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On January 26 2016 13:06 Jealous wrote:
Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW.
Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. He lost his first Zealot there too, but how that game developed afterward... It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see.
he played like someone who didnt practice, his mechanics were just off. his play looks off even in his recent youtube vods (its easy to tell just by watching his mouse movement/fluidity).
he probably lacks the motivation to practice, it happens as you get older (thats the main reason why players regress). i highly doubt that he plays any games off stream(btw does Bisu stream every day? if so how many hours does he stream for on average?). he probably just streams, makes his money and goes on with his day.
On January 26 2016 19:22 prech wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 05:22 whatusername wrote:Yo I haven't been keeping in touch with BW in awhile, can someone explain why  Bisu went gate-first in so many of teh matches? Is this a new meta? Or was Bisu just trying to throw  EffOrt off I really thought that was odd, too. Bisu rarely 1 gates on his stream, opting for his patented FE opening most of the time, to great success. I wonder if he thought that earlier zealot aggression would force EffOrt to sacrifice some of his early economy? -- but in fact, EffOrt fully expected early aggression/2 gate cheese as he went spawning pool relatively early (before second hatch, at least), in all the games... I hope Bisu didn't throw _himself_ off with the altered build order... Regardless, as Probe mentioned, Bisu has been remarkably consistent in the big offline leagues. It's a great achievement to make it to so many late stages, even if he was outclassed by a thoroughly prepared EffOrt this time around
He recently started opening 1G expo (on FS) which is actually really smart, but you only do that when you spawn @ 7 or 1 oclock (cus its easy to wall on those bases, only takes a gate and a forge). By going 1G you also force zerg to make lings and its easy to get cost efficient trades by microing your zeals between min patches (it messes up their build/timings aswell).
Depending on how the early game plays out you can also skip your forge and tech to cyber core right away, that way your sairs are out way before z's spire is done and you can get alot of free ovie kills.
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On January 26 2016 13:06 Jealous wrote:
Is it possible that he is so used to stomping out lower-tiered players on Fish that he got an inflated ego, overestimated his Zealot control, and underestimated how quickly Effort would punish any failed aggression?
It seemed like he was sending Zealots out with reckless abandon, in sharp contrast to his 3rd bust with +1 speedlots build that he made almost standard towards the end of KeSPA BW.
Look back to his game against Jaedong on Judgement Day. He lost his first Zealot there too, but how that game developed afterward... It's hard to imagine that this is the same player, with the same game sense and knowledge.
The first game really demonstrated the failings of this approach, for me. Effort had 6? 7? Hatcheries on 3 bases. I'm no pro but my assumption is that he was able to pull this off because he spent a total of 0 drones on Sunk or Spore Colonies. His strong Hydralisk response to Bisu losing those first few Zealots demonstrated the potential disaster that awaits any Protoss who is too loose with his Zealots. Bisu barely held but was almost irreparably behind.
And yet, he changed almost nothing about his Zealot play in the next 3 games. It was painful to see.
Bisu would always go for the disrespectful opening even back in the day vs players he was confident against. In the last couple years Zergs have been going for hydra-based play in 90% of PvZs that I've seen, and Zealots are the best opening vs those since cannons and goons get shit on.
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Was a good series. I was nervous at first but I'm glad that we got some decent macro games.
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Were there any mention of Effort's winner's interview and how he thanks his practice partners (YongTae, SeungHyun, YeongHwa)? What I found interesting is JeongWoo thanking IlJang afterwards. Effort says he saw and learned from how hero's play and it helped him prepare for the finals. You could definitely see it in his play this finals. He went to the hydra build in all games except game 2 which ended in less than 10 minutes.
I feel like the hero's style of play will become more common going forward against Toss for the time being.
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On January 26 2016 08:21 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 05:22 whatusername wrote:Yo I haven't been keeping in touch with BW in awhile, can someone explain why Bisu went gate-first in so many of teh matches? Is this a new meta? Or was Bisu just trying to throw EffOrt off Gate first is a valid opening for protoss.
Would anyone mind going more in-depth in this? I was also pretty surprised to see only one FFE the entire series. Would anyone mind explaining the rise in gate first fast expand openings? (Or pointing to a thread / resource on the topic)
Edit -- Nevermind, just saw TT1's post
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United States2948 Posts
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Japan11821 Posts
I feel like Hero has influenced ZvP a great deal. I recall you said EffOrt taking a lot of builds from Hero's playbook in Bisu vs EffOrt fish matches. Even ZerO preferred to take the close third in the league instead of the far one.
Anyone who has watched Bisu for a long time can tell that he was sloppy in many control aspects during the finals series.
Also Bisu has been going gate-first in many post-KeSPA games for quite some time now, especially against Larva.
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On January 27 2016 05:59 prech wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:03 9MoonRyong wrote:
Were there any mention of Effort's winner's interview and how he thanks his practice partners (YongTae, SeungHyun, YeongHwa)? What I found interesting is JeongWoo thanking IlJang afterwards. Effort says he saw and learned from how hero's play and it helped him prepare for the finals. You could definitely see it in his play this finals. He went to the hydra build in all games except game 2 which ended in less than 10 minutes.
I feel like the hero's style of play will become more common going forward against Toss for the time being. Yea, check out Probemicro's translation of  EffOrt's interview He acknowledges free, GuemChi, and Movie. No mention of hero, but you can read earlier in this thread, we talked about how EffOrt's gone with conservative nearby thirds with early hydra dens rather than cross-map during ZvPs. Definitely very hero-esque.
Effort definitely thanks Hero right after he mentions his practice partners. I'm Korean living in the states. That's why I know players better by their names than their handle.
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On February 02 2016 17:56 9MoonRyong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 05:59 prech wrote:On January 27 2016 02:03 9MoonRyong wrote:
Were there any mention of Effort's winner's interview and how he thanks his practice partners (YongTae, SeungHyun, YeongHwa)? What I found interesting is JeongWoo thanking IlJang afterwards. Effort says he saw and learned from how hero's play and it helped him prepare for the finals. You could definitely see it in his play this finals. He went to the hydra build in all games except game 2 which ended in less than 10 minutes.
I feel like the hero's style of play will become more common going forward against Toss for the time being. Yea, check out Probemicro's translation of EffOrt's interview He acknowledges free, GuemChi, and Movie. No mention of hero, but you can read earlier in this thread, we talked about how EffOrt's gone with conservative nearby thirds with early hydra dens rather than cross-map during ZvPs. Definitely very hero-esque. Effort definitely thanks Hero right after he mentions his practice partners. I'm Korean living in the states. That's why I know players better by their names than their handle.
fomos interview
see for yourself, there is no mention of II Jang here (which the translation is based off). perhaps you were referring to a different interview article?
in any case the avid bw follower will know that effort has studied hero's style of play in preparation for the finals, he even personally mentioned it on his stream after the bisu-terror eyebrow series. (also, effort literally rolled his eyes when viewers suggested movie and britney as practice partners lol. but looks like movie is a good help in the end.)
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Effort mentions this during the interview right after he wins the game before the trophy presentation. I'm not referring to fomos interview.
There is a difference between speculating and knowing. Effort said it himself.
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Great result from EffOrt, I'm glad he won. My only regret is that I watched tastosis cast, I thought bisud/axkcd wouldn't cast the finals but apparently they did, are there any vods of them around ?
Also, what is the company that EffOrt is allowed to get supplied from for a lifetime ? It's mentionned in Sojung's translation of the post-game interview (when he gets the cash prize). Is that Vent ? What do they supply ?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51621 Posts
On February 07 2016 23:01 wl4d wrote:
Great result from EffOrt, I'm glad he won. My only regret is that I watched tastosis cast, I thought bisud/axkcd wouldn't cast the finals but apparently they did, are there any vods of them around ?
Also, what is the company that EffOrt is allowed to get supplied from for a lifetime ? It's mentionned in Sojung's translation of the post-game interview (when he gets the cash prize). Is that Vent ? What do they supply ?
http://afreeca.tv/36846806/v/21550
the lifetime supply is from the sponsor VANT 36.5 beauty products.
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United States10569 Posts
On January 27 2016 21:22 c3rberUs wrote:
I feel like Hero has influenced ZvP a great deal. I recall you said EffOrt taking a lot of builds from Hero's playbook in Bisu vs EffOrt fish matches. Even ZerO preferred to take the close third in the league instead of the far one.
Anyone who has watched Bisu for a long time can tell that he was sloppy in many control aspects during the finals series.
Also Bisu has been going gate-first in many post-KeSPA games for quite some time now, especially against Larva.
hero IS a serious ZvP sniper and still has one of the best ZvPs. (Though he seems to lose to GuemChi =.=) I think that EffOrt did analyze hero's playstyle, and since it had so much success against Bisu in the SSL11 finals (3-0 ez), then he's going to prepare with those style of builds. I don't think Bisu was ready for it, and prepared for a more EffOrt style of play.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
On February 08 2016 06:29 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 21:22 c3rberUs wrote:
I feel like Hero has influenced ZvP a great deal. I recall you said EffOrt taking a lot of builds from Hero's playbook in Bisu vs EffOrt fish matches. Even ZerO preferred to take the close third in the league instead of the far one.
Anyone who has watched Bisu for a long time can tell that he was sloppy in many control aspects during the finals series.
Also Bisu has been going gate-first in many post-KeSPA games for quite some time now, especially against Larva. hero IS a serious ZvP sniper and still has one of the best ZvPs. (Though he seems to lose to GuemChi =.=) I think that EffOrt did analyze hero's playstyle, and since it had so much success against Bisu in the SSL11 finals (3-0 ez), then he's going to prepare with those style of builds. I don't think Bisu was ready for it, and prepared for a more EffOrt style of play.
Let's be real. A lifetime of beauty products is invaluable to effort. Bisu let him have this one.
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hello 2010 my old friend
edit: fuck me misspost on wrong thread - i'm going to blame my cold and diziness.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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EPT
