though. You really have no idea how hard and tough BW was (and is) at the highest level if you consider he is overrated. He ins't the most successful ever, but you do not become a household name out of the blue here (this is not SC2)...
Also, it's becoming a little boring to read constantly how it's now auto-win for FlaSh, as if SoulKey was a litteral nobody. And it's not like they faced of very recently with FlaSh losing in a long-macro game, right ? Obviously he'll be the favourite, both in the semi-final and in the final should he win, but hold on the repetitive useless statement about the deal already being done.
We've seen things happening over the past year, both in sport and politics, that were a lot more unexpected that FlaSh losing a Bo5 against one of the very best Zerg of the moment... Most of us wouldn't watch BW if it was like Tennis these days. Thankfully it's not, so learn to wait and see.
On May 27 2017 21:12 Eleonora wrote: I wish i would understand why some people seems to dislike Bisu so much though. You really have no idea how hard and tough BW was (and is) at the highest level if you consider he is overrated. He ins't the most successful ever, but you do not become a household name out of the blue here (this is not SC2)...
Also, it's becoming a little boring to read constantly how it's now auto-win for FlaSh, as if SoulKey was a litteral nobody. And it's not like they faced of very recently with FlaSh losing in a long-macro game, right ? Obviously he'll be the favourite, both in the semi-final and in the final should he win, but hold on the repetitive useless statement about the deal already being done.
We've seen things happening over the past year, both in sport and politics, that were a lot more unexpected that FlaSh losing a Bo5 against one of the very best Zerg of the moment... Most of us wouldn't watch BW if it was like Tennis these days. Thankfully it's not, so learn to wait and see.
No terran at all in Ro8, 4/4 Zerg in Ro4. Yeah indeed...
On the other hand it's good that players have a reputation, that's how we get underdogs and upsets like we had today. Makes the game more interesting than "Well anyone can win".
And every player has their haters, I think Bisu simply played a bit poorly today and some haters are using that as a scapegoat to vent their frustrations. Obviously Bisu's starleague wins speak for themselves, he has proven himself already. Perhaps also that is why he didn't play as strongly today, he had less to prove than Shine did.
Shine vs. Flash finals would draw a lot of viewership too, the underdog story.
I think the maps right now are REALLY hard PvZ I don't believe any Toss have been having good results in the matchup atm. Especially after the threat of 3hatch hydra allins rose in popularity limiting protoss playstyle even more.
so many people bashing on bisu, can you name a protoss having success in PvZ atm? I believe best has showed the results but there's not much to go off. You should all watch the stream matches while protoss are practicing PvZ and Zerg are practicing ZvP, it's VERY lopsided.
On May 27 2017 21:26 d(O.o)a wrote: Shine vs. Flash finals would draw a lot of viewership too, the underdog story.
I think the maps right now are REALLY hard PvZ I don't believe any Toss have been having good results in the matchup atm. Especially after the threat of 3hatch hydra allins rose in popularity limiting protoss playstyle even more.
so many people bashing on bisu, can you name a protoss having success in PvZ atm? I believe best has showed the results but there's not much to go off. You should all watch the stream matches while protoss are practicing PvZ and Zerg are practicing ZvP, it's VERY lopsided.
While that might be true Protoss saw the highest number of participants in the ASL this season, 13 compared to just 6 terran and 9 zerg. So the answer can't simply be to make maps more protoss favoured otherwise we would see too many P participants.
Huh seems out of place. I think I should scan OH LOOK BURROWED LINGS LOLOLOL
I mean commentators were also saying, "if flash won't come out shine will make him with the mutas" and shine promptly pulls the bio force to the bottom of his lings....
Huh seems out of place. I think I should scan OH LOOK BURROWED LINGS LOLOLOL
I mean commentators were also saying, "if flash won't come out shine will make him with the mutas" and shine promptly pulls the bio force to the bottom of his lings....
I mean it's actually pretty obvious when burrow is in effect. usually those mutas are actually going after marines or keeping them back at base, not just floating around in the middle of the map doing nothing. We saw Jaedong do the same thing on Eye of the Storm in one of their many finals encounters.
FlaSh vs EffOrt Game 2 on Eye of the Storm in Korean Air OSL comes to mind, where EffOrt had arleady done his muta harass and still had a few out on the map, used them to lure flash to stopped lurkers but pulled them upwards when his lurkers were to the south. FlaSh moves south and scans anyways. Dude just has a knack for star sense. We'll see how that comes into effect if they meet up in the finals.
Huh seems out of place. I think I should scan OH LOOK BURROWED LINGS LOLOLOL
I mean commentators were also saying, "if flash won't come out shine will make him with the mutas" and shine promptly pulls the bio force to the bottom of his lings....
I mean it's actually pretty obvious when burrow is in effect. usually those mutas are actually going after marines or keeping them back at base, not just floating around in the middle of the map doing nothing. We saw Jaedong do the same thing on Eye of the Storm in one of their many finals encounters.
FlaSh vs EffOrt Game 2 on Eye of the Storm in Korean Air OSL comes to mind, where EffOrt had arleady done his muta harass and still had a few out on the map, used them to lure flash to stopped lurkers but pulled them upwards when his lurkers were to the south. FlaSh moves south and scans anyways. Dude just has a knack for star sense. We'll see how that comes into effect if they meet up in the finals.
I'm just so excited for tomorrow game, flash vs soulkey, both playing good, so it will be a tuff and fun series to watch
Huh seems out of place. I think I should scan OH LOOK BURROWED LINGS LOLOLOL
I mean commentators were also saying, "if flash won't come out shine will make him with the mutas" and shine promptly pulls the bio force to the bottom of his lings....
I mean it's actually pretty obvious when burrow is in effect. usually those mutas are actually going after marines or keeping them back at base, not just floating around in the middle of the map doing nothing. We saw Jaedong do the same thing on Eye of the Storm in one of their many finals encounters.
FlaSh vs EffOrt Game 2 on Eye of the Storm in Korean Air OSL comes to mind, where EffOrt had arleady done his muta harass and still had a few out on the map, used them to lure flash to stopped lurkers but pulled them upwards when his lurkers were to the south. FlaSh moves south and scans anyways. Dude just has a knack for star sense. We'll see how that comes into effect if they meet up in the finals.
The Flash vs Effort game is just an example, that Flash knows his timings and not star sense. He scanned the lurkers before he moved out (look at the minimap) but Effort didn't notice so he just killed them with the next scan when he pushed out.
If anyone can prepare for surprises it's FlaSh, but I dunno man, Shine is destroying everybody throwing the "rule book" out the window. how can you prepare for somebody who's playstyle changes every game since ro24? mechanically he ain't that bad either, his micro and multitasking was spot on and everything that should've surprised him got shut down pretty easily, he prepares like an old man should lol
Feels SO GOOD MAN. If it was Bisu vs Flash finals I wouldn't even watch because I think PvT is boring as hell. Now we're getting a ZvZ or a ZvT, so hyped!
On May 27 2017 22:56 B-royal wrote: Feels SO GOOD MAN. If it was Bisu vs Flash finals I wouldn't even watch because I think PvT is boring as hell. Now we're getting a ZvZ or a ZvT, so hyped!
What the hell, a ZvZ finals is the worst nightmare.
Before replays and Vods came out, people played like Shine, which made Boxer really stand out from the rest. Since then people played like worse versions of TBLS so that alone is the reason why they are on top, Shine is really on to something here and I haven't seen this much tactical precision since Boxer. I believe him when he says he plans for every game differently, he will make you play your worst it seems, Bisu never had anything going except game 1,where Shine made an error and botched his overlord control a bit and that 2gate in the last game. The concept of having cut and dried meta for matchups is being questioned, and it's makign a lot of people uncomfortable since these strats we're seeing have been swept under the rug as being detrimental to one's long term game. Remember Shine didn't even need an early 3rd to beat Flash in the final game of team battle, something all the top zergs died trying to get to.
On May 27 2017 18:28 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: shine 3-1 bisu
Very nice prediction there, eon!
thanks,i gonna admit shine playstyle wasnt really my prediction.(i wasnt expecting 3h hydra bust either,i see everyone here saying shine the only he does is this strat but if you want every single game of him vs bisu he used this build 1 time,there are some crazy games like the one where bisu killed his third but shine killed bisu with mutas.)
On May 27 2017 21:58 c3rberUs wrote: Looking at the results. Wow. Just wow.
Why would you do that? If there was any series to watch unspoiled it would have been this one. :\ (Even I'm short on time I'd rather slideshow the VOD than check the results.)
On May 27 2017 23:16 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Before replays and Vods came out, people played like Shine, which made Boxer really stand out from the rest. Since then people played like worse versions of TBLS so that alone is the reason why they are on top, Shine is really on to something here and I haven't seen this much tactical precision since Boxer. I believe him when he says he plans for every game differently, he will make you play your worst it seems, Bisu never had anything going except game 1,where Shine made an error and botched his overlord control a bit and that 2gate in the last game. The concept of having cut and dried meta for matchups is being questioned, and it's makign a lot of people uncomfortable since these strats we're seeing have been swept under the rug as being detrimental to one's long term game. Remember Shine didn't even need an early 3rd to beat Flash in the final game of team battle, something all the top zergs died trying to get to.
Which shine vs flash game are you talking about? I only know about soulkey vs flash in the ASL team battle.
On May 27 2017 21:58 c3rberUs wrote: Looking at the results. Wow. Just wow.
Why would you do that? If there was any series to watch unspoiled it would have been this one. :\ (Even I'm short on time I'd rather slideshow the VOD than check the results.)
Er, are you complaining about spoilers in the LR? Pretty much every other post is a spoiler
On May 27 2017 21:58 c3rberUs wrote: Looking at the results. Wow. Just wow.
Why would you do that? If there was any series to watch unspoiled it would have been this one. :\ (Even I'm short on time I'd rather slideshow the VOD than check the results.)
Er, are you complaining about spoilers in the LR? Pretty much every other post is a spoiler
He is not complaining about spoilers, he wrote that he would rather watch parts of the games instead of just checking the results if he has no time.
On May 27 2017 23:16 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Before replays and Vods came out, people played like Shine, which made Boxer really stand out from the rest. Since then people played like worse versions of TBLS so that alone is the reason why they are on top, Shine is really on to something here and I haven't seen this much tactical precision since Boxer. I believe him when he says he plans for every game differently, he will make you play your worst it seems, Bisu never had anything going except game 1,where Shine made an error and botched his overlord control a bit and that 2gate in the last game. The concept of having cut and dried meta for matchups is being questioned, and it's makign a lot of people uncomfortable since these strats we're seeing have been swept under the rug as being detrimental to one's long term game. Remember Shine didn't even need an early 3rd to beat Flash in the final game of team battle, something all the top zergs died trying to get to.
Which shine vs flash game are you talking about? I only know about soulkey vs flash in the ASL team battle.
On May 27 2017 23:16 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Remember Shine didn't even need an early 3rd to beat Flash in the final game of team battle, something all the top zergs died trying to get to.
That was Soulkey, and he did take and barely hold his 3rd that game, and he played standard macro long game overall.
What I'm really interested in, is to see how Flash deals with the hydra guardian build which Mong failed against twice (completely aware of what's coming the 2nd time), and any possible adjustments from Shine.
On May 27 2017 23:16 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Before replays and Vods came out, people played like Shine, which made Boxer really stand out from the rest. Since then people played like worse versions of TBLS so that alone is the reason why they are on top, Shine is really on to something here and I haven't seen this much tactical precision since Boxer. I believe him when he says he plans for every game differently, he will make you play your worst it seems, Bisu never had anything going except game 1,where Shine made an error and botched his overlord control a bit and that 2gate in the last game. The concept of having cut and dried meta for matchups is being questioned, and it's makign a lot of people uncomfortable since these strats we're seeing have been swept under the rug as being detrimental to one's long term game. Remember Shine didn't even need an early 3rd to beat Flash in the final game of team battle, something all the top zergs died trying to get to.
the map plays a big role as well. both outsider and andromeda arent your standard maps and that suits shine massively
Game 1: Shine picked a relatively risky strategy. Bisu's play was really clean. Shine's only possible chance of winning was positioning that overlord that Bisu scouted first with his 1st corsair somewhere closer to the hydras - just in case. Yes, Shine didn't split hydras too well later, but still, at that point it was over.
Game 2: Bisu loses his first two corsairs - this was pretty big already. Terrible on Bisu's behalf scouting a finished spire and chasing close to impossible overlord kills. Later on Bisu pulling probes with reavers vs the 1st hydra drop was really nice but reaver scarabs bugging was not. Shine actually making a huge mistake afterwards to not snipe that main nexus of Bisu and Bisu proceeding with nice defence. At the 57:25 mark of the YouTube cast it looked like Bisu is still way behind having but still looking better than at 53:20 which was a pretty nice executed survival on his part. Later on I think Bisu picked wrongfully the left side of the map to go with his sair/2shuttle reaver army, he lost time to kill a drone and a ling and i really think going to the right side to drop on Shine's natural quickly might have been better. Still Shine had huge advantage and I don't think Bisu would have closed the gap wherever he went as Shine was already taking bases everywhere.
Game 3: Bisu loses his first two corsairs - pretty huge already. Again, really terrible on Bisu's behalf. This time the 2nd corsair that he lost was due to his bad starport positioning which wasn't protected by the cannon. Shine exploits this to the max and pretty much kills him with the mutas. Later on Bisu having questionable small battles. At this point if I was Bisu I would wonder - how do I put myself in such a terrible spot vs this guy two games in a row?
Actually I would be interested on some progamer protosses sharing why they refuse to go forge-expansion on this map.
Bisu looked like taking a nice lead with the zealot pressure. Turning attention to the last battle there, at first I thought Bisu did a terrible job fighting with the 5 zealots on the bridge as he overextended and received so much damage there. When I rewatched I think what happened there was Bisu really committing for the 1st lurker kill which turned out pretty bad for him. Can I blame him for that split-second decision and that he didn't bring probes earlier? I think I can't - switching his mindset from "I better play really clean" to "zealot/cannon micro vs ling lurker on ramp" feels really hard to do.
I would have expected much more from a more relaxed Bisu but still credits go to Shine for his really clean play here.
On May 27 2017 21:58 c3rberUs wrote: Looking at the results. Wow. Just wow.
Why would you do that? If there was any series to watch unspoiled it would have been this one. :\ (Even I'm short on time I'd rather slideshow the VOD than check the results.)
I wanted to know the result so badly and I did watch major parts of game 2. But don't get me wrong though, you're absolutely right. ^_^
Wow, this series took me through a turn. I like them both so I wasn't hardcore about either one of them winning, but Bisu losing his corsairs to nothing several games just hurt. edit: oh he literally said he had a cold and was out walking late at night and got sick / didn't sleep. That makes a lot of sense. Man Bisu is a sensitive boy, Shine really has his number.
Bisu barely even survived game 1, just because shine didn't micro his hydra at all vs the reaver. The other games, you know shine brought good strategy and played well and made good overall decisions, Bisu lost the games more than Shine won them. You just can't lose one corsair after another like that.
Hard series to watch, a lot less fun than Shine vs Mong. More like wtf is wrong with you Bisu this time. Other than losing corsairs he didn't do much wrong, but like... at no point did I feel Shine was in trouble. He won the coinflip scout on Outsider, bad luck, but the other games there wasn't much excuse. I know lots of other Protoss lose their corsairs like scrubs, but you don't really expect that from Bisu, and it's not like Shine was super awesome with his scourge, he was just doing basic stay-away-from-my-overlords scourge.
Nice drops anyway for Shine. No defence against it if you can't keep your corsair count. Besides cut everything and build nothing but cannons I guess.
I felt like this series pretty much summed up how boring 1v1 PvZ is. It's like Protoss can't both defend against Hydra bust and fast drops.
You just need to watch some of the great PvZs of progaming. There's nothing boring about this matchup, you just can't rush to a unit and donate it for nothing. Any matchup including mirrors are susceptible to that.
On May 28 2017 01:13 endy wrote: fuck Shine Flash is going to 3-0 him in 40 minutes in finals.
Whaaaaat Endy what's wrong with Shine??? Oh I forgot, you are like the #1 Bisu fan :D Hope you're doing alright there though~ I loved these games... Love some non-standard play~
Oh man Shine played the series great. That Andromeda game was sick as well. I really want Shine to win this tournament, but I have no idea how he'll beat Flash. I would like Soulkey to beat Flash, but Flash's TvZ is insanely good so I don't have my hopes up.
You know what, literally every time shine has come up to bat in this tournament I said "Okay this is as far as he gets, he should lose now." I said that in RO24, RO16, RO8, RO4, and here he is... In the finals, and still every part of me is thinking he's gonna take home the silver medal, part of me really hopes he proves me wrong and royal roads this. Predicting a clean Flash victory over SK and Shine however.
On May 27 2017 20:55 RowdierBob wrote: Let's put it out there: Bisu has always been overrated. He has oustanding mechanics but lacks in the more cerebral part of the game.
Come at me.
I dunno, 3 major titles and a 65% career WR combined with being the only protoss ever over 60% vZ...I think it's hard to overrate that.
If people were trying to claim Bisu as best all time SC player, or put him on same tier as FlaSh I'd be right there with you, but there is no argument against Bisu being the best protoss of all time.
On May 27 2017 21:21 BisuDagger wrote: Just remembered if Flash loses he would be playing Bisu in a bo5. Now I'm cheering for Soulkey even harder lol.
Why would I want to see another utterly one sides 3-0 from Flash?
Bisu vs Flash would be great if both were at their peak.
Bisu obviously is not.
Bisu has been on a tear until Shine to be honest. His stats in sponmatches and other such have been absolutely off the charts. I don't know is Shine was just in his head, but Bisu sure seemed to choke hard here. Overall he seems to be in the form of his (post KeSPA) life
On May 27 2017 22:56 B-royal wrote: Feels SO GOOD MAN. If it was Bisu vs Flash finals I wouldn't even watch because I think PvT is boring as hell. Now we're getting a ZvZ or a ZvT, so hyped!
What the hell, a ZvZ finals is the worst nightmare.
Huh?
ZvZ is a fine match up. It might not be TvZ, but it's some of the most tense, tactical stuff out there.
On May 28 2017 02:06 WhiteKnight.US wrote: I felt like this series pretty much summed up how boring 1v1 PvZ is. It's like Protoss can't both defend against Hydra bust and fast drops.
It's impossible to do....when you show control that looks not too different from a C ranked ICCup player with your corsairs.
Wow what a series. Not really surprised at the result as Shine has always had Bisu's number in individual leagues, but it was disappointing how Bisu played. Nevertheless, Shine keeps coming prepared and keeps earning his wins. You can tell he really wants this title. Rooting for him to take it all.
Really interesting how Shine played, he played fantastic! Years of observing Bisu literally he just have gotten thinking of strategies and timings to defeat him.
Truly great Starcraft here.
Most likely he will face Flash in the finals, wondering what "bag of builds" he will have against God.
While I want to believe in Shine, guessing a 3-0 Flash victory.
Meh. Compared to what I know Bisu's capable of, he didn't play very well. Lots of bad little decisions or micro mistakes. But Shine played with great motivation. Good strategies and powerful execution.
I feel like Shine made very good build choices and executed them as best he could. However as others have echoed, Bisu was extremely uncharacteristically sloppy. His probe/zealot/corsair micro were all subpar to his usual self and his multitasking felt non existent (only one battle going on, loses bunch of sairs elsewhere to unmicroed units, compared to his usual ability to micro 3-4 different engagements at the same time).
I think overall Shine deserved this win for showing some really inspired thinking, Bisu was relying on mechanics he didn't seem to have due to him being ill or whatever. (Compare to his sick dragoon micro vs Ssak).
Anyway my prediction, if SK can upset Flash then Shine can win the tournament, if SK gets destroyed by Flash then I assume Flash > Shine. You can't out think God
Good that I watched without spoiling the results. Oh my, Shine, you actually did that, again, hahaha. I really feel for Bisu fans but there is always a player who you can't just play against straight right? Bisu could easily dismember Effort or JD as he did many times but with Shine, it is always a story to tell.
Lyrics aside, Shine did prepare for these games and oh he did well. Uncharacteristic sloppy mistakes by Bisu were probably the nerves (one of the reasons why Bisu can only play well when he is allowed to). Nobody doubts that Bisu mechanically is just way better than any other BW player but it is not enough, you actually need a character to win.
People need to stop balance whining. Was Bisu the favorite? Yes. But he played like shit and deserved to lose. Its not the matchup, so stop. Bisu is the greatest PvZ player of all time, you cant make excuses about a lesser skilled Zerg beating him because the matchup is "unfair".
Not only is the whining useless and unwarranted, its also a huge disrespect to Shine. His play this series was fantastic, his build ideas were amazing, and he showed why you need STRATEGY in BW to actually win games. You cant just be an APM god to win.
Enough. Let the players play and actually watch how they play before saying if a matchup sucks or not. No one says that Terran is underpowered when Flash loses, they always say he played bad. Great! Now translate that to Bisu, BeSt, Mong, any other player who was unable to advance. /rant
On May 28 2017 05:27 letian wrote: Don't feed the balance trolls. I think these are just poor attempts at flooding. BW balance talks look boring even to read.
I'm feeding them hard, because it's just a bad mindset...and it's suddenly become WAY worse over the last 12 months or so. At first I thought it was just SC2 people, used to a game that is constantly patched and has a little more of a culture of discussion/complaining about balance, but when I looked closer a large portion of the balance stuff is coming from pretty established BW players that really should understand better
oh no, Shine screwed up so hard in G1, why push all your units towards the protoss main while corsair have vision? That like "bisu im gonna drop you, you better build some defences" He shouldve just send the corsair away with hydras then drop...
Bisu played D- second game, quallity of play really droped out after the end of progame era. Runing corsairs over hydras, no bother to pull out corsairs that are targeted by hydras, wasting units everywhere. I mean come on i do better with corsairs than this :D Bisu looks crushed after game 2 i guess this series is done.
Game 3. Did Bisu just go afk at random moments?
Game 4. Bisu couldve gotten significant advantage if not won the game, if just pulled back 2 of his zealots to the side, after the rush finished, since he have enough to hold his ramp. How can he be so uncreative with such a common stuff. If he run pass the sunken, after lings go to his main with the 2 zealots, drones are out of the main.
Seems like Bisu was not here today, its like Shine has some dark power that negates Bisu multitasking skill.
And have really to say Shine outshines everybody in this tournament so far, brilliant performance and execution overall.
Just finished watching the series and I have to say I was disappointed by Bisu's play. It was uncharacteristically sloppy, nowhere near the quality of PvZ that he typically plays. His multi-tasking really failed him several times.
But it also seem that he was really caught under-prepared. Shine was dictating the flow of the series.
GG Shine. Now let's hope that Flash advances so we don't have ZvZ finals...
Huh seems out of place. I think I should scan OH LOOK BURROWED LINGS LOLOLOL
To be honest, Flash had a 2nd scv scouting Shine's base as long as he wanted. That was already bad for Shine. he let that scv get past his lings without noticing. Then shine showed 12 lings to flash by trying to poke in its natural. Flash got out of his base, sees one ling, thats ok then walks the mms very tight to get ready to battle the 12 lings + muta micro (kinda common) and he keeps controlling his rines in formation and still no sign of the other 11 lings.
Considering a. he isn't playing a noob that kept his lings at home and b. He knows his opponent, it isn't that amazing...
Anyways, that series had nothing to do with Bisu not being strategically ready for Shine's builds. Quite the contrary. It had everything to do with him reading well and then miss-microing. He got outmicro'd badly.
Bisu choked like a chump in this series. At least he was honest before the game he was too nervous. Losing the first two corsairs to the first 4 scourges two games in a row was awful. Since this current PvZ meta was established I've seen hundreds of games of Bisu and very rarely he loses his first corsair to 2 scourges and I sincerely think I've never seen in normal circumstances him losing the first 2 corsairs to 4 scourges, let alone twice in a row.
I was a B level player in my prime and I came back to bw 40 days ago and I only play 2-5 games per day and not everyday. Still, after 2 weeks I stopped losing my first corsair to scourges in normal circumstances, obviously. That's bad for a C player like myself, and I can't even put into words how bad it is for the "Corsair Master". Bisu usually keeps most of his initial 6 sairs alive throughout the games.
Even in the first game he didn't reacted well. He scouted with 2 probes and proceeded safely, adding 2 canns before nexus,. He also kept probes blocking the gaps, etc, then he notices something strange by the # of hydras attacking at his choke were not increasing as expected and finds the ovies ready to drop hydra/ling in his main and he defends it well, then he sends a corsair to scout Z's base, sees only 1 expo and more importantly: 2 drones at Shine's natural. That's GG.But Bisu was greed by not adding more cannons and the two cannons he put that were the only ones in place to defend against a hydra drop weren't placed well. So he lost his small ground army to hydras and depended on shine not microing well against a shuttle-less reaver. Not sure whats the point of trying to be too greed against an inferior tricky player.
The last game was also lost due to bad micro. That last game was the PvZ meta for a long time. Opening 2gate to punish Z's FE then having to hold the ramp against hydra or lurker/ling was very common. And he had 2 cannons at the correct distances of the ramp + at opposed positions so lurkers couldn't hit both at the same time. He was safe. He should've never engaged the lurkers in the middle of the ramp. Thats the basics for any P. Shine didn't even had a over to get vision on the higher ground. FFS! Back in the day we had to micro a goon to kill the ovie, he had no vision. Shine had to keep suiciding lings to get full vision or wait for the cannons to hit the lurkers to get vision momentarily.
Bisu microed like a chump in this series. I want to see the FPVods but it seems to me his multitasking ended up hurting him when he only needed to pay attention and micro well his units to beat a trickster.
I'm sorry for the double post but look at this. It's even worse.
I thought the first lurker was in the middle of the ramp but it was in the bottom. LOL. Shine didn't micro well enough. If you have no over, usually you burrow the first one then get the next two up with lings to get vision. His lurkers weren't in range of hitting anything, lol. Bisu only needed to back away the 5 zeas in formation and it was over for shine...
Shine prolly was betting Bisu was too greedy and thus would have no cannons, or he was going for a drop again and changed plans when Bisu killed his 2 nearest overlords. Now I want to see the fpvod.
On May 28 2017 07:42 mcmascote wrote: I'm sorry for the double post but look at this. It's even worse.
I thought the first lurker was in the middle of the ramp but it was in the bottom. LOL. Shine didn't micro well enough. If you have no over, usually you burrow the first one then get the next two up with lings to get vision. His lurkers weren't in range of hitting anything, lol. Bisu only needed to back away the 5 zeas in formation and it was over for shine...
Shine prolly was betting Bisu was too greedy and thus would have no cannons, or he was going for a drop again and changed plans when Bisu killed his 2 nearest overlords. Now I want to see the fpvod.
Lurkers are definitely in range of the upper cannon and will hit zealots defending. However Bisu took some really hard hits on ALL of his zealots while blocking his ramp. It would have been much better to back off and pull some probes to help the cannons.
On May 28 2017 07:42 mcmascote wrote: I'm sorry for the double post but look at this. It's even worse.
I thought the first lurker was in the middle of the ramp but it was in the bottom. LOL. Shine didn't micro well enough. If you have no over, usually you burrow the first one then get the next two up with lings to get vision. His lurkers weren't in range of hitting anything, lol. Bisu only needed to back away the 5 zeas in formation and it was over for shine...
Shine prolly was betting Bisu was too greedy and thus would have no cannons, or he was going for a drop again and changed plans when Bisu killed his 2 nearest overlords. Now I want to see the fpvod.
Lurkers are definitely in range of the upper cannon and will hit zealots defending. However Bisu took some really hard hits on ALL of his zealots while blocking his ramp. It would have been much better to back off and pull some probes to help the cannons.
Guys, it was all over, pulling probes vs lurkers was just going to make things worse.
On May 28 2017 07:42 mcmascote wrote: I'm sorry for the double post but look at this. It's even worse.
I thought the first lurker was in the middle of the ramp but it was in the bottom. LOL. Shine didn't micro well enough. If you have no over, usually you burrow the first one then get the next two up with lings to get vision. His lurkers weren't in range of hitting anything, lol. Bisu only needed to back away the 5 zeas in formation and it was over for shine...
Shine prolly was betting Bisu was too greedy and thus would have no cannons, or he was going for a drop again and changed plans when Bisu killed his 2 nearest overlords. Now I want to see the fpvod.
Lurkers are definitely in range of the upper cannon and will hit zealots defending. However Bisu took some really hard hits on ALL of his zealots while blocking his ramp. It would have been much better to back off and pull some probes to help the cannons.
But he doesn't have detection, that'd give a way his first cannon for free, let Shine take a good new position for taking out the other cannon. Though that'd probably be the best time to push then. His wall will break no matter what here with three lurkers in range so the way he played isn't the way to go. I just don't think it's sure that Bisu would've held it. Maybe if he threw up another cannon at his nexus, bought time by pushing whenever the Lurkers unburrowed. But I think this timing was very strong vs 2gate on close positions.
On May 28 2017 06:37 _Animus_ wrote: oh no, Shine screwed up so hard in G1, why push all your units towards the protoss main while corsair have vision? That like "bisu im gonna drop you, you better build some defences" He shouldve just send the corsair away with hydras then drop...
Bisu played D- second game, quallity of play really droped out after the end of progame era. Runing corsairs over hydras, no bother to pull out corsairs that are targeted by hydras, wasting units everywhere. I mean come on i do better with corsairs than this :D Bisu looks crushed after game 2 i guess this series is done.
Game 3. Did Bisu just go afk at random moments?
Game 4. Bisu couldve gotten significant advantage if not won the game, if just pulled back 2 of his zealots to the side, after the rush finished, since he have enough to hold his ramp. How can he be so uncreative with such a common stuff. If he run pass the sunken, after lings go to his main with the 2 zealots, drones are out of the main.
Seems like Bisu was not here today, its like Shine has some dark power that negates Bisu multitasking skill.
And have really to say Shine outshines everybody in this tournament so far, brilliant performance and execution overall.
Regarding Bisu afk moment, did anyone see him fall asleep during shine's pregame interview. He looked out of it. My wife believes he was hung over lol. Obviously being sick or hung over aren't valid excuses, but he certainly looked off from start to finish. Shine sure has done a number on him.
On May 28 2017 09:27 BisuDagger wrote: Regarding Bisu afk moment, did anyone see him fall asleep during shine's pregame interview. He looked out of it. My wife believes he was hung over lol. Obviously being sick or hung over aren't valid excuses, but he certainly looked off from start to finish. Shine sure has done a number on him.
people who root against Shine in the final because they're Bisu fans are dumb you better root for the one who beat your boy in the final so he can go down as losing to the eventual champion, not losing to another loser
I remember shine saying that in this format where you play more than 1 game he will surprise everyone, so far he ain't lying. Every single game has been different so far and it's amazing to watch, imagine how carefully he crafted these because all his "surprise transitions have been timed beautifully. He's lost to FlaSh and Effort in a Bo1 earlier, so there's that.
Bisu's PvZ is always a pleasure to watch because of his sublime mechanics and multitasking but despite his uncharacteristically bad corsair control in these games, the series was hugely entertaining because Shine is the Santa Claus of Zerg with his bottomless bag of builds--a gift of guardians for Mong and yet another lump of coal for Bisu.
I also agree that the balance whining has no place here. Only thing imba in BW is Flash. If Shine is the Santa Claus of BW, then Flash is going to show him the true meaning of Christmas next Sunday.
On May 28 2017 10:43 Terrorbladder wrote: people who root against Shine in the final because they're Bisu fans are dumb you better root for the one who beat your boy in the final so he can go down as losing to the eventual champion, not losing to another loser
The more salty they are, the more delicious their tears become.
2009/2010 marketing has been so effective within the BW scene. Bisu has been fluking wins here and there since 2010 and people think he can keep up with everyone else, while his PvT was always poor and his PvZ wins revolved around getting lucky with DTs.
Plus, Shine was having a hell of a climb in 2010, arguably the year when BW pro skill was at it's highest. At the time the undisputed top Zerg was EffOrt, with soulkey coming into his own and showing heaps of potential, and Shine being on his tail. JD was completely out of the picture, the games he was winning was purely on intimidation. OZ was pushing Killer at the time to replace him, and Type-b had a lot of potential (and a lot in common with Shine), but he had his career cut short by outside pressure into match-fixing, so who even knows how many of his latest losses were legitimate.
On May 28 2017 13:54 r33k wrote: 2009/2010 marketing has been so effective within the BW scene. Bisu has been fluking wins here and there since 2010 and people think he can keep up with everyone else, while his PvT was always poor and his PvZ wins revolved around getting lucky with DTs.
Plus, Shine was having a hell of a climb in 2010, arguably the year when BW pro skill was at it's highest. At the time the undisputed top Zerg was EffOrt, with soulkey coming into his own and showing heaps of potential, and Shine being on his tail. JD was completely out of the picture, the games he was winning was purely on intimidation. OZ was pushing Killer at the time to replace him, and Type-b had a lot of potential (and a lot in common with Shine), but he had his career cut short by outside pressure into match-fixing, so who even knows how many of his latest losses were legitimate.
He looked really good after he defeated Savior and i enjoy watching Bisu play but this series was depressing it was like he uh trying to lose basically tbh
also request the Jaedong Bisu chat about the average protoss can beat Shine pic
On May 28 2017 13:54 r33k wrote: 2009/2010 marketing has been so effective within the BW scene. Bisu has been fluking wins here and there since 2010 and people think he can keep up with everyone else, while his PvT was always poor and his PvZ wins revolved around getting lucky with DTs.
Plus, Shine was having a hell of a climb in 2010, arguably the year when BW pro skill was at it's highest. At the time the undisputed top Zerg was EffOrt, with soulkey coming into his own and showing heaps of potential, and Shine being on his tail. JD was completely out of the picture, the games he was winning was purely on intimidation. OZ was pushing Killer at the time to replace him, and Type-b had a lot of potential (and a lot in common with Shine), but he had his career cut short by outside pressure into match-fixing, so who even knows how many of his latest losses were legitimate.
EffOrt 2010
Proleague 36W 27L 57.1% Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1
Jaedong 2010
Proleague 52W 21L 71.2% Winner: 2010 WCG Korea Finals Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 Runner-Up: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League Runner-Up: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League Winner: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League
All I can say is Shine has been really entertaining to watch and has injected some great "new" blood into this tournament. It's exactly what this scene needs.
On May 28 2017 13:54 r33k wrote: 2009/2010 marketing has been so effective within the BW scene. Bisu has been fluking wins here and there since 2010 and people think he can keep up with everyone else, while his PvT was always poor and his PvZ wins revolved around getting lucky with DTs.
Plus, Shine was having a hell of a climb in 2010, arguably the year when BW pro skill was at it's highest. At the time the undisputed top Zerg was EffOrt, with soulkey coming into his own and showing heaps of potential, and Shine being on his tail. JD was completely out of the picture, the games he was winning was purely on intimidation. OZ was pushing Killer at the time to replace him, and Type-b had a lot of potential (and a lot in common with Shine), but he had his career cut short by outside pressure into match-fixing, so who even knows how many of his latest losses were legitimate.
Wow, I must have been watching an alternative broodwar scene! Where Jeadong was still owning everyone in 2010, and Zero was no.2 Zerg, with Hydra on the raise. In my universe Shina was only known for strong ZvP and in particular for knocking out Bisu. And in broodwar scene that I followed, Bisu was undeniably considered the best PvZ'er, was rarely using DTs in 2009-2010, and instead he pushing meta with early zealot pushes.
On May 28 2017 06:37 _Animus_ wrote: oh no, Shine screwed up so hard in G1, why push all your units towards the protoss main while corsair have vision? That like "bisu im gonna drop you, you better build some defences" He shouldve just send the corsair away with hydras then drop...
Bisu played D- second game, quallity of play really droped out after the end of progame era. Runing corsairs over hydras, no bother to pull out corsairs that are targeted by hydras, wasting units everywhere. I mean come on i do better with corsairs than this :D Bisu looks crushed after game 2 i guess this series is done.
Game 3. Did Bisu just go afk at random moments?
Game 4. Bisu couldve gotten significant advantage if not won the game, if just pulled back 2 of his zealots to the side, after the rush finished, since he have enough to hold his ramp. How can he be so uncreative with such a common stuff. If he run pass the sunken, after lings go to his main with the 2 zealots, drones are out of the main.
Seems like Bisu was not here today, its like Shine has some dark power that negates Bisu multitasking skill.
And have really to say Shine outshines everybody in this tournament so far, brilliant performance and execution overall.
Regarding Bisu afk moment, did anyone see him fall asleep during shine's pregame interview. He looked out of it. My wife believes he was hung over lol. Obviously being sick or hung over aren't valid excuses, but he certainly looked off from start to finish. Shine sure has done a number on him.
I believe someone else has already posted this. Bisu was apparently 'sick' on the day of the game. Doesn't excuse his poor performance, but I'm sure it would've affected his play to some degree.
Want to know what the most interesting thing is? Shine isn't even in the building in the opening ASL3 intro video. FlaSh is there at the end facing all the players who fans think have a shot at beating him. Nowhere is Shine to be seen, though. I think the one thing Shine has going for him this tournament is that he is the dark horse. No one expects him to win. No one expects him to go far. No one knows what he's got in his bag o' builds. No one knows where all the confidence he's got comes from. I'd wager Shine is the opponent FlaSh is least prepared for considering how little they've played online if at all. I hope when he defeats FlaSh they have a special ending where Shine tears off the roof of the building and devours everyone.
But really, though, If he does manage to win the ASL, then I would say he's the modern-day sAviOr, and I mean that in the most positive sense. This guy has brought nothing but ingenious, refreshing, and entertaining StarCraft to the fans. The fact that he's a massive underdog (a dad with two kids and having difficulty finding practice partners) against the current top players just makes me root for him even more.
While I feel like Shine got in Bisu's head at some point in the match, I do feel like Bisu was off his game. As people said earlier, he looked like crap during the interview at the beginning with Stargirl, and it felt like an iCCup player was controlling his corsairs in games 2 and 3. It didn't seem like he had a cold or flu to me. He didn't even blow his nose once or have a tissue box or have one of those white face masks. To me it just looked like he got no sleep.
On a more sour note, I really didn't like Rapid's casting. He gave shout-outs to the panda bear on Andromeda three times, he had too much high-pitched laughing, he talked about pursuit curves and calculus which have zero relevance in a match (not the first time he's done this), he delivered Tasteless's closing line with more cheese than a cheese pizza (speaking of which, I wish they'd quit saying, "we love you!"--always makes me cringe), he clashed with Artosis in humor (rather than going along with that brilliant observer joke and laughing, he tried to shut it down and one-up him). I think Artosis did a great job, though. I wish someone from the community, like TechnicS or Bakuryu, could get up there with him when Tasteless isn't around.
On May 28 2017 06:37 _Animus_ wrote: oh no, Shine screwed up so hard in G1, why push all your units towards the protoss main while corsair have vision? That like "bisu im gonna drop you, you better build some defences" He shouldve just send the corsair away with hydras then drop...
Bisu played D- second game, quallity of play really droped out after the end of progame era. Runing corsairs over hydras, no bother to pull out corsairs that are targeted by hydras, wasting units everywhere. I mean come on i do better with corsairs than this :D Bisu looks crushed after game 2 i guess this series is done.
Game 3. Did Bisu just go afk at random moments?
Game 4. Bisu couldve gotten significant advantage if not won the game, if just pulled back 2 of his zealots to the side, after the rush finished, since he have enough to hold his ramp. How can he be so uncreative with such a common stuff. If he run pass the sunken, after lings go to his main with the 2 zealots, drones are out of the main.
Seems like Bisu was not here today, its like Shine has some dark power that negates Bisu multitasking skill.
And have really to say Shine outshines everybody in this tournament so far, brilliant performance and execution overall.
Regarding Bisu afk moment, did anyone see him fall asleep during shine's pregame interview. He looked out of it. My wife believes he was hung over lol. Obviously being sick or hung over aren't valid excuses, but he certainly looked off from start to finish. Shine sure has done a number on him.
I believe someone else has already posted this. Bisu was apparently 'sick' on the day of the game. Doesn't excuse his poor performance, but I'm sure it would've affected his play to some degree.
Yes, he said he went to outdoor for relax&fresh air at midnight, after long time pvz exercise. Unfortunately he caught a bit cold (roughly translated according to his interview before match).
Let's also not forget it was one series, 4 games in total. No matter how skilled a player is, on the balance of probabilities they can't win 100% of their games, and 4 games is simply not a large enough sample size to conclusively say one player is better than another. Throw in the fact that Bisu was sick and it is pretty fair to say he was simply shit out of luck. Even Flash doesn't have a perfect winrate, so why do we expect as much from Bisu?
Treat this as what it is, a single datapoint against Bisu and in favour of Shine. If there are more datapoints then we can make some conclusion. Until then we can simply say it was an unlucky loss for Bisu in conjunction with a strong performance by Shine. No need to read more into what was only a single series between these two players.
On May 28 2017 16:07 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Hello, Teamliquid.
Want to know what the most interesting thing is? Shine isn't even in the building in the opening ASL3 intro video. FlaSh is there at the end facing all the players who fans think have a shot at beating him. Nowhere is Shine to be seen, though. I think the one thing Shine has going for him this tournament is that he is the dark horse. No one expects him to win. No one expects him to go far. No one knows what he's got in his bag o' builds. No one knows where all the confidence he's got comes from. I'd wager Shine is the opponent FlaSh is least prepared for considering how little they've played online if at all. I hope when he defeats FlaSh they have a special ending where Shine tears off the roof of the building and devours everyone.
But really, though, If he does manage to win the ASL, then I would say he's the modern-day sAviOr, and I mean that in the most positive sense. This guy has brought nothing but ingenious, refreshing, and entertaining StarCraft to the fans. The fact that he's a massive underdog (a dad with two kids and having difficulty finding practice partners) against the current top players just makes me root for him even more.
While I feel like Shine got in Bisu's head at some point in the match, I do feel like Bisu was off his game. As people said earlier, he looked like crap during the interview at the beginning with Stargirl, and it felt like an iCCup player was controlling his corsairs in games 2 and 3. It didn't seem like he had a cold or flu to me. He didn't even blow his nose once or have a tissue box or have one of those white face masks. To me it just looked like he got no sleep.
On a more sour note, I really didn't like Rapid's casting. He gave shout-outs to the panda bear on Andromeda three times, he had too much high-pitched laughing, he talked about pursuit curves and calculus which have zero relevance in a match (not the first time he's done this), he delivered Tasteless's closing line with more cheese than a cheese pizza (speaking of which, I wish they'd quit saying, "we love you!"--always makes me cringe), he clashed with Artosis in humor (rather than going along with that brilliant observer joke and laughing, he tried to shut it down and one-up him). I think Artosis did a great job, though. I wish someone from the community, like TechnicS or Bakuryu, could get up there with him when Tasteless isn't around.
Just my random thoughts.
Sincerely, Shalashaska_123
No i didnt enjoy Rapid either, wasnt sure what he meant by temples in Outsider that kinda confused me but Artosis never said anything about it so i dunno.
I do hope Shine wins in a way even though I play Terran, but i think thats cause i love a good under-dog story
On May 28 2017 16:44 XenoX101 wrote: Let's also not forget it was one series, 4 games in total. No matter how skilled a player is, on the balance of probabilities they can't win 100% of their games, and 4 games is simply not a large enough sample size to conclusively say one player is better than another. Throw in the fact that Bisu was sick and it is pretty fair to say he was simply shit out of luck. Even Flash doesn't have a perfect winrate, so why do we expect as much from Bisu?
Treat this as what it is, a single datapoint against Bisu and in favour of Shine. If there are more datapoints then we can make some conclusion. Until then we can simply say it was an unlucky loss for Bisu in conjunction with a strong performance by Shine. No need to read more into what was only a single series between these two players.
I think this is the 3rd series Shine has destroyed Bisu in though 3-0/2-0? in the other two i think
Fair point, though that would have been a long time ago no? So it probably means less to the current meta and pro scene. Also because of Shine's absence, though he has had some games now he is still somewhat of an unknown. He has surprised people thus far, so it could in fact be that he is better than people expect? I think people just assume that because he has other obligations he can't compete, but in fact he would have more wisdom than many players due to his tenure with Brood War.
Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
On May 28 2017 06:37 _Animus_ wrote: oh no, Shine screwed up so hard in G1, why push all your units towards the protoss main while corsair have vision? That like "bisu im gonna drop you, you better build some defences" He shouldve just send the corsair away with hydras then drop...
Bisu played D- second game, quallity of play really droped out after the end of progame era. Runing corsairs over hydras, no bother to pull out corsairs that are targeted by hydras, wasting units everywhere. I mean come on i do better with corsairs than this :D Bisu looks crushed after game 2 i guess this series is done.
Game 3. Did Bisu just go afk at random moments?
Game 4. Bisu couldve gotten significant advantage if not won the game, if just pulled back 2 of his zealots to the side, after the rush finished, since he have enough to hold his ramp. How can he be so uncreative with such a common stuff. If he run pass the sunken, after lings go to his main with the 2 zealots, drones are out of the main.
Seems like Bisu was not here today, its like Shine has some dark power that negates Bisu multitasking skill.
And have really to say Shine outshines everybody in this tournament so far, brilliant performance and execution overall.
Regarding Bisu afk moment, did anyone see him fall asleep during shine's pregame interview. He looked out of it. My wife believes he was hung over lol. Obviously being sick or hung over aren't valid excuses, but he certainly looked off from start to finish. Shine sure has done a number on him.
I believe someone else has already posted this. Bisu was apparently 'sick' on the day of the game. Doesn't excuse his poor performance, but I'm sure it would've affected his play to some degree.
Yes, he said he went to outdoor for relax&fresh air at midnight, after long time pvz exercise. Unfortunately he caught a bit cold (roughly translated according to his interview before match).
Damn that explains it.
I wonder how the games would turn out if he was feeling well.
On May 28 2017 17:58 M2 wrote: Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
Everyone I was watching with caught that, we were all like "wtf is this kid talking about?" and "Is he high?" LOL "Why is Artosis letting him keep talking about it?"
But he was cut off by Shine's lurks finishing and moving up for the bust and subsequent win so it's all good.
On May 28 2017 17:58 M2 wrote: Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
Everyone I was watching with caught that, we were all like "wtf is this kid talking about?" and "Is he high?" LOL "Why is Artosis letting him keep talking about it?"
But he was cut off by Shine's lurks finishing and moving up for the bust and subsequent win so it's all good.
He should play 10 games a day on Icc for a few months. Like. How hard is it to micro a scouting probe vs one zergling? Rapid hyped that like Bisu did godly things when it's stuff I can do as a D/D+. They should have discussed what it meant that Shine let him scout to be able to drone up, what he could do with a strong economy. Instead we get 1 minute of bullshit hype. If he doesnt know then don't try too hard just say what's going on, let artosis do the expert role.
You only manage to keep a probe alive at the D/D+ level. Any higher level player will destroy your probe in a matter of moments.
Keeping a probe alive at the top level IS very hard to do, as is trying to destroy it. Stop trying to equate your experiences with those at the top level! This happens way too much in these threads.
Of course that does not mean I disagree with your point. I don't watch the English casts any more, and that would be one of the reasons.
Oh, Bisu was sick? I looked at the video where he was having his eyes closed during the pre-game interviews and I can understand him losing the series due to not being so sharp. Besides, Shine's play was really clean. Oh well, I hope Bisu gets physically better for the 3rd/4th place match against Soulkey and shows better games.
On May 28 2017 17:58 M2 wrote: Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
Everyone I was watching with caught that, we were all like "wtf is this kid talking about?" and "Is he high?" LOL "Why is Artosis letting him keep talking about it?"
But he was cut off by Shine's lurks finishing and moving up for the bust and subsequent win so it's all good.
He has also been casting SSL Classic with Neo Medusa. Pretty major misspeaking nonetheless, but it was only somewhat out of the blue, and not totally random.
On May 29 2017 00:57 B-royal wrote: You only manage to keep a probe alive at the D/D+ level. Any higher level player will destroy your probe in a matter of moments.
Keeping a probe alive at the top level IS very hard to do, as is trying to destroy it. Stop trying to equate your experiences with those at the top level! This happens way too much in these threads.
Of course that does not mean I disagree with your point. I don't watch the English casts any more, and that would be one of the reasons.
Okay, I'm only playing at C level but I rarely lose the probe unless the zerg player brings back 4 to 6 lings. Dodging two is not that difficult unless the zerg is VERY good at controlling his lings. Or of course has speed.
Even at pro level the truly good protosses, namely Bisu, are excellent at keeping the probe alive. There is no doubt that keeping a probe alive against more than a couple lings is very difficult, but it is something that can be achieved at any level of play.
On May 27 2017 20:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Ok just gonna put it out there: Zergs whine when Flash or Last beat JD, or even any good Zerg. But what we saw here is the best Protoss, nay best PvZer ever (by a landslide, it's not even close), losing to a good but not really a top tier Zerg. This isn't a balance post, it's actually the opposite. This is the please stop whining post.
It has to be said though, when was the last P who would comfortably win in PvZ BO5's? It's not so much one-off games. It's difficult to have a consistent style against Z, and its difficult to have a 'bag o builds' because Z has a variety of tricks especially in a BO5 - in my opinion that's a major difference in tournament play.
Last notable BO5 I remember a P winning (excluding a few years post-kespa) was Jangbi vs great. Top tier Z don't lose against P in series play, it's been so long since that was the case. After Bisu you got Movie and Shuttle - that's the top vZ lineup. Now list Zerg's good against P...
This isn't a balance whine however that's just the nature of the game although i do think it's unfortuate.
On May 27 2017 20:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Ok just gonna put it out there: Zergs whine when Flash or Last beat JD, or even any good Zerg. But what we saw here is the best Protoss, nay best PvZer ever (by a landslide, it's not even close), losing to a good but not really a top tier Zerg. This isn't a balance post, it's actually the opposite. This is the please stop whining post.
It has to be said though, when was the last P who would comfortably win in PvZ BO5's?
It was just last season. Best comfortably destroyed hero in a BO5.
On May 29 2017 00:57 B-royal wrote: You only manage to keep a probe alive at the D/D+ level. Any higher level player will destroy your probe in a matter of moments.
Keeping a probe alive at the top level IS very hard to do, as is trying to destroy it. Stop trying to equate your experiences with those at the top level! This happens way too much in these threads.
Of course that does not mean I disagree with your point. I don't watch the English casts any more, and that would be one of the reasons.
Okay, I'm only playing at C level but I rarely lose the probe unless the zerg player brings back 4 to 6 lings. Dodging two is not that difficult unless the zerg is VERY good at controlling his lings. Or of course has speed.
Even at pro level the truly good protosses, namely Bisu, are excellent at keeping the probe alive. There is no doubt that keeping a probe alive against more than a couple lings is very difficult, but it is something that can be achieved at any level of play.
I think if you lose your scout to anything less than 3 lings without speed something is very wrong, its not that hard to do tbh
On May 27 2017 20:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Ok just gonna put it out there: Zergs whine when Flash or Last beat JD, or even any good Zerg. But what we saw here is the best Protoss, nay best PvZer ever (by a landslide, it's not even close), losing to a good but not really a top tier Zerg. This isn't a balance post, it's actually the opposite. This is the please stop whining post.
It has to be said though, when was the last P who would comfortably win in PvZ BO5's?
It was just last season. Best comfortably destroyed hero in a BO5.
Well that is fair enough, i'm afraid i've not followed BW as closely post-kespa. You have to admit though, mostly Z is favoured - imo there is just less threatening top zergs in the 'new BW'. Watching the games is frustrating even knowing that minor mistakes will cost the game for P, to me personally at least. Z throws in a hydra bust, a lurker drop, ling runby etc. and there is no equivalent (check out Movies terrible 1gateway proxy earlier this ASL).
On May 27 2017 20:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Ok just gonna put it out there: Zergs whine when Flash or Last beat JD, or even any good Zerg. But what we saw here is the best Protoss, nay best PvZer ever (by a landslide, it's not even close), losing to a good but not really a top tier Zerg. This isn't a balance post, it's actually the opposite. This is the please stop whining post.
It has to be said though, when was the last P who would comfortably win in PvZ BO5's?
It was just last season. Best comfortably destroyed hero in a BO5.
Well that is fair enough, i'm afraid i've not followed BW as closely post-kespa. You have to admit though, mostly Z is favoured - imo there is just less threatening top zergs in the 'new BW'. Watching the games is frustrating even knowing that minor mistakes will cost the game for P, to me personally at least. Z throws in a hydra bust, a lurker drop, ling runby etc. and there is no equivalent (check out Movies terrible 1gateway proxy earlier this ASL).
Here is the VOD of Best vs hero. After you see it, you might begin to think that protoss is incredibly favored in pvz. Best's storms completely destroyed the zerg army. The zerg had no answer against Best's attacks. Minor mistakes cost the game for Z because each of Best's storm easily took out 5-6 hydras.
Hydra bust and overlord drops only seem broken because Shine is doing them. Shine's builds are optimized to kill an opponent in the early to mid game. If his timing attack had failed, his economy would collapse (ie: Game 1). If Hydra bust and overlord drops are really so broken, you would see it in every single zvp.
The saddest part about all this is that Bisu vs FlaSh would have been competitive, but now FlaSh is just going to roll through Shine. Hopefully, Shine can prove me wrong, though.
Why didn't Best just steamroll Hero in that video, after he defended against the 3 hatch hydra bust? I thought 3 hatch hydra bust was sort of all-in to where your economy is shot, but Hero manages to stay in the game.
On May 29 2017 00:57 B-royal wrote: You only manage to keep a probe alive at the D/D+ level. Any higher level player will destroy your probe in a matter of moments.
Keeping a probe alive at the top level IS very hard to do, as is trying to destroy it. Stop trying to equate your experiences with those at the top level! This happens way too much in these threads.
Of course that does not mean I disagree with your point. I don't watch the English casts any more, and that would be one of the reasons.
In a matter of moments one ling without speed will kill my probe?
On May 28 2017 17:58 M2 wrote: Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
Sounds like the guys was talking about Medusa map, maybe? Can't think of other map with such features.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died... I don't understand Korean but from the intensity of commentating I can infer if something is unusual. And the rest of it is just observing and trying to understand what is happening. With enough experience (both playing and watching) it is quite easy to tell who is ahead, and I don't need a commentators to tell me that.
The only issue is understanding the small nuances in builds, but English stream is not good for that anyway.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died...
During Flash vs Soulkey they wondered whether Soulkey's build could be a 3 hatch hydra break. In a ZvT.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died...
During Flash vs Soulkey they wondered whether Soulkey's build could be a 3 hatch hydra break. In a ZvT.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died...
During Flash vs Soulkey they wondered whether Soulkey's build could be a 3 hatch hydra break. In a ZvT.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died...
During Flash vs Soulkey they wondered whether Soulkey's build could be a 3 hatch hydra break. In a ZvT.
Jaedong vs flash game 3? Or was it game 4 in asl2... i think it was 2 hatch hydra bust but the point is hydra busta do happen, just very rarely in tvz
Yeah that commentator has driven me to switch to the Korean too. Has no clue what he is talking about and tries to hype everything. The moment that did it for me was when Soulkey plagued 4 MM and 1 science vessel and he was all like, "OMFG sickest plague ever, all over everything." He can't even see what's going on in front of him, let alone know what units beat which.
Anyways. I'm also disappointed that Bisu won't be in the finals. But it's great for Shine's reputation as the Bisu slayer. I have to give him credit; other zerg players much watch how he beats Bisu but those zergs haven't successfully copied! I'll be looking forward to the rematch.
I really like seeing a zerg like Shine emerge because zerg always dictate the pace of the game.
Whether it's ZvP or ZvT, the other race (unless decides to cheese) will always have to watch what the zerg is doing before they can decide their own builds. It's always reactionary, so a really well-prepared zerg would be able to surprise its opponents the way other races could never do.
Honestly, I had to rewatch the final push 3 times to really believe what happened. If i knew my opponent had 5 zealots and 2 cannons on a ramp, I would not try to push with 3 lurkers and 10 zerglings, but Shine made it happen. Bisu's zealot first went to attack lurkers when it shouldn't have, and was a bit indecisive with zealots once he pulled back... did not expect him to actually push and was too slow to protect top and then bottom cannon.
Shine was so prepared for the matchup, probably even practiced that ramp push with lurkers and knew exactly how many units he could beat with his unit composition.
On May 31 2017 04:29 Muff2n wrote: Yeah that commentator has driven me to switch to the Korean too. Has no clue what he is talking about and tries to hype everything. The moment that did it for me was when Soulkey plagued 4 MM and 1 science vessel and he was all like, "OMFG sickest plague ever, all over everything." He can't even see what's going on in front of him, let alone know what units beat which.
Yeah, the commentators are getting really bad lately. I was watching SSL Classic Light vs Soulkey, and terran went bunker rush to vultures, and the commentators were like wow, that is really bad, vultures are good against zerglings but he has no units to push zerg now, and should go mass barracks immediately. I was like wtf are you talking about, going MM now would just give zerg free macro and the only choice he has is to go wraith to harass or even go for kill. When Light actually made starport, they had no idea what was going on and even said it was a terrible move, then the whole game they were saying Light was so far behind when in fact he wasn't until he messed up multitask much later in the game.
Seriously, these guys need to play and watch more games.
Anyway, after Flash vs Last I switched to Korean stream as I felt the English commentators have no idea about what they are talking about half the time. Especially when it comes to meta/strategies, both current and from before the proleague died...
During Flash vs Soulkey they wondered whether Soulkey's build could be a 3 hatch hydra break. In a ZvT.
Jaedong vs flash game 3? Or was it game 4 in asl2... i think it was 2 hatch hydra bust but the point is hydra busta do happen, just very rarely in tvz
They do happen in very specific situations. Based on what Soulkey had scouted it was making absolutely zero sense to go for hydras. And with all the recent talks about hydra breaks ZvP it was clear they were totally confused there.
On May 31 2017 04:29 Muff2n wrote: Yeah that commentator has driven me to switch to the Korean too. Has no clue what he is talking about and tries to hype everything. The moment that did it for me was when Soulkey plagued 4 MM and 1 science vessel and he was all like, "OMFG sickest plague ever, all over everything." He can't even see what's going on in front of him, let alone know what units beat which.
Yeah, the commentators are getting really bad lately. I was watching SSL Classic Light vs Soulkey, and terran went bunker rush to vultures, and the commentators were like wow, that is really bad, vultures are good against zerglings but he has no units to push zerg now, and should go mass barracks immediately. I was like wtf are you talking about, going MM now would just give zerg free macro and the only choice he has is to go wraith to harass or even go for kill. When Light actually made starport, they had no idea what was going on and even said it was a terrible move, then the whole game they were saying Light was so far behind when in fact he wasn't until he messed up multitask much later in the game.
Seriously, these guys need to play and watch more games.
That's SSL, where Wolf and Rapid cast, they're not close to qualified for this job. They don't know the game well enough. They should just stick to sc2 or go to a serious bootcamp for Broodwar.
Artosis and Tasteless are still good though, Tasteless will be back for the finals.
Their insights of the current meta isn't as it was in 2010 but their casting is now also for new viewers to learn. I just watch the ASL and some streamed games when they're recommended but I don't really notice if Tasteless and Artosis are missing out on the current meta. I like them a lot, to me them getting to cast the game that brought them to korea in the first place, that they still love. That's just a perfect little fairytale adding on to it. They bring a lot of genuine energy to the cast, not just big hype:ish words.
It's sad that that one of them being gone for a few days is enought to make the cast extremely annoying. I don''t know what I'd do in Artosis shoes. Maybe he as the expert casting role should correct Rapid everytime Rapid is overhyping the wrong thing or just plainly wrong. But he's doing it in a kind of smooth way now. Like the game where Rapid overhyped Bisus scouting probe and it's survival vs one zergling. He should probably have stopped that directly but how could he know that Rapid would go on for 45 seconds about it. Anyway he did correct him in the next game when the scouting probe entered the base, he then took over the initiative and described the value, role and difficulty of the scouting probe.
If I was Artosis I'd try talking to Rapid about how he should cast, how it's better that he just describes what's going in front of him and asks questions when he doesn't. That'd be more honest than just hyping things he clearly doesn't understand and it'd help new viewers to understand the game. It's just unprofessional to pretend to know a game, state false things as fact. He fools the new viewers and kills the experience for older viewers. I wonder how many games of BW he's played at all. I haven't listened to Esportsjohn, Flashftw casting but they're probably a much better solution. There has to be better options out there who'd be up for some casting work in korea. Maybe some of the old boys Moletrap/Diggity/Nukethestars/Cholera/Klazart/Conaanaa?
So yeah. When Tasteless and Artosis casts I'm all for it. Otherwise I go korean, but maybe I should give Esportsjohn, Flashftw a chance.
Artosis and tasteless are boring. They tell the same jokes constantly, over react to their imagined hilarity, and I dont understand the emphasis on trying to teach newbs. Maybe most of their audience were sc2 players, but they've been casting bw for ages, and, either way, it doesnt take much to understand these things. They still occasionally stop mid cast to discuss how dragoons are hard to micro. Err...thanks man. I cant imagine who this niche demographic is that apparently is totally uncomprehending, but they cast as if they exist.
On June 01 2017 09:38 Dazed_Spy wrote: Artosis and tasteless are boring. They tell the same jokes constantly, over react to their imagined hilarity, and I dont understand the emphasis on trying to teach newbs. Maybe most of their audience were sc2 players, but they've been casting bw for ages, and, either way, it doesnt take much to understand these things. They still occasionally stop mid cast to discuss how dragoons are hard to micro. Err...thanks man. I cant imagine who this niche demographic is that apparently is totally uncomprehending, but they cast as if they exist.
They still get 5k views and the cast that caters to veterans recieves barely any. So they have no reason to change a recipe that breeds success.
On June 01 2017 09:38 Dazed_Spy wrote: Artosis and tasteless are boring. They tell the same jokes constantly, over react to their imagined hilarity, and I dont understand the emphasis on trying to teach newbs. Maybe most of their audience were sc2 players, but they've been casting bw for ages, and, either way, it doesnt take much to understand these things. They still occasionally stop mid cast to discuss how dragoons are hard to micro. Err...thanks man. I cant imagine who this niche demographic is that apparently is totally uncomprehending, but they cast as if they exist.
Well agree to disagree. I'd call "imagined hilarity" just "hilarity". And this demographic do exist. To what extent, that I don't know though. But if they don't. Well then English casting in korea is probably dead. Sc2 had a much bigger audience outside korea than BW had, with SC:R coming up that's gonna be the main source of new players and viewers. Atm, it's the sc2 people coming from playing sc2 or watching GSL where Artosis and Tasteless probably talk about ASL as well.
On May 28 2017 17:58 M2 wrote: Kind off topic but did you guys hear one of the commentators talking about some stacked temples on Outsider that you can snipe faster with lurkers and get from the enemy's back or something. Like what the fuck was that bullshit xDD
Everyone I was watching with caught that, we were all like "wtf is this kid talking about?" and "Is he high?" LOL "Why is Artosis letting him keep talking about it?"
But he was cut off by Shine's lurks finishing and moving up for the bust and subsequent win so it's all good.
He should play 10 games a day on Icc for a few months. Like. How hard is it to micro a scouting probe vs one zergling? Rapid hyped that like Bisu did godly things when it's stuff I can do as a D/D+. They should have discussed what it meant that Shine let him scout to be able to drone up, what he could do with a strong economy. Instead we get 1 minute of bullshit hype. If he doesnt know then don't try too hard just say what's going on, let artosis do the expert role.
Too bad Artosis is by far not qualified for the expert role at all, either. While I do think there were fewer moments in the games I watched (only bisu/shine, bisu/soulkey and flash/shine) compared to last season where it was a total "wtf that's not even close"-moment, he still spews out a bit of basic/more advanced stuff wrong. He seems to know the BW history well at least (but maybe I just feel that way because I never followed the pro scene very closely and wouldn't even know if he was providing wrong information). One that really made me think twice was when Artosis confirmed to Rapid that lurkers are affected by the miss-chance of attacking high ground. Lurkers are not affected by that, their attacks do not count as ranged in that kind of way. They just attack in a direction and everything in their way gets hit (you can dodge it only by moving out of the slow animation's path). And if you focus a unit on the high ground, it will get hit every hit, not just 49% of the time.
Also regarding Bisu's play, it felt completely off. Maybe he was sick and his concentration wasn't on point, but the way he lost some of these corsairs just didn't seem right. But that can happen, being nervous + not feeling well can definitely affect that. But what really stood out to me was his zealot vs zergling micro. It was oftentimes non-existent. His zealot vs zergling micro is usually marvelous and has taught me so much. How to focus the lings and move the zealots back and forth, etc. He did none of that at several occasions, almost as if he wasn't even trying. It seemed like a completely different player.
On June 01 2017 09:38 Dazed_Spy wrote: Artosis and tasteless are boring. They tell the same jokes constantly, over react to their imagined hilarity, and I dont understand the emphasis on trying to teach newbs. Maybe most of their audience were sc2 players, but they've been casting bw for ages, and, either way, it doesnt take much to understand these things. They still occasionally stop mid cast to discuss how dragoons are hard to micro. Err...thanks man. I cant imagine who this niche demographic is that apparently is totally uncomprehending, but they cast as if they exist.
They still get 5k views and the cast that caters to veterans recieves barely any. So they have no reason to change a recipe that breeds success.
Which cast caters to veterans? Because I agree with Dazed_Spy and I find Tastosis boring and not up-to-date.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NzYXveY.gif)
VS ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oin6hNf.gif)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/State/bisu.png)
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... wrap me in your manlot arms as you multitask shine into oblivion.
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