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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On January 07 2016 20:55 BLinD-RawR wrote: that matchpoint game would have gone so much better for free had he not thrown his army into ZerO after taking his high ground area. this a lot. Free loves to overextend with his pushes and loves to lose his army every time. It's really his Achilles heel | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11928 Posts
On January 07 2016 20:51 Xeln4g4 wrote: can't believe they haven't fixed this mu in 12 years ... 3 gas bases vs 2, it was over from the very beginning. umm, 2 gas p vs 2 gas z favors p... | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11928 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51707 Posts
On January 07 2016 20:57 c3rberUs wrote: Free may have miscalculated the push up ZerO's platform. imo he should have backed off earlier he shouldn't have even attacked up there is what I'm saying, there was no way he could have taken on that army and the immediate remacro from ZerO. Should have stayed back and secured his 4th base. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51707 Posts
On January 08 2016 08:37 LemOn wrote: vods somewhere? missed it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20?page=48#954 | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Free has serious trouble with his army controll when he gather a big force, as if he dont know what to do with it, he keeps wandering around the most open spaces on the map letting the zerg to surround him everytime and start to put tought into his army tactics just as his forces are too small, so that way he cant achieve anything when it comes to the late game. That play makes me miss the days of the almighty Jangbi, with his furious forces (refering to jangbi vs zero ro4 tving osl) | ||
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Miragee
8716 Posts
And iirc Jangbi got raped by Zero pretty hard and his win in the end felt rather undeserved. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On January 08 2016 23:32 Miragee wrote: You talk like Bo3 somehow would give us better matches... And iirc Jangbi got raped by Zero pretty hard and his win in the end felt rather undeserved. Ofcourse bo3 will give us better matches. Actually Zero got raped by Jangbi with his sick comeback, leading to one of the most memorable experiences in BW history. Undeserved? Just look at that crowd + Show Spoiler + Even the people on Zero's side of the hall shouted Jangbi's name that day. | ||
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Miragee
8716 Posts
On January 09 2016 20:20 _Animus_ wrote: Ofcourse bo3 will give us better matches. And why do you think that is? As for Jangbi vs Zero, just rewatched game 4 (2:1 for zero before that game) and I remembered correctly: Zero raped Jangbi pretty hard that game who was on 1 base vs 2,5 bases for quite a while with few probes and only won in a ridiculous last ditch attempt allin. Didn't feel good back then and doesn't feel today. Had the flair of SC2 protoss. | ||
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feckless
1099 Posts
On January 09 2016 21:30 Miragee wrote: As for Jangbi vs Zero, just rewatched game 4 (2:1 for zero before that game) and I remembered correctly: Zero raped Jangbi pretty hard that game who was on 1 base vs 2,5 bases for quite a while with few probes and only won in a ridiculous last ditch attempt allin. Didn't feel good back then and doesn't feel today. Had the flair of SC2 protoss. I'm not sure what the complaint is about. Sure, it sucks that ZerO lost, but he didn't lose impossibly. Also, JangBi had no other option but the "ridiculous last ditch attempt allin". When else would you expect that kind of desperation from a player? Even the commentators were yelling HAN-BANG as the only option left. If he had somehow won in some other fashion, would it have been more acceptable to you? If had decided to rebuild his natural and defend, instead, and then went on to win, would you feel better about it? What's the difference? Boxer bunker-rushed YellOw three times in a row at 2004 EVER. Are those wins somehow less worthy because of that? I also went back and rewatched it, and it's not like JangBi pulled a win straight out of his ass. It wasn't some impossible thing to win, because it clearly happened. I also think that "raped pretty hard" is a debatable statement. It's not like ZerO had a huge economic advantage and a large number of hatcheries and was so unfathomably ahead. ZerO all-in'ed, himself, by going pretty much 3 hatch hydra (I guess he felt he wanted to try to end the series right there, being up 2-1). He lost a lot of units to various maneuvers (that faking maneuver was just great though) and storms and such. ZerO had stopped making drones and was producing hydralisks out of three hatcheries for most of the game. JangBi still had his main base with a decent number of probes, so it's not like ZerO had some unreachable economic advantage. ZerO's highest level of tech was lurkers and drops. He was just starting a spire when JangBi dropped a few zealots off in his base. JangBi, having just lost most of his probes to a lurker drop (this was when fate was sealed), was left with no other option but to all-in. At the end it was pretty much a pure hydralisk force (with a few lurkers) against a pretty sizable zealot/dragoon/archon/templar combo. JangBi had a decent number of templars. ZerO's control was sloppy. ZerO's forces melted under the storms. JangBi mopped up. Honestly, it looked like ZerO had it. Looked like. And honestly, it was a nice comeback, if you'd like to call it that. But it's not like the impossible happened. edit: You know, now that I think about it, you could very well argue that ZerO completely fucked up. I'm not even talking about the build order/strategy he chose or the fact that he had pretty much pure hydra against a well-rounded toss combo. He knew JangBi's forces were coming. His overlords were watching the toss army move out. He had no lurkers, so he hastily started morphing three of them. No sim-city. He banked on a 3-hatch hydra all-in. And then it's like he basically just parked his forces on the ridge and hoped for the best. No attempt at flanking. No attempt at delaying. Not only that, his control was questionable (as stated before). His hydras were either left to melt under storms or they ran further in towards the Protoss army, only to be slaughtered. Honestly, watching it again, I do feel bad, too. I can now sort of see why ZerO has his "choker" status. | ||
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Miragee
8716 Posts
About said game: The comeback wouldn't have been possible if zero didn't choke so hard. Jangbi's ridiculous push only went through because zero made a lot of major blunders (and because of good storms, I'll admit that). Wins where one side did major mistakes that lost him the game leave a sour taste compared to games where both sides play consistently well. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On January 10 2016 00:44 Miragee wrote: Sorry, you got me wrong, probably because I worded myself badly. My complain was that Animus hailed Jangbi as some kind of god and took this series as example. However, I think it's unfair to bash free and praise Jangbi for this series at the same time because Jangbi didn't play particularly impressive. About said game: The comeback wouldn't have been possible if zero didn't choke so hard. Jangbi's ridiculous push only went through because zero made a lot of major blunders (and because of good storms, I'll admit that). Wins where one side did major mistakes that lost him the game leave a sour taste compared to games where both sides play consistently well. You ask why i think bo3 will be better than bo5. If you were in their place, will you be able to prepare for 3 maps better, or these 3 + 2 in the same ammount of time? That should give you the answer. I dont bash Free, maybe it seems to be too harsh but its because i didnt liked his play. He is great player in PvT(probably his strongest m/u) the games against Ssak and Sea especially the ones on Arcadia were amazing to watch, but these pvz games were not good. His army usage was chaotic most of the time. First game when he attempted bust on the third he was in great position, he couldve eradicated everything there if he kept his forces united but instead he spread them on different places and thus he easily lost his army while killing few drones and 2 hatch. Crucialy he left a hatchery for Zero to start mining right away at that 3rd, leaving zero in lead by having no army, ground or air. About Zero vs Jangbi, its not jangbi's fault zero is not solid enough to hold his wining position. Zero broke his own contain using lurkers from it to drop jangbi's mineral line. I dont think Zero choked so much at this moment, because the pressure was on jangbi, zero was wining the game already + the whole semifinals and probably wanted to end it sooner. Exactly that comeback made the game legendary, because nobody was expecting Jangbi to be a threat anymore. After that he became the only protoss to win 2 OSL's in a row and we couldnt see if he can make more because that was the last BW OSL. Feeling so sore about this series you must be a Zero fan. Because my memory is about the crowd was going crazy, i myself too after being dissapointed jangbi couldnt make it. Then Kim carry shed tears of joy and sadness, it was a holy moment. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
anyway Zero seem to have shed his choker status with some top finishes in the recent Spotimes leagues, and thoroughly outclassing Free here (who cares what BoX it is Zero has shown to be much better than Free here, boX would not have mattered) will be interesting if he can upset Muh WIndows XP and pose a real challenge to Bisu in the finals. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On January 07 2016 20:51 Xeln4g4 wrote: can't believe they haven't fixed this mu in 12 years ... 3 gas bases vs 2, it was over from the very beginning. User was warned for this post Scrub | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On January 10 2016 10:27 Probemicro wrote: the BW Kespa scene would have looked much different anyway if players are not starting to transition and practice sc2. Thats why I don't really acknowledge Jangbi god status, who knows how many players have their attentions shifted because of sc2 Sc2 transition includes all the players, Jangbi also became sc2 player. During 2011-2012 he beat the best players in two osl's and thats something. On January 10 2016 10:27 Probemicro wrote:the games by 2012 have started to drop in quality. I remember cringing at JD's poor play then (who had been truly godlike back in 2009) I dont agree about game quallity, i found it refining constantly untill the hybrid proleague, thats when the players were clearly practicing mostly sc2. And JD was in a big slump since OZ disbanded, sc2 had nothing to do with it. On January 10 2016 10:27 Probemicro wrote:anyway Zero seem to have shed his choker status with some top finishes in the recent Spotimes leagues, and thoroughly outclassing Free here I agree here, Zero was clearly the better player although he had many weak spots. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
If i recall back then the BW players are already known to be practicing sc2 since mid/late 2011, with many rumours/speculations about strong unknowns with insane APM filling the GM places in sc2 korean server. it cannot be denied sc2 has significant negative influence on the overall quality of BW games. sc2 is a different game and having time/preparation spent on both will affect the calibre of BW. If there is no sc2 100% assured that the OSLs/Proleagues will have gone on differently. Some of the upcomers and B teamers (who are being told to focus 90% on sc2) may have improved drastically in BW and in short time start challenging the elite. these are the current group of streamers we see today like Mong, sSak, Larva, Sharp etc. that have performed well in the amateur scene with no sc2 distraction JD might have recovered from his slump much earlier etc. Many things will be different. I have respect for jangbi's achievements in the last days of BW but generally established elites like him have definitely put in more focus on BW compared to his lesser peers. A few of the BW elites may have started to prefer and focus on sc2 irregardless of their current BW ability. The scene is definitely not as competitive as it was back in 2010 and earlier. | ||
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Miragee
8716 Posts
On January 10 2016 21:00 Probemicro wrote: If there is no sc2 100% assured that the OSLs/Proleagues will have gone on differently. Some of the upcomers and B teamers (who are being told to focus 90% on sc2) may have improved drastically in BW and in short time start challenging the elite. these are the current group of streamers we see today like Mong, sSak, Larva, Sharp etc. that have performed well in the amateur scene with no sc2 distraction JD might have recovered from his slump much earlier etc. Many things will be different. Yeah, also imagine what players like wooki, sun, Bogus, Soulkey etc. would have achieved with 1-2 more years of full bw. | ||
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