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Croatia9535 Posts
On July 25 2015 21:02 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
well here you go then: the chinese pro scene where Scan + Fengzi won the finals vs none other than Savior + 334. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/449968-chinese-2v2-tournamentAnd his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
Huh?
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G5, thank you.
On July 25 2015 07:32 2Pacalypse- wrote:
...I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run.
Would you please make a list with actual nicknames of the so called "few of the players that fear their shot at the money is being oppressed" with evidence here?
Also I am not sure what 'long run' you are talking about. My 13 years of thorough BW experience gives me the confidence to say that in the last 2-3 years till now there is no significant amount of new faces in BW in the foreign and korean bw scene if there are any new faces at all. In the long run, you have old faces showing up again at seemingly random times and for random amounts of time - no new faces, regardless whether Scan plays or not. "The minority" of players are ALL the players you got nowadays. It's the same old players that get older and have various and more different things to do, than BW. If by "increase the activty" you mean "turn TeamLiquid BW events into D+ tournaments" then I see the point.
On July 25 2015 07:32 2Pacalypse- wrote:
I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama.
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We had a Hungarian player play in a foreign tournament (TLS1/2/3) thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months (and hey, we proved ourselves right!)
The first is not true. I believe (and remember) players like trutacz, eonzerg, bakuryu, me, sziky, draw, nemu, doty, skzlime and many others practiced relatively diligent for foreigners and we had a good attitude in the TLS tournaments. My 10years+ of competitve BW experience is behind my reasoning. My practice time with the players stated above and MANY more that actually played in TLS is behind my reasoning. What is behind your reasoning?
Also the second is not true again - players like draw, trutacz, me, eonzerg, doty, nemu and even the inactive G5 have good chances to win against sziky, if we only weren't that stressed out against him and played somewhat noticeably below our usual level in practice games. I am not saying we are better than him or have better tournament results. I am saying it's significantly easier to win against him - the foreigner, than to win against Scan - the actual korean.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote:
We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us
This is also doesn't seem true. How do you take community's feedback very seriously when you discuss something for months without actually asking for the community's feedback? Who are 'we' in 'We discussed'? Again list with actual nicknames please. Is everybody from that list reading each and every post thoroughly here? Because BisuDagger wasn't as diligent as I expected on reading carefully some of my posts.
Also, interestingly enough the problem was the players from TLS' attitude. What about organizers attitude? The TLS I ranked 2nd, I spent 70% of my practice time for the finals against Sziky to convince the Elite TL Organizers that Jade had a location that fucked the whole map for zvz up. We had a high chance of playing 2 games on Jade yet nothing was done because 'such imbalances in BW exist for long time' or smth, if I remember correctly. Same goes for Paranoid Android. Though I highly respect the map overall as I have tons of 2005-6 memories on it, the map is heavily imbalanced, especially in mirror MUs. Yet the response is 'we will look into that', check these stats. The map is 10 years old. 10 YEARS OLD. Haven't you already looked into it? Aren't you already familiar with it? How come the TL Organizers are not for years aware that this is a very prime example for an imbalanced map, perhaps one of the most sharly ones in the history of WCG BW? This is the biggest show of incompetence so far in the thread, yet TL organizers dare, to speak from the name of TeamLiquid, and insult seemingly all TLS1/2/3 players by saying they prepared for TLS as for a ladder match?
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Yes, Paranoid Android shouldn't be one of the maps. There are plenty of maps which are more balanced.
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On July 25 2015 22:25 trutaCz wrote:
Yes, Paranoid Android shouldn't be one of the maps. There are plenty of maps which are more balanced.
Don't worry, they will look into it. The map is 10 years old, yet seemingly they have no idea what's up with it.
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On July 25 2015 21:54 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 21:02 juvenal wrote:On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
well here you go then: the chinese pro scene where Scan + Fengzi won the finals vs none other than Savior + 334. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/449968-chinese-2v2-tournamentAnd his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese". Huh?
weren't you requesting information about Scan's participation in korean/chinese leagues? Or is it too old - a year ago? How about we start measuring Scan's contribution to the foreign scene from, say, a month ago? What's with arbitrary conditions?
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Croatia9535 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:45 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 21:54 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 21:02 juvenal wrote:On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
well here you go then: the chinese pro scene where Scan + Fengzi won the finals vs none other than Savior + 334. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/449968-chinese-2v2-tournamentAnd his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese". Huh? weren't you requesting information about Scan's participation in korean/chinese leagues? Or is it too old - a year ago? How about we start measuring Scan's contribution to the foreign scene from, say, a month ago? What's with arbitrary conditions?
I wasn't requesting that.
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What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years.
+ Show Spoiler +Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me ![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/4-users/solidniy)
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Parandoid is awessome map and should stay. More imba is to play vs Scan :D
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Croatia9535 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:25 trutaCz wrote:
Yes, Paranoid Android shouldn't be one of the maps. There are plenty of maps which are more balanced.
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
Also, A LOT of the maps that have been standard and played for years have the same problem. For example, by.hero claimed that top right in Fighting Spirit mines noticeably faster in ZvZ. There is the same problem in Python as well.
But anyways, I'll admit that the Paranoid Android was chosen for the nostalgic reasons primarily and as such, we'd be willing to replace it in further tournaments (not in today's one though because perhaps some of the players already practiced specific BOs on it).
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Croatia9535 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote:What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me
"If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision."
Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know.
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On July 25 2015 23:09 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works?
In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead.
In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge).
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On July 25 2015 23:11 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote:What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me " If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision." Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know.
now this is awesome. Every instance of 'korean' in your rules is accompanied by 'or chinese' and now suddenly it doesn't work, okay. Sziky can hardly participate anywhere, even TSL, with his english hence the level of involvement is vastly different. Eon noshowed as far as I know but the previous statement also applies to him somewhat. Truta is the closest one to Scan in that regard, even being his minus) fellow, but there's an abyss of a difference between them in other aspects.
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How can you guys complain SO SO SO MUCH ???? Just stop with it and be thankful to sponsors and organizers.
Scan is allowed to play and somehow you have to live with it.
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Croatia9535 Posts
On July 25 2015 23:29 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 23:09 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on. This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works? In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead. In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge).
Fair enough. Are you willing to help us test this?
On July 25 2015 23:30 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 23:11 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote:What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me " If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision." Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know. now this is awesome. Every instance of 'korean' in your rules is accompanied by 'or chinese' and now suddenly it doesn't work, okay. Sziky can hardly participate anywhere, even TSL, with his english hence the level of involvement is vastly different. Eon noshowed as far as I know but the previous statement also applies to him somewhat. Truta is the closest one to Scan in that regard, even being his minus) fellow, but there's an abyss of a difference between them in other aspects.
What? I don't think I ever mentioned words 'chinese' and 'professional' next to each other. I don't think professional Chinese scene is even a thing.
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On July 25 2015 23:40 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 23:29 LRM)TechnicS wrote:On July 25 2015 23:09 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on. This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works? In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead. In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge). Fair enough. Are you willing to help us test this?
Not anymore. I spent hours of mine, Freaklingzerg's, bakuryu's and implicitly eonzerg's time (he practiced with Bakuryu I believe to notice the Jade issue) to get only stubborn responses for actual contributions of the foreign bw scene. How do you imagine spending 70% of my practice time, while insulting me and all other TLS1/2/3 players, that we had weak attitude and prepared like for a ladder match AND on top of that I faced endless stubborn resistance on the issue, minutes before the TLS 2 finals, while being more than willing to help to test something now?
Does that answer look like helping foreign bw community to you?
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On July 25 2015 23:40 2Pacalypse- wrote:
What? I don't think I ever mentioned words 'chinese' and 'professional' next to each other. I don't think professional Chinese scene is even a thing.
true but you get what I mean don't you? You prohibit chinese players (as if they ever cared) from participating, but allow a korean guy (who's supposedly almost like a foreigner) that plays in chinese leagues. Why ban chinese at all then? Playing in COSL is literally the quality check for them, only the best do, but somehow for Scan it doesn't matter.
Yeah I realize I'm being real obnoxious and picky here and I respect the organizers personally, especially BisuDagger and 2Pac for your immense contributions to the foreign BW. But! The issue seems very principal (possibly the last big foreign tournament and foreigners are about to get rekt by a korean) and it feels like you just reinvent the rules each time to legalize Scan.
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Also, I thought that when TL organizers want us foreigners to prepare as hard as we can to beat koreans, they must place actual efforts too? King Sziky is getting smashed by Scan, yet you demand hours of practice and dedication for about a year perhaps from many players, yet all you guys do is stone-age map check?
Also, do you plan on answering the questions from my biggest post on top of Page 21? They are the many and important questions that I am interested in being answered and they are not even being addressed/mentioned?
Because I thought that organizers read these kind of posts to read actual feedback from the community, yet not a single word yet.
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On a side, note, what is the TLS cups organisation opinion on facing relatively stiff resistance on the issue by contributors like zimp, mca64 who created the widely used launcher, eonzerg who sponsored defiler tournaments, and players like sziky, me, DragOn, G5, again eonzerg, Wallace the Beautiful Genius? I will be more than happy to have new foreigner faces in bw that are chogosu and willing to contribute so that the resistance of the aforementioned doesn't matter, but is that the case now? Do Scan's contributions (the 1 thread, the translation review and the 2v2 laddering) significantly overvalue the contributions of the guys above?
And to get ahead of your answers to the main post I made on the top of Page 21, I actually won't be having the time to play in the TLS cups regardless of whether Scan plays or not. If Scan is being allowed to play, the TL Organizers will be actually doing me a favour most likely as I should focus on other issues for now. Although I would really like to get significantly involved in a sponsored LAN tournament somewhere in Europe for instance.
Also I am not currently fearing my shot to the money being opressed. Although being awarded some money feels good, to me - ranking as best as possible in the TeamLiquid BW events for me is about prestige and social acknowledgement. We are far away from huge financial sponsorship taking over foreigner BW scene imo so that the money factor becoming significantly bigger than the "prestige" one is nowhere near to be seen as of now. It feels like this issue debated here is more a matter of principal to me.
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On the Michael and Pro7ect issue, I wish I had more knowledge on the matter, but I really don't want to and don't have time to spend reading their + Scan's biographies. I thought Pro7ect speaks Russian well and has grown up in Russia? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can have a say here.
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Pro7ect grew up in Russia, speaks russian fluently, never played in korean leagues, never practiced with ex-pros, was very active in the russian bw community. He's the korean you're looking for when it comes to real contributions, e.g. he arranged for In_Dove to do a livestream with Pro7ect on skype translating questions from forumers, translating the answers and whatever knowledge Dove decided to share. And it was long before the snipealots, let alone afreeca streams being available.
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EPT
