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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On January 24 2016 12:51 TheNewEra wrote:Sooo I'm hooked. Was there an English cast by Amazingxkdc and Bisudagger for all stages of the tournament? Want to watch some games preferably in a language I'm not too bad at but not sure were to look without getting spoilered 
yup, all the vods can be found http://afreeca.tv/nsl1
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Germany3128 Posts
On January 24 2016 12:52 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 12:51 TheNewEra wrote:Sooo I'm hooked. Was there an English cast by Amazingxkdc and Bisudagger for all stages of the tournament? Want to watch some games preferably in a language I'm not too bad at but not sure were to look without getting spoilered yup, all the vods can be found http://afreeca.tv/nsl1
Thanks 
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On January 23 2016 17:07 cha0 wrote:
Wow the trash talk is real!
Can anyone translate the trash-talk?
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On January 24 2016 10:41 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 10:15 L_Master wrote:
Age itself has no bearing on this at all. Bisu is 26. If he was 33 or 37 or something you would have a point, but if you look at any other sport that depends on explosive speed, power, and neuromuscular connections (i.e. sprinting) athletes peak in their late 20s, with the occasional outlier in the very early 30s.
If Bisu's multitasking is no longer up to par, it's just a matter of differing levels of practice needed to sustain that level of mechanics. and what makes you think age has no influence on "differing levels of practice needed to sustain that level of mechanics."? hes a 26 year old now, the face of Kongdoo with added life and social responsibilities, long gone are the days when one is a random 16-18 year old that can just stay at home/teamhouse and play BW all day long.
Okay...didn't think I had to spell it out that much, naturally I mean physical decline due to aging, not distraction or time commitment decline (which I certainly believe could be factors).
On January 24 2016 10:41 Probemicro wrote:
besides what applies for physical athletes may not completely apply for progamers, athletes don't use their hands and eyes to run and progamers don't use their legs to play, athletes have much higher stamina requirements than progamers etc. the peak for hand dexterity/ handeye coordination may come pretty early for what its worth.
I wouldn't discount this.
That said, there also isn't a compelling reason to suspect it either. I can't think of any logical reasons why neural signaling and efficiency of communication would start an earlier age related decline than pathways to the legs.
There is some evidence to suggest that neuro-cognitive decline may begin as early as ones mid 20s, but Bisu at 26 probably isn't suffering too hard from that just yet.
On January 24 2016 10:41 Probemicro wrote:
Bisu is the one that puts in the most amount of practice time in the teamhouse, practicing till the wee hours of early morning when almost all of his teammates have gone to bed. So it can be said that Bisu's success is probably more reliant on practice amount than others. (especially considering his style, its not surprising)
I think this is highly probable. Significantly more so than that Bisu is already suffering from noticeable age related cognitive or neuromuscular decline.
On January 24 2016 10:41 Probemicro wrote:
bisu's antics on stream does not help matters either. Many viewers in both korea and china have already noticed how he had to lower his standards when playing stream matches with others that does not involve big names like effort, hero etc, an act to create "exciting" matches to solicit more balloons. Not to mention that incident where bisu was banned from fish for a short period for trying to lower his rank because no one wants to play with him (this was earlier and what probably influenced him to do the above). The lack of seriousness has probably cause him to lose respect among his usual fans and probably contributed to his long term decline as a competitive player. May not matter much when playing against other players that he will always claim to be superior to, but will certainly affect matches where the odds are more even and the stakes are higher.
Absolutely agreed. Good analysis there in my book.
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On January 24 2016 10:15 L_Master wrote:
No.
Age itself has no bearing on this at all. Bisu is 26. If he was 33 or 37 or something you would have a point, but if you look at any other sport that depends on explosive speed, power, and neuromuscular connections (i.e. sprinting) athletes peak in their late 20s, with the occasional outlier in the very early 30s.
If Bisu's multitasking is no longer up to par, it's just a matter of differing levels of practice needed to sustain that level of mechanics.
You cant apply facts from other sports when the disciplines are nowhere near similar.
26 is not the age of dominant players in kespa if you have followed the scene in its last years that should be pretty clear to you. The peak of the performance of the players is like 17-22/23. Flash said it his last interview that his performance was already in decline during 2011. Bisu said numerous times that he is feeling hard to compete anymore on the scene. Even before sc2 switch he stated that he cant keep up practicing all night as before, because he feels tired, wich means the age is defeinitelly a factor here.
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does anyone know what kind of hours bisu was practicing off stream versus on stream?
you can't really consider streaming as legitimate practice because you aren't going to be playing the same builds/maps etc otherwise you'll be giving away you and your practice partners' builds away -- kespa banned player streaming because of this iirc.
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On January 24 2016 21:45 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 10:15 L_Master wrote:
No.
Age itself has no bearing on this at all. Bisu is 26. If he was 33 or 37 or something you would have a point, but if you look at any other sport that depends on explosive speed, power, and neuromuscular connections (i.e. sprinting) athletes peak in their late 20s, with the occasional outlier in the very early 30s.
If Bisu's multitasking is no longer up to par, it's just a matter of differing levels of practice needed to sustain that level of mechanics. You cant apply facts from other sports when the disciplines are nowhere near similar. 26 is not the age of dominant players in kespa if you have followed the scene in its last years that should be pretty clear to you. The peak of the performance of the players is like 17-22/23. Flash said it his last interview that his performance was already in decline during 2011. Bisu said numerous times that he is feeling hard to compete anymore on the scene. Even before sc2 switch he stated that he cant keep up practicing all night as before, because he feels tired, wich means the age is defeinitelly a factor here.
None of that inherently has anything to do with being older, and especially cannot be tied to the physical aspects of aging, which is my main argument. There isn't much reason to suspect that the physical aspects of aging do anything to reduce a players performance in their early 20s.
So why do we see players with peaks in their early 20s? Many possibility can be considered, such that an intense regimen just takes a toll mentally and many start to burn out by that age. Or that after living that lifestyle for a while players begin to become interested in other things, and their focus on BW going from 100% to 95%. Or that they get confident and feel they are the best and don't have to practice as hard. Or that once you get to be really good more is asked from you as a team leader and prominent player, which takes away from your own practice time. Or you put too much pressure on yourself to perform now that it's expected of you. NONE of these have anything to do with a players physical age. How long they have been playing and how good they are? Yes.
Now, we can't verify any of those, but they are all legitimate possible contributing factors not related to a players age. Remember that correlation does NOT imply causation, in other words that players seem to peak in their early 20s does not guarantee that the reason they do so is because after that is over the hill. To just come out and say "Bisu is struggling because he is old" just isn't something grounded in evidence.
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I love seeing hydras get stormed on. First 2 games were pretty sloppy but the last 2 were enjoyable. wp effOrt
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The games were honestly as good as they could have been. Bisu's play has been incredibly onedimentional ever since he came back to BW.
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Just got around to watching the vods - amazing games.
Really happy for EffOrt. I'm still a little salty about how it all went down with CJ Entus.
So great to have afreeca providing vods for free.
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Yo I haven't been keeping in touch with BW in awhile, can someone explain why  Bisu went gate-first in so many of teh matches? Is this a new meta? Or was Bisu just trying to throw  EffOrt off
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On January 26 2016 05:22 whatusername wrote:Yo I haven't been keeping in touch with BW in awhile, can someone explain why Bisu went gate-first in so many of teh matches? Is this a new meta? Or was Bisu just trying to throw EffOrt off
Gate first is a valid opening for protoss.
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I agree with TT1 that Bisu seemed way too sloppy for his level. Pretty poor zealot control for a player of his caliber. Maybe he was nervous or something, but he lost countless amounts of zealots for seemingly little to no value throughout the whole series, not just game 1 but 2, even 3 and surely game 4.
Also being scouted from the first time every game is kind of hard to adapt against psychologically imo.
EffOrt played really well but i really wish i saw him winning against a Bisu that is as sharp as many expected him to be.
Maybe i missed but i didnt see any eco harrass from Bisu in Game 4. Also preparing for a huge drop in main is a somewhat trivial defence to do late game on this map. It was 4 base vs 4 base for so much time that it felt rather strange to have that outcome. Like, i can win bisu if i camp 4base vs 4base vs him and trade armies well and dont leave him take 5th on match point? Not sure how right that sounds
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Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW.
Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. He lost his first Zealot there too, but how that game developed afterward... It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see.
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On January 26 2016 13:06 Jealous wrote:
Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW. Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see.
If I were to be honest, Bisu was too busy dicking around on Afreeca while Effort just out prepared him much like how hero out prepared Bisu in the last SSL.
Hoping for Mind to win a BW SL though, that man deserves it more than anyone else but his nerve always got in his way.
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On January 26 2016 13:35 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 13:06 Jealous wrote:
Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW. Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see. If I were to be honest, Bisu was too busy dicking around on Afreeca while Effort just out prepared him much like how hero out prepared Bisu in the last SSL. Hoping for Mind to win a BW SL though, that man deserves it more than anyone else but his nerve always got in his way.
Mind won the previous Kongdoo SSL
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On January 26 2016 13:35 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 13:06 Jealous wrote:
Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW. Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see. If I were to be honest, Bisu was too busy dicking around on Afreeca while Effort just out prepared him much like how hero out prepared Bisu in the last SSL. Hoping for Mind to win a BW SL though, that man deserves it more than anyone else but his nerve always got in his way.
Yea, I saw some of that -_-; I watched some Effort VODs in preparation, and he looked crisp as hell, scary to be honest. Then I went to watch some VODs of my boy, and I see him losing to nonamezerg#457 on Fish while turning on his webcam over Brood War and saying "POPOPOPOPO!" and putting his hands up to his face every time he got a balloon. Losing Zealots all the while.
Little did he know how much more money he would have made if he just trained hard and won the Finals instead of giving fan service. Then again, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Maybe it was a strategic fiscal decision.
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Don't forget Bisu has already won SSL9 AND made it to 2 consecutive major offline finals, a consistency that no one else can boast of during this post Kespa era.
and he would most likely have gotten a similar top place if he was allowed to play in SSL10.
now compare this with sSak (SSL10 winner), Mind (KSL winner), hero (SSL11 winner), all of whom have slumped in various tourneys after their respective win.
only thing similar to Bisu's feat was Killer's back to back SSL wins a few years ago (and the competition was weaker then)
Hence its not like he has completely flop around in offline tourneys (hi sea!)
So i highly doubt this loss will mean much to Bisu, he knows that his innate BW ability is still a cut above most of his peers, as long as he performs decently and try to maintain some semblance of his old level, he can still achieve a lot and his fans will always be there to support him (with balloons).
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United States2948 Posts
On January 26 2016 05:22 whatusername wrote:Yo I haven't been keeping in touch with BW in awhile, can someone explain why Bisu went gate-first in so many of teh matches? Is this a new meta? Or was Bisu just trying to throw EffOrt off
I really thought that was odd, too.
Bisu rarely 1 gates on his stream, opting for his patented FE opening most of the time, to great success. I wonder if he thought that earlier zealot aggression would force EffOrt to sacrifice some of his early economy? -- but in fact, EffOrt fully expected early aggression/2 gate cheese as he went spawning pool relatively early (before second hatch, at least), in all the games...
I hope Bisu didn't throw _himself_ off with the altered build order...
Regardless, as Probe mentioned, Bisu has been remarkably consistent in the big offline leagues. It's a great achievement to make it to so many late stages, even if he was outclassed by a thoroughly prepared EffOrt this time around
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On January 25 2016 03:57 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 21:45 _Animus_ wrote:On January 24 2016 10:15 L_Master wrote:
No.
Age itself has no bearing on this at all. Bisu is 26. If he was 33 or 37 or something you would have a point, but if you look at any other sport that depends on explosive speed, power, and neuromuscular connections (i.e. sprinting) athletes peak in their late 20s, with the occasional outlier in the very early 30s.
If Bisu's multitasking is no longer up to par, it's just a matter of differing levels of practice needed to sustain that level of mechanics. You cant apply facts from other sports when the disciplines are nowhere near similar. 26 is not the age of dominant players in kespa if you have followed the scene in its last years that should be pretty clear to you. The peak of the performance of the players is like 17-22/23. Flash said it his last interview that his performance was already in decline during 2011. Bisu said numerous times that he is feeling hard to compete anymore on the scene. Even before sc2 switch he stated that he cant keep up practicing all night as before, because he feels tired, wich means the age is defeinitelly a factor here. None of that inherently has anything to do with being older, and especially cannot be tied to the physical aspects of aging, which is my main argument. There isn't much reason to suspect that the physical aspects of aging do anything to reduce a players performance in their early 20s. So why do we see players with peaks in their early 20s? Many possibility can be considered, such that an intense regimen just takes a toll mentally and many start to burn out by that age. Or that after living that lifestyle for a while players begin to become interested in other things, and their focus on BW going from 100% to 95%. Or that they get confident and feel they are the best and don't have to practice as hard. Or that once you get to be really good more is asked from you as a team leader and prominent player, which takes away from your own practice time. Or you put too much pressure on yourself to perform now that it's expected of you. NONE of these have anything to do with a players physical age. How long they have been playing and how good they are? Yes. Now, we can't verify any of those, but they are all legitimate possible contributing factors not related to a players age. Remember that correlation does NOT imply causation, in other words that players seem to peak in their early 20s does not guarantee that the reason they do so is because after that is over the hill. To just come out and say "Bisu is struggling because he is old" just isn't something grounded in evidence.
Ive never said "Bisu is old", its just that at this age your mind is not as sharp and you start to lose stamina which also makes stress situations harder to handle(you can see that in his performance). As i pointed out 5 years ago he himself said he tries but cant keep up the practice as when he was younger, because he gets tired and thats a fact. All of your suggestions, asumptions and physical sport relations can be anything but grounded evidence to be so sure of the opposite. Im not saying age its the only factor, but i think its a major one.
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EPT
