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i agree with g5. Its not fun to play or watch tour where there is a known winner from the start. Its like Poland vs San Marino.
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On July 25 2015 08:31 Falling wrote:
I've been away from bw staff discussions and decisions for awhile, but whatever the reason for sticking to the original plan, I think it is rather presumptuous to identify the leading problem as a matter of pride.
It's that or stupidity (sorry but I lack a better word for it at the moment). Which is a better presumption? I like to give people the benefit of doubt.
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Croatia9506 Posts
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 07:32 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 06:38 G5 wrote:On July 25 2015 06:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote:
If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth. On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion. Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you. Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously. With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea. If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way. Just my 2 cents. I thought about this a lot when we were first discussing it in staff forums. First, there is a significant difference between Scan's and Sea's participation in the foreign BW scene. For example, Sea didn't play in a single foreign BW tournament, while Scan played in tons of them (it's weird how it's only now becoming a problem, mainly because Scan kept playing and practicing - while being in US mind you - while everyone else stopped playing). Not to mention the participation in our forums, writing guides, streaming on TL etc. Second, Sea has an unfair advantage over foreigners by participating in the offline Korean tournaments that foreigners are not privy to. As I said before, if Scan starts doing the same we would be willing to reconsider his status. But besides all that, I'd like to address this point that seems to be repeated here every so often. That we're actually discouraging the foreign BW players from participating in the tournament because the Scan is in it. I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run. I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama. The biggest goal we're trying to achieve here is to make people care. Care about the tournament, care enough to practice that one proxy 2gate build to take down your opponent, care about our stream and tune in every saturday to watch some BW, care about the players themselves that would make you post and participate in the discussion in the forums, care enough to fight with the organizers for 18 pages how you only have a chance at 2nd place, etc. While allowing Scan in the tournament might not help us achieve all of our goals, we just had to do what seemed right to us and not care about pleasing the community in the short term, by pumping a couple of thousand of bucks in the scene. And who knows, someone might get lucky with a dt drop and history would be made! If you think having less players playing is good... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
If you think having a Korean player play in a foreign tournament thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months is the right decision... you are wrong.
What does someone's ethnicity has to do with with this?
We had a Hungarian player play in a foreign tournament (TLS1/2/3) thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months (and hey, we proved ourselves right!).
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
If you think not listening to the community is a good thing... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
If you think the possibility of 2nd place makes people practice hard and care... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
If you think it's the right decision to keep Scan... you are wrong.
I do think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
The statement I bolded up top just proves that this decision is purely out of pride/ego.
... how?
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
It's clear your decision is wrong despite you stating "what seemed right to us". Right on what level? A principal level? I don't mind decisions based on a principal but if your main goal is truly to make people care, you are again, going at it wrong.
Yes, on a principal level. Banning a member of our community from our own tournament seemed wrong to us.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
Let's be clear here. You may get a few people playing again from this but you won't get anything like you would if you reversed this decision. Look at the top foreign guys for a second. They got that good because they love the game. If you get them to actually play the game for a few months and care about this tournament, they are more likely to stick around and continue playing/streaming. If they hate your tournament and don't play, what are the chances they will stick around and continue playing/streaming? I'll give you a hint. It's NONE! This was designed to incentivize people to play and get involved and it's not doing that to it's full effect. You are truly just going about this all wrong.
This is something we're willing to discuss after we get real, empirical data. If we start budging to every request a minority of players, especially those who are biased because their shot at the money is in jeopardy, what do we do when people start requesting that we ban Sziky because he's too good?
On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 07:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote:On July 25 2015 06:43 GGzerG wrote:On July 25 2015 06:38 G5 wrote:On July 25 2015 06:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote:
If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth. On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion. Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you. Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously. With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea. If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way. Just my 2 cents. Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason.... EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5? It's undeniable that if this decision was reversed, altered, or Scan dropped out, the foreign community as well as this tournament would have a bigger spike in activity and players, including many of the top foreigners. This is a delusion that only seems true because undoubtedly we would get a few more sign-ups from very people who are protesting here. Very little would change outside of that. On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote:
Even if the admins here realize that their decision is hurting their supposed goal (which I'm sure they do), the reason they are not going to reverse it or alter it is purely out of pride and ego. Personally, I think decisions made on pride and ego are usually stupid ones and this is no exception. We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us if we want to actually see the results of our discussion before we start thinking of reversing everything we discussed so far based on the knee-jerk reaction of few players who thought could earn some money if only we eliminate all competition for them. Weird how very few of D players are actually complaining about Scan. How is it a delusion if there will "undoubtedly" be more sign-ups?
We believe it wouldn't affect the activity in any significant way; perhaps even in a negative way. Hard to tell.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote:
Oh and please don't state you take the community's feedback very seriously. You literally JUST SAID that you don't care about pleasing the community right now.
We discuss internally everything that community posts to us. We reply to almost every post in this thread. However, we have yet to hear a single reason that we haven't already responded to yet, that would make us think "oh, that's a good point; i can't believe we missed that". Banning someone because he's "too good" is not a good reason. Banning someone because of their ethnicity is not a good reason. Banning someone because of his current location is not a good reason (unless it gives the person an unfair advantage as we already said).
In the end, I'll grant you that there seems to be a contradiction in my posts because we're seemingly trying to do two opposite things; keeping Scan in the tournament (because we don't want to ban member of our community from our own tournament) and increase the activity and motivation of the foreign BW scene (which according to you won't happen unless we ban Scan). Maybe I'm just an optimist and hope that both can coexist, or maybe I just want to wait until we see some results before going against our principles.
And please do not mistake this for an ego and pride decision. I try to do all my decisions based on a scientific data-driven process.
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G5 I honestly don't see how you contributed to anything here. You brought but a few (very arguable) arguments, certainly nothing new, plenty of 'you are wrong', unnecessary negativity and near hysteria.
No tour < Scan tour, last time I checked.
As mentioned, the decision has been discussed before and so far we're at page 19 but no new arguments have been brought to the table. Apart from like 5 people saying they won't/may not play because of this decision, there's near zero data to work with and only very limited feedback. And therefore no reason to alter the decision, simple.
If people didn't work with data but with youtube comments, they wouldn't get very far.
So let's see what the tour brings short-term and long-term, learn from it and build on it. Positivity and team-work will certainly be important and it's nice to see top players like trutaCz stepping up to the challenge.
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Croatia9506 Posts
On July 25 2015 08:10 ZeRgsKy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote:
i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate.
personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever. My hero! Agree about the maps... It's 2015, we should be using the newest maps i.e SSL. I don't know what's the obsession with Tau Cross and Paranoid android, those are more reasons to not play than Scan or Sziky being participants.
We agree that there was certain amount of nostalgia involved in choosing the maps 
However, we're not adverse to changing the map pool every 5 tours or so based on the community's feedback.
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On July 25 2015 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 08:10 ZeRgsKy_ wrote:On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote:
i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate.
personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever. My hero! Agree about the maps... It's 2015, we should be using the newest maps i.e SSL. I don't know what's the obsession with Tau Cross and Paranoid android, those are more reasons to not play than Scan or Sziky being participants. We agree that there was certain amount of nostalgia involved in choosing the maps However, we're not adverse to changing the map pool every 5 tours or so based on the community's feedback.
the discussion about the maps at least is not a fruitless and drama driven thing. And TL has made it clear, they are taking the concerns about the maps very serious and think about fixing Paranoid android.
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Yeah feelings are irrelevant here. What is to be done is being as objective as possibile and deliver a sentence that is fair;
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All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
Please consider my post with an open mind and just think of the overall community. Sometimes it isn't fair and if Scan gets the short end of the stick... it is what it is. Can't please everyone, but we CAN please the majority.
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Canada11355 Posts
Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes for an interesting precedent: voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with any other dominant player such as sziky. It's tricky, though, as past TLS events were not set up to be like the DRTL and CRTL's where there is a cap on skill.
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On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
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On July 25 2015 10:03 Falling wrote:
Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes an interesting precedent, voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with any other dominant player such as sziky. It's tricky though as past TLS events were not set up to be like the DRTL and CRTL's where there is a cap on skill.
When I say "too good" - the skill gap is FAR too large. Even if we take sziky, technics, draw, etc and other tops - their skill to Scan is still 4-5 ranks differing. It's just different when using this notion of "too good" when speaking of Scan.
Once again - I don't really care which way it goes, I'm just thinking of the majority here. That's all.
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Croatia9506 Posts
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
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On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
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On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone Show nested quote +Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
This was fun truly ^^
On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter. That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
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On July 25 2015 10:09 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot This was fun truly ^^ Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter. That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!" i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out.
The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community.
As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
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Feel like many people have forgot about Michael(OD) and Pro7ect.
They are Korean just like me. I do not know if they ever gave up Korean nationality, but they were in the foreign scene. I had seen Michael in fish and played ladder game, and I realized he was in Korea. He could be just like my case. Studying abroad and then finished his studies. We do not know because we don't have a lot of information about him.
I am also not sure about pro7ect, but there was one thing that he mentioned before was that he has to do the military service. Sounds like Korean men's duty, right?
Lastly I want everyone to know this. I did not beg TL admins to let me in. If they said no, then I would simply ask "why" and hear at least one reason from them. I also wouldn't try to get in by doing dirty actions like in the past.
I am just taking my opportunity, and I've also said on the stream channel that I would like to perform great games for the audience.
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On July 25 2015 10:16 LaStScan wrote:
Feel like many people have forgot about Michael(OD) and Pro7ect.
They are Korean just like me. I do not know if they ever gave up Korean nationality, but they were in the foreign scene. I had seen Michael in fish and played ladder game, and I realized he was in Korea. He could be just like my case. Studying abroad and then finished his studies. We do not know because we don't have a lot of information about him.
I am also not sure about pro7ect, but there was one thing that he mentioned before was that he has to do the military service. Sounds like Korean men's duty, right?
Lastly I want everyone to know this. I did not beg TL admins to let me in. If they said no, then I would simply ask "why" and hear at least one reason from them. I also wouldn't try to get in by doing dirty actions like in the past.
I am just taking my opportunity, and I've also said on the stream channel that I would like to perform great games for the audience.
Scan, I respect this. And you're totally right - there's no LOGICAL reasoning to have you out, except, as I think I said it best, that you're TOO good. I'm not saying it's fair at all to kick someone out for being as good as you are.
All I'm saying, Scan, is we should give the others a chance to vote on a matter like this.
1) Unfortunately, many would vote against you in their own self-interest (but that would mainly be other top players who think they have a chance if you are out).
2) Other lesser skilled players may very well vote to keep you in to see you "perform great games."
3) And other players like me, would vote "Indifferent." So, who knows.
I say have the vote and let it play out. It could work in your favor and then we can finally end this bickering. Based on the three points above, logic would have it that you may actually benefit in this and get voted to stay in.
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On July 25 2015 10:13 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:09 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot This was fun truly ^^ On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter. That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!" i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point. There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out. The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community. As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot.
But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise.
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On July 25 2015 10:20 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:13 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:09 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot This was fun truly ^^ On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter. That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!" i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point. There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out. The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community. As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either. you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot. But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise.
Thanks, Cele. Sorry - I thought you were just trolling. Apologies for the assumption 
I just want folks to think this thru with an open-mind and TRY to be fair to the majority. Right now, it seems there's too much defense going into one person and I just find that it's not worth all this tension over one person, whether it's fair or not. We cannot limit these back-and-forth drama filled encounters without setting some sort of precedent here. And as I said in one of my posts before this one, it could very well work in Scan's favor if we vote. And if he just gets voted in, then there's no more bickering for players to have (well... there still may be, but it will be totally invalid and unmerited at that point).
And... if he gets voted out... well, at least we got an opportunity to please and service the majority.
I feel that either outcome is a victory and can end this drama and will lead TLS into a good place moving forward without all this bad blood.
It is, logically, a win-win for everyone and the TL Staff.
(obviously there would have to be strict rules set in place for the voting so that people cannot spam and make new accounts, etc, to skew the result set. But that is a different story which could be handled later to put a good system in place if the TL staff goes down this path).
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On July 25 2015 10:27 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:20 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 10:13 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:09 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot This was fun truly ^^ On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter. That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!" i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point. There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out. The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community. As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either. you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot. But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise. Thanks, Cele. Sorry - I thought you were just trolling. Apologies for the assumption
i certainly was too sarcastic and that was not an okay thing to do of me. sorry
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