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On May 02 2017 20:40 BisuDagger wrote:Sea had 2-3 done so fast in that game. I think that's why he stayed longer then it felt like he should have. It was late sure, but I think even with all the SCVs gone he still had a scary army.
Yes, but scary army isn't scary when protoss has 6 bases and you have no bases and no production.
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On May 03 2017 06:30 B-royal wrote:
My favourite player can't perform in tournaments any more. Feels bad...
Lol wut?
He cruises out of Ro24 group 2-0.
Then he gets to this group and smashes Sea with ease. Goes to ZvZ and plays very well, only to lose to SK who is also ridiculously strong and judged this game to perfection.
He drops a set to Bisu, who has been sporting an 80% WR lately and practicing like a machine, and in this case probably exclusively for PvZ, as I doubt he was too worried about Sea. EffOrt's damn good, but especially as of late I'd have to say BvE is a little tilted in favor of Bisu if anything at the moment.
Now he did go out 0-2 in ASL2 which is uninspiring, but again let's not forget the circumstances: Rain playing one of the best PvZs we have seen in a LONG time, and then he lost to one of the best TvZers of all time in Light. To me, this hardly adds up to "can't perform in tournamnets". He has faced some VERY strong opponents playing some of their best games and still almost scraped by.
Aside from that, lets see what we have :
Currently 2-1 in SSL Classic, with a ZvZ loss to herO, aka 2 wins and a loss in a finnicky matchup to a top zerg
1st VANT Starleague
Ro24 Exit in ASL 1
The Ro24 exit in ASL1 is his one truly bad performance in my opinion, where he failed to advance from Shuttle/Ssak/Free. That's one day out of many though, and coming off the VANT win, where it's common for players to practice a bit less having put in a ton of work to win the previous major league.
Beyond that, he has played a barrage of solid games against strong opponents. He is showing good games and smashing any non top tier players. It's disheartening he hasn't quite been able to beat the Bisu's, Flash's, and Light's, of the world; but given the fact he is playing competitive games it seems far more likely that the roll of the dice just hasn't been going in his favor.
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On May 02 2017 21:12 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2017 21:06 TheNewEra wrote:On May 02 2017 21:03 Lachrymose wrote:So what you're saying is Bisu is an idiot and you understand PvZ better than him. Got it. First you make some strange points about greedyness that no one seems to understand except you and now you start to needlessly attack people. What's wrong with you? Uh-huh, his dismissive attitude was totally okay and my was totally wrong. My point is not hard to understand. It's extremely simple. Every time a progamer gets an auto-loss doing something greedy people positively drip out of the woodwork to say or imply they're stupid. Like these progamers don't understand playing greedy and if only they knew how to play safe they would never lose. It's insulting. They play greedy because they know that it's good. It's that simple. If you don't agree explain to me why exactly you think progamers constantly get it 'wrong' and do 'dumb' greedy builds. If it's so simple for Bisu to take a safe 3 base and collect his free win why doesn't he do it? What doesn't he know that you experts do? Yeah, it's super fucking easy to watch a loss and go he shouldn't have done the thing that lost this game but again, that's results oriented thinking which I'm sure you're familiar with and understand why it's not a good approach. People know that and they do it anyway.
I don't want to revive the fight, but just wanted to and say that your overall point is totally correct, and I'm glad you were making it.
It's really silly / dumb / annoying / results oriented thinking when people say stuff like "but THAT'S why he lost ... he was greedy!". As a player, you have to take selectively those chances from time to time, because when you don't get countered, your chances of winning go up substantially. Not that different from 12 Nex or 14 CC, or going 9 pool.
Obviously if you do the same stuff too much so as to become predictable, then it's dumb. But you know what's really dumb? Always playing standard. Always getting that second Cannon. Always playing "safe". If game sense can save you a few hundred minerals 80% of the time, then maybe you should do it. Or maybe you think 80% isn't a good enough rate. That's reasonable to debate.
But stuff like what people on TL like to say, such as "always get the second Cannon when you're in the blind" is ridiculous. As if the pros don't realize the risk they're taking there, from the 10,000+ games they've played. You know what pros also know? The value of cutting a Cannon for their overall build, when playing against someone else who is also really fucking good at BW.
Sometimes your star sense gets countered by the other guy's star sense. It happens at this level. Cross map PvZ on Andromeda can be quite tough for Protoss. Soulkey is incredibly good at late game Zerg - as good as anyone out there. Bisu lost his first DT way earlier than expected, because of great Overlord placement by Soulkey (and perhaps luck or perhaps deliberate timing on his Mutas). So he lost the ability to pull that DT back and suicide Corsairs against Overlords to counter an aggressive Hydra bust. At that point, he was partly committed to his build and decided to just bet on Soulkey, a player known for being a late game oriented Zerg, not committing to such an aggressive attack on cross map positions on one of the biggest maps out there. He bet wrong. Like I said, it happens.
The goal is to increase your chance of winning, not "decrease your chance of losing in a less stupid looking way". People don't count the times a player won because they cut a Cannon based off of game sense, because the benefit is not as visible. Perhaps cutting a Cannon was part of a greedy build to get the third Nexus faster, which within minutes leads to a bunch more minerals faster (so it's not "only 150 minerals"), which leads to a stronger timing attack designed against a standard ZvP style on Andromeda. I'm not claiming that's actually what happened here, but just giving an example of what is possible. Observers almost never notice the benefits of these moves - we mostly only notice when trying to be greedy gets punished. Hence the results-oriented bias.
If people want to debate whether or not the tradeoffs and risks Bisu chose made sense, that's fine, just as one can debate whether the process behind a poker player re-raising versus folding, going all-in versus calling, etc., made sense. But saying "bad move" because it didn't work is no different than blindly saying "bad move" when a pro poker player bluffs and gets called, as if the pro doesn't realize that bluffs can get called.
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On May 03 2017 06:41 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 01:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On May 03 2017 00:29 Xeln4g4 wrote:
Bisu realized he was at risk of elimination after he lost shuttle vs Sea ... and from there on: Bisu showtime!!! O_O Don't miss these wonderful gamesssssss!!!!! Totally agree. I almost cried when he lost that first shuttle. Then... Multiple shuttle plays + storm + arbiter! Just wow! Amazing multitasking by the taek shin himself... Then, that recall! Oh well, that was not good and I thought Sea would recover but I guess bisu was just BM'ing Sea. Huh? He was so far ahead when he lost that shuttle that it almost didn't matter.  Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 05:59 arbiter_md wrote:
Now, since Bisu and Shine advanced from second place they both will have to advance to Ro4. I don't see any other way this tournament could go.
Anyway, the last two games were good and I felt like Bisu got a little lucky. Or maybe he knew the mutas would come from top direction, and not from the left side of the map to get directly to hts. He actually had his army patroling. The only way for the mutas to get in would have been from the very back, which is highly unlikely consindering effort probably though Bisu would keep the templars with his army.
He lost his first shuttle and reaver and let Sea take an uncontested 3rd, against Last or Flash who might have handled his later harass better it would be gg
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On May 03 2017 07:17 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 06:30 B-royal wrote:
My favourite player can't perform in tournaments any more. Feels bad... Lol wut? He cruises out of Ro24 group 2-0. Then he gets to this group and smashes Sea with ease. Goes to ZvZ and plays very well, only to lose to SK who is also ridiculously strong and judged this game to perfection. He drops a set to Bisu, who has been sporting an 80% WR lately and practicing like a machine, and in this case probably exclusively for PvZ, as I doubt he was too worried about Sea. EffOrt's damn good, but especially as of late I'd have to say BvE is a little tilted in favor of Bisu if anything at the moment. Now he did go out 0-2 in ASL2 which is uninspiring, but again let's not forget the circumstances: Rain playing one of the best PvZs we have seen in a LONG time, and then he lost to one of the best TvZers of all time in Light. To me, this hardly adds up to "can't perform in tournamnets". He has faced some VERY strong opponents playing some of their best games and still almost scraped by. Aside from that, lets see what we have : Currently 2-1 in SSL Classic, with a ZvZ loss to herO, aka 2 wins and a loss in a finnicky matchup to a top zerg 1st VANT Starleague Ro24 Exit in ASL 1 The Ro24 exit in ASL1 is his one truly bad performance in my opinion, where he failed to advance from Shuttle/Ssak/Free. That's one day out of many though, and coming off the VANT win, where it's common for players to practice a bit less having put in a ton of work to win the previous major league. Beyond that, he has played a barrage of solid games against strong opponents. He is showing good games and smashing any non top tier players. It's disheartening he hasn't quite been able to beat the Bisu's, Flash's, and Light's, of the world; but given the fact he is playing competitive games it seems far more likely that the roll of the dice just hasn't been going in his favor.
Yeah, Effort's totally fine. Had a couple 1-2 days at the wrong time, against really strong opponents. Only the VANT drop out was bad like you said, and even then, those days happen to everyone (and it's not like Ssak, Shuttle, Free is a total scrub group...).
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, everyone had their rough 0-2 or 1-2 day oops now you're out of MSL experience a couple of times.
Problem is, there's this narrative being peddled by some on TL that Effort "isn't clutch" or "isn't that good". It's already taken hold, so until Effort goes deep into ASL, he's stuck with it, like many other dumb small sample size narratives.
The great thing about 2017 is we literally get 50+ game sample sizes on each player *per month* via their sponmatches. While sponmatches aren't as serious as other matches, the winner does usually make *more money*, so the incentive is there. Consequently, we really do have a good sense of what shape someone is in over time. This isn't like during the glory days where, even with 5 days a week proleague, players rarely played more than 10 publicly visible games in a single month. It's a great time to be a fan.
But hey, looks like "Effort isn't clutch" lives on for another ~4 months at least, all the while he continues to put up the best month-to-month results of any Zerg (I know he isn't always #1 out of Zergs every month, but take the last ~6 months of results and he's the best overall by far). All the while the fact remains, if you had to pick one Zerg to play one game, or one series, and your life depended on it, you would be a fool not to pick Effort. There's a reason people like eonzerg consider Effort the best. There's a reason Shine said Jaedong and Effort were the two best Zergs, almost as if there wasn't any debate to be had.
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On May 03 2017 07:38 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 07:17 L_Master wrote:On May 03 2017 06:30 B-royal wrote:
My favourite player can't perform in tournaments any more. Feels bad... Lol wut? He cruises out of Ro24 group 2-0. Then he gets to this group and smashes Sea with ease. Goes to ZvZ and plays very well, only to lose to SK who is also ridiculously strong and judged this game to perfection. He drops a set to Bisu, who has been sporting an 80% WR lately and practicing like a machine, and in this case probably exclusively for PvZ, as I doubt he was too worried about Sea. EffOrt's damn good, but especially as of late I'd have to say BvE is a little tilted in favor of Bisu if anything at the moment. Now he did go out 0-2 in ASL2 which is uninspiring, but again let's not forget the circumstances: Rain playing one of the best PvZs we have seen in a LONG time, and then he lost to one of the best TvZers of all time in Light. To me, this hardly adds up to "can't perform in tournamnets". He has faced some VERY strong opponents playing some of their best games and still almost scraped by. Aside from that, lets see what we have : Currently 2-1 in SSL Classic, with a ZvZ loss to herO, aka 2 wins and a loss in a finnicky matchup to a top zerg 1st VANT Starleague Ro24 Exit in ASL 1 The Ro24 exit in ASL1 is his one truly bad performance in my opinion, where he failed to advance from Shuttle/Ssak/Free. That's one day out of many though, and coming off the VANT win, where it's common for players to practice a bit less having put in a ton of work to win the previous major league. Beyond that, he has played a barrage of solid games against strong opponents. He is showing good games and smashing any non top tier players. It's disheartening he hasn't quite been able to beat the Bisu's, Flash's, and Light's, of the world; but given the fact he is playing competitive games it seems far more likely that the roll of the dice just hasn't been going in his favor. Yeah, Effort's totally fine. Had a couple 1-2 days at the wrong time, against really strong opponents. Only the VANT drop out was bad like you said, and even then, those days happen to everyone (and it's not like Ssak, Shuttle, Free is a total scrub group...). Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, everyone had their rough 0-2 or 1-2 day oops now you're out of MSL experience a couple of times. Problem is, t here's this narrative being peddled by some on TL that Effort "isn't clutch" or "isn't that good". It's already taken hold, so until Effort goes deep into ASL, he's stuck with it, like many other dumb small sample size narratives. The great thing about 2017 is we literally get 50+ game sample sizes on each player *per month* via their sponmatches. While sponmatches aren't as serious as other matches, the winner does usually make *more money*, so the incentive is there. Consequently, we really do have a good sense of what shape someone is in over time. This isn't like during the glory days where, even with 5 days a week proleague, players rarely played more than 10 publicly visible games in a single month. It's a great time to be a fan. But hey, looks like "Effort isn't clutch" lives on for another ~4 months at least, all the while he continues to put up the best month-to-month results of any Zerg (I know he isn't always #1 out of Zergs every month, but take the last ~6 months of results and he's the best overall by far). All the while the fact remains, if you had to pick one Zerg to play one game, or one series, and your life depended on it, you would be a fool not to pick Effort. There's a reason people like eonzerg consider Effort the best. There's a reason Shine said Jaedong and Effort were the two best Zergs, almost as if there wasn't any debate to be had.
Yea, I see this thrown around sometimes, and I can only chuckle a little bit. You're talking about a guy who came back to reverse all kill FlaSh at the height of his power on the OSL stage in front of thousands.
The type of player to be able to do that is not the type of player that has issues with pressure.
Anybody that thinks EffOrt in general isn't that good I can only assume never plays or watches much BW. EffOrt's skill is clear enough just watching VODs, and downright blinding if you watch him play on stream.
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Man this group was stacked a f. Bisu has been looking unbeatable and Soulkey is on a God tear. Rip my boy effort) :
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+ Show Spoiler +Bisu so good it's ridiculous. Both games, specially the pvt, were a masterclass on how to play this game. The loss was to a sick timing atack more tan anything
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Sea played so passively after getting ahead. That's just asking to get Bisu'd.
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The games between Flash/Hyun and Sea/Effort is a perfect example of why BW is more about player skill and maps rather race imbalance.
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So, I am deeply deeply in love with Bisu after those 2 last games.
Jesus christ. I have never seen the multitasking protoss strategy look so overwhelming.
I am a bit surprised that Soulkey seemed to be such an underdog, he was so damn good in the team battle and single handily won it for team Guemchi.
He has been so on point with strategy and details in his play lately.
Effort is great as well, such tiny details that lost him the game vs soulkey, the drone pull and hold was insane. The way Effort snuck in with a lot of lings but still didn't kill any drones was just silly.
Both played a great zvz but soulkey was had a tiny tiny edge in each little battle and it snowballed into a crushing win.
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Pleasantly surprised to see Soulkey make it out, Group B was really anyone's game but admittedly I placed Soulkey last on my mind.
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that last game is legendary
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On May 03 2017 00:57 mcmascote wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2017 20:37 Soulforged wrote:
Bisu finally making his own PvT style, keyed to his strengths. That's going to be something that's hard to get relevant practice against, for his opponents. Hmmm, that's the JangBi PvT style that Stork (his former teammate) used too with great success. But worse. Believe it or not. Key differences is that Jangbi was so confident on his reaver play that he'd grab a third while going reaver and with only 2 gates, then he'd build gate and macro while microoing. If the T tried a timing push, he'd destroy with a group of goons and that reaver play. If the T tried to outthink him by going 'liaths for defense, he'd then stop the shuttle, add another one then go for 4 zeas 2 reavers drop and erase the poor liaths. Then the shuttle speed also allows him to transition to his deadliest weapon: templars on a shuttle. That's also what bisu did, but you could see that on the first fight on Sea's min Bisu's storms were kinda poor. He had only two HTs on the shuttle and a couple of others walking and you could notice he was a bit slow on the first storm and then had a good one, but the HTs he dropped died and he needed another storm to kill a big group of tanks that were damaged, and it came a bit late after losing almost all his zeas.
Bisu: "Everything, everywhere, all the time"
LMAO
Bisu showed his pure professionalism amidst his mistakes in these games. Perseverance and constant agression in those last two games shows that he is determined to make it all the way.
Lets talk about those templars again. WOW the way he was taking out those SCVs so efficiently while microing the frontal assalts was perfection. I can only imagine the craziness that replay would look like from his perspective.
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Too bad Effort didn't advance. 
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Incredible games by Bisu. That last game in particular where Effort was pulling off some great plays but Bisu was just low-key getting a stronger economy than him and finishing the game off with some amazing multitasking.
Effort really put a lot of resources into that early Hydra muta play. His fourth was so late. That hatch placement at the 9 o clock though. That was such a sick play.
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Btw I dont get why Zergs dont build a sunken and keep 1 overlord in the main mid-late game? I've seen countless of Zergs can wrecked by one single DT where one sunken and overlord could have saved tons of trouble.
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"I will show EVERYTHING that protoss is capable of." - Bisu 2017
Hmm where have I heard that before??? Oh yes.
"You have yet to witness!!! The TRUE POWER of the protoss!!" - Tassadar (Starcraft Final Metamorphosis)
Bisu is literally Tassadar now. After seeing that clutch HT play, a well earned comparison.
Now, I watched the VOD a few hours ago. I made sure to stay the F*** away from this site until I watched everything spoiler free; popcorn demolished, and every comment on this thread, read. Here is my response..
First, I want to say that it is GREAT to see the best protoss of all time make it to the top 8. Lets be honest here, these darn zerg are getting out of hand lately. I knew going in that if anyone was going to comeback and clintch a second spot after losing their first in THIS group, it would have to have been bisu. Way too much talent here overall.
In no wise whatsoever, can I desrespect ANY of the ones who were eliminated tonight. The competition was TOP Tier. I also want to congratulate SoulKey for impressing everyone tonight. He truly is starting to show just how much of a threat he can be to anyone. You zerg players should definitely be excited about this up-and-coming BW youngblood. If he keeps playing at this level, we may see him in the Top 4.
Given that Bisu was 6-0 with soulkey prior to tonight, my only assumption is that Bisu chose his build based off of what he did correctly in the prior 6 wins against Soulkey. He made a gamble, and crapped out on that first loss. His response to that loss was nothing short of legendary, and soulkey better hope he does not see him again this season lol.
Soulkey did his thing, BUT MAN WAS HE SHAKY!!!
Idk if thats what he always does or if it was a shaky knee but if you go back and watch his cam, dat boi was damn near shivering. HE WAS SOO ANXIOUS lol. The funny thing is that he seemed a bit impatient, which made sense with the shivering (or knee bouncing) Like he knew his best chance against this group was trying to finish the matches as quick as possible. For a second there I was literally worried that he was having a mini panic attack, but hes a professional Im sure it was nothing. It just seemed funny to me.
Against effort, he showed some awesome micro. It demanded my respect even after being pissed off about him beating Bisu. I lowkey wanted effort to win against SK just so that Bisu could try to get a rematch. Its whatever, I personally would prefer SK over Effort in the R8 because I know Effort is most likely a more powerful threat in a best of 3 against players like Flash, JD and Bisu, and Best.
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I had to let it sink in for a moment that Bisu eliminated both Sea and Effort back to back, Im sure either one of them wanted to avoid playing Bisu as much as possible .
Those final matches were INCREDIBLE. I'm talkin perfectly timed zealot pushes on the frontlines, clutch arbiter Stasis casts, and harassment performed to perfection!
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"Everything, Everywhere, All the time" is my slogan for Bisu now lol.
The way he baited the vultures with the zealots for the goons to clean up, while avoiding the range of Sea's Tanks, and then cleaning up the tanks with the lots... I had to rewatch this match twice because I learned quite a bit from the way he placed everything so well. He avoided a TON of seas mines, taking full advantage of his map control to flank from the best locations.
Those Reavers hitting 2 armories and 2 supply depots all at once was as satisfying to watch as a perfectly poured cup of beer. After Bisu's first shuttle got embarrased, it was like bisu was sayin,
"No F-U im gonna get more reavers and im gonna do whatever the hell I want because I'm Bisu."
Sea's GG timing was hilarious but cool because I love seeing toss blow everything tf up. Goons and Lots just pushing in and ingesting Seas main base was borderline therapeudic.
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Against Effort, take note of Bisu's wall-in/sim-city. That ended up playing a big factor against Effort's first Hydra pushes. The gateway was left in flames, but it stood strong. The zealots evicted the Hydras from the wall like bosses, buying the HT enough time to gain PsiStorm.
Effort had the right idea with his flanking but Bisu seemed to be right on top of things. I was expecting a doomsday drop from effort at one point but he may have been discouraged from following through with it.
"Those Mutas.... DIDNT REALLY PAY OFF!" - Artosis mini raged at Effort when he recognised that Bisu still had alot of Templars.
The zealots that "For Aiur'ed" tf out of Effort's right-side expansion, followed by efforts egg wall in of the century; made me jump out of my seat yelling louder than my brother in the other room that was watching the NBA playoffs (in an overtime game, mind you).
So he walls in the zealots at the ramp with eggs and then blocks their exit with hydras. THEN he individualy morphs each hydra into lurker just before they get killed by the zealots, essentually zeroing their effective dps. That was cinematic af. I would pay to see that scene in theatres. Great play by Effort.
The nail in the coffin was the zealot push back to the previously destroyed base. Effort's lurkers tried to squeeze through the dragoons, but the way they were laid out was like a mini tower defense and a well placed psi storm right in the middle of them softened up most of the lurkers completely.
The DT drop to his main was effective nontheless because he pulled drones, but lets be honest, I wanted to see blood just as much as Tastosis lol.
Its just crazy to see how effective Bisu utilizes his zealots so well. He always seems to rotate the most effective units for the situation to prevent unneccesary losses, but everywhere at the same time. Its just insane.
Heck, Bisu is so good that he could probably make Mass Scout the new meta LMAO.
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Looking at our next group of C, my hopes for protoss are great. We get a guaranteed toss to move forward with a high chance of 2 toss making it through. Mong is pretty damn good, but I have trouble imagining how he is going to fare against Best and Jaehoon.
You really can't count anybody out in these next groups tho! Let group D whittle down the number of Toss and Zerg for the next round and were going to have some nice looking, evenly racial brackets for R8. Best case scenario, we have 3 extremely powerful Brotoss going into the next round.
If you made it through one of my patented walls of text, thanks. I'm just really excited to get into broodwar once again.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rOeDz6v.jpg)
God vs humans.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kx69huu.jpg)
