On May 17 2017 02:35 M2 wrote: Why is everyone assuming that Flash is a given finalist? Going through Last and Soulkey does not look so free to me
Because he's pretty much the best player ever to play the game...and it's a lot easier to remember how awesome he was than to look at the momentary glimpses of Last, Soulkey and say that they can even touch the Ultimate Weapon. The only one who's got a shot is BeSt. His PvT is very good, but his PvZ is putrid and he'll probably lose to Soulkey.
In sum, Flash is Flash, 'nuff said.
Last has the best chance, he went 3-0 in ASL1 and Flash was already in very good form. Best and Bisu (and even Soulkey) have Outsider and Andromeda, so without Camelot double map it's absolutely doable. That said, all of them are underdogs of course.
Pretty much. I think Last can actually beat Flash. Not 3-0 of course, maybe 3-1 or 3-2. Regardless, it'll be really intense. Flash might be solid and the GOAT but Last is just as great of a player at the moment and has been keeping up with him in rankings for the last good year or so. Also, not sure how many posters remember but Last's TvT is one of his strong matchups. It's actually amazing to see how he has grown since the SSL days. I'm talking drastic improvements.
His TvT was solid back then to the point where he rode it to the finals while his TvP/Z needed work. I remember back when he lost to Guemchi's forge FE and Kwarno's zerg on Sin Peaks of Baedu in SSL10. I was not impressed with his matchups other than TvT but he's made such a turnaround these last couple of years. If Last beats Flash, I think he has a shot at the finals but there's always a chance that BeSt will become the macro monster he was last season (if he beats SK) or that SK will upset him much like ATB finals. Then there always Bisu (if he beats Shine) or Shine who I wouldn't hesitate to call a monster at series' preparation.
Basically, Last is one of the contenders for top players atm and I think Flash fans should be a bit concerned about him facing Last. I could go on and on... Anyways, for me, there's a great storyline to write about if any of the players win the finals and I'm expecting some intense games (except BeSt vs SK, that might be a stomp unless BeSt pulls off the same form during hero last ASL) so all good :D
You have a lot more faith in Last's TvT than I do. I will admit Last's TvZ is currently monstrous and I don't think there's a Zerg around who could best him in a Bo5 (and watching streams, it might be worse than I'm even letting on) but Flash might have the best TvT in BW history. I know anything can happen in a Bo5, but my intuition is screaming that it'll be a 3-1 victory for Lee Young Ho.
ya, I'm not really doubting Flash's overall ability. I just think that Last is one of the only players atm that can upset Flash and based on their history (ASL1 record and very close sponmatch results over the last five months etc...), he has the capability to pull it off especially with TvT being the matchup that he rode on in the past to get to SSL finals and has only improved it more since then. Either way, I think we're in for some really close and intense games so in the end, we're going to be victorious ^^
On May 17 2017 12:38 Essbee wrote:
On May 17 2017 10:09 usopsama wrote: I am rewatching game 2 and I still can't believe Shine's guardians were able to brute-force their way into the front of Mong's base like that after being scouted. His guardians even had to fly across the map. Crazy.
I have been watching Brood War for ten years and I can't recall a memorable game where a zerg used guardians to brute-force their way into the front of a terran's base like that, after being scouted.
Don't know if it could work again but that was hard for Mong to defend, even if he would have had 1 or 2 more wraiths.
You could also do it this way as well marines > hydras tanks > lurkers wraiths > guardians
Haha true, but guardians out-range wraiths, so wraiths have to get closer and then get killed by hydras. Well at least that's how it worked in that specific game, but yeah it could easily go the other way around :D
The thing is, guardians die really quickly vs wraiths if you have a critical number. Hydras get eaten pretty quickly by M&M+Tanks as well. Mong just didn't have enough wraiths out initially so he lost all of his army to the guardians. If he had ~8 wraiths or so out before the push happend, he would have held easily. Because once the guardians are dead, it's a bunch of hydra/lurker against M&M+tanks, which is pretty terrible if you aren't ahead 3 bases.
On May 17 2017 02:35 M2 wrote: Why is everyone assuming that Flash is a given finalist? Going through Last and Soulkey does not look so free to me
Because he's pretty much the best player ever to play the game...and it's a lot easier to remember how awesome he was than to look at the momentary glimpses of Last, Soulkey and say that they can even touch the Ultimate Weapon. The only one who's got a shot is BeSt. His PvT is very good, but his PvZ is putrid and he'll probably lose to Soulkey.
In sum, Flash is Flash, 'nuff said.
Last has the best chance, he went 3-0 in ASL1 and Flash was already in very good form. Best and Bisu (and even Soulkey) have Outsider and Andromeda, so without Camelot double map it's absolutely doable. That said, all of them are underdogs of course.
Pretty much. I think Last can actually beat Flash. Not 3-0 of course, maybe 3-1 or 3-2. Regardless, it'll be really intense. Flash might be solid and the GOAT but Last is just as great of a player at the moment and has been keeping up with him in rankings for the last good year or so. Also, not sure how many posters remember but Last's TvT is one of his strong matchups. It's actually amazing to see how he has grown since the SSL days. I'm talking drastic improvements.
His TvT was solid back then to the point where he rode it to the finals while his TvP/Z needed work. I remember back when he lost to Guemchi's forge FE and Kwarno's zerg on Sin Peaks of Baedu in SSL10. I was not impressed with his matchups other than TvT but he's made such a turnaround these last couple of years. If Last beats Flash, I think he has a shot at the finals but there's always a chance that BeSt will become the macro monster he was last season (if he beats SK) or that SK will upset him much like ATB finals. Then there always Bisu (if he beats Shine) or Shine who I wouldn't hesitate to call a monster at series' preparation.
Basically, Last is one of the contenders for top players atm and I think Flash fans should be a bit concerned about him facing Last. I could go on and on... Anyways, for me, there's a great storyline to write about if any of the players win the finals and I'm expecting some intense games (except BeSt vs SK, that might be a stomp unless BeSt pulls off the same form during hero last ASL) so all good :D
You have a lot more faith in Last's TvT than I do. I will admit Last's TvZ is currently monstrous and I don't think there's a Zerg around who could best him in a Bo5 (and watching streams, it might be worse than I'm even letting on) but Flash might have the best TvT in BW history. I know anything can happen in a Bo5, but my intuition is screaming that it'll be a 3-1 victory for Lee Young Ho.
ya, I'm not really doubting Flash's overall ability. I just think that Last is one of the only players atm that can upset Flash and based on their history (ASL1 record and very close sponmatch results over the last five months etc...), he has the capability to pull it off especially with TvT being the matchup that he rode on in the past to get to SSL finals and has only improved it more since then. Either way, I think we're in for some really close and intense games so in the end, we're going to be victorious ^^
On May 17 2017 12:38 Essbee wrote:
On May 17 2017 10:09 usopsama wrote: I am rewatching game 2 and I still can't believe Shine's guardians were able to brute-force their way into the front of Mong's base like that after being scouted. His guardians even had to fly across the map. Crazy.
I have been watching Brood War for ten years and I can't recall a memorable game where a zerg used guardians to brute-force their way into the front of a terran's base like that, after being scouted.
Don't know if it could work again but that was hard for Mong to defend, even if he would have had 1 or 2 more wraiths.
You could also do it this way as well marines > hydras tanks > lurkers wraiths > guardians
Haha true, but guardians out-range wraiths, so wraiths have to get closer and then get killed by hydras. Well at least that's how it worked in that specific game, but yeah it could easily go the other way around :D
The thing is, guardians die really quickly vs wraiths if you have a critical number. Hydras get eaten pretty quickly by M&M+Tanks as well. Mong just didn't have enough wraiths out initially so he lost all of his army to the guardians. If he had ~8 wraiths or so out before the push happend, he would have held easily. Because once the guardians are dead, it's a bunch of hydra/lurker against M&M+tanks, which is pretty terrible if you aren't ahead 3 bases.
Yeah I agree with you, but I think if you can somehow make the terran spend a lot of money on wraiths, it can be a good thing because you can pick them off with hydras/scourges before engaging with guardians. And if he's too passive with wraiths and then terran decided to try and push you, I think guardians are an excellent defensive unit, they are just hard to control since they are slow so you have to make sure they are never out of position. So yeah they are quite a risky unit, but I think they have a decent potential.
Jaedong is so confident saying that Mong had won game 2 with that drop, saying how the guardian army is never gonna get anything done. And then, he sees it!
God, I want Shine and Jaedong to become best pals and train together 24/7 after watching that video.
And it is so funny how Shine improvised the proxy nydus, hey, he didn't kill the buildings, lets go for it! But he rushed and then Shine had a muta presence so he never really had the opportunity to kill them off, made sense!
Man, these 2 Bo5 sets so far has been some of the most entertaining and awesome sets ever and I can't believe that we get to experience this when I thought this level of BW was dead a couple of years ago.
I miss Fantasy, I miss Jangbi, I wanna see some new fresh talent emerge onto the scene and surprise us all!
Thousands of zergs are now re-evaluating how they approach the game. Those games were 1st~Tsunami-esque where tactics trumped sheer numbers, I miss watching tsunamis replays. Everybody seems to be a worse version of whoever is best in that race, it's good Shine took a big chance on his own interpretation of good strategy
Even Jaedong is surprised that Shine won with guardians. Shine's hydras had no upgrades whatsoever. My mind is still blown. How the fuck did he win?
I wonder if it was a mistake to pull back to regroup after the first engagement. When he pulled back, he immediately lost two tanks and ended up in a tight choke.
On May 18 2017 06:50 usopsama wrote: Even Jaedong is surprised that Shine won with guardians. Shine's hydras had no upgrades whatsoever. My mind is still blown. How the fuck did he win?
I wonder if it was a mistake to pull back to regroup after the first engagement. When he pulled back, he immediately lost two tanks and ended up in a tight choke.
had he backed up with those as well to his bunkers and turrets then maybe he'd have time to get another wraith, come from the side with them instead of head on to the hydras. But this is all captain hindsight stuff, Flash would probably not forget to unsiege his tanks but that was an intense battle, any Terran would make mistakes there.(Except Flash cuz he's not any Terran)
The fight in open ground is better for the terran ground against the range of the guardians. But maybe Mong thought he could bleed out Shine with irradiate and wraiths while conserving his ground army in his base.
EPT
