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On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision. Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun. Show nested quote +Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed."
and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
edit:@ scans last post, with my proposed ruling, michael and project would both be allowed to play, given that they post on TL. They havent participated in the korean pro scene, only the foreign scene.
Scan I respect your skill and dont have anything against you as a person, but I believe that your place is in korean events, not foreign tournaments. You have many opportunities given your korean nationality, language and current location that the rest of us dont, and have practiced hard to get to an impressive skill level that more befits a top competitor there. Id be happy to see you go far in various sospa events and im sure many TLers would also cheer for you, but for you to participate in the TLS and other specifically foreign tournaments is not right imo.
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On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision. Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun. Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene. Ok, howbout this easy fix: "those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC" or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed." and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt. Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
Would revise it slightly to be:
"those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic)
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On July 25 2015 11:02 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote:On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision. Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun. Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene. Ok, howbout this easy fix: "those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC" or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed." and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt. Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility. Would revise it slightly to be: "those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC" The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic)
no, they did not to my knowledge. Im just thinking if that clause you created would have been the rule for TSL 2, Nony/idra/Ret wouldn't have played in it. Which i think leads to the problem. Players who competed in the korean professional scene (with no big time gap) have competed in foreigner Tournaments in the past. So why change now?
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On July 25 2015 11:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 11:02 ProtossGG wrote:On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote:On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision. Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun. Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene. Ok, howbout this easy fix: "those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC" or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed." and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt. Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility. Would revise it slightly to be: "those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC" The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic) no, they did not to my knowledge. Im just thinking if that clause you created would have been the rule for TSL 2, Nony/idra/Ret wouldn't have played in it. Which i think leads to the problem. Players who competed in the Korean professional scene (with no big time gap) have competed in foreigner Tournaments in the past. So why change now?
I don't think they were involved in the pro scene during TSL 2? I mean we have to check the facts, I suppose. Those were years ago so I'm not sure myself. I'm simply trying to concoct something that would still keep those players around but would vote players in Scan's position out.
Once again - instead of trying to make something in the rules, I am still a huge advocate of the voting proposition listed on Page 19 of this thread 
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nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
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On July 25 2015 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
Agreed. They probably won't. But if we're going to set rules and various precedents, it's just best to think and cover all holes, gaps, and possibilities so things like this do not happen again in the future.
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On July 25 2015 11:15 ProtossGG wrote:
I don't think they were involved in the pro scene during TSL 2?
Idrs still was in Korea, im pretty sure. He left Korea after the Sc2 Beta came out.
On July 25 2015 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
true they didnt. Though i don't think it's about korean citizenship here. The idea of the rule is to stop players from playing who have an unfair advantage from their Pro gaming affiliation. Im just trying to show here, that edge cases of "weaker" players (in pro gaming relation), as Idra was certainly no big winner in Korea , have been allowed prior to this event too.
The foreign scene has fallen behind, that's right. But on the other hand, playing on the lowest level of SOSPA events (SRT) and knowing some Pro's is not comparable to the advantage idra had. He played on CJ_ENTUS, of course he was in no important line up, but he lived in the house, practiced every day with the gosu's on the team, he had a coach helping him with his gameplay. he didn't have to pay rent or take summer classes.
That all beeing said, in my book, by old standards Scan is a semi pro or trainee, not a Progamer.
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Why are people taking time to take into consideration whether scan is "too good to play" in this or not? It is almost like this is rocket science. This is a Foreign Tournament, with a Korean playing at basically at what is considered the "pro" level at the moment. It is in the rules that Korean / Chinese players will not be allowed. The tournament organization seemingly is making a 100% Biased decision.
If you can please elaborate on how there is not a biased decision being made on the part of the event staff please do so, because I am pretty sure there is absolutely no logical rebuttal that can be said at this point. People seem to be beating around the bush but in all actuality this is broken, and unfair for BW Foreign players.
So what if Szisky and trutacz can beat Scan potentially? What about every other player that signed up that cannot and all the players that didn't sign up because of one player being in the bracket?
I can just hear Sayle now commentating each players game vs Scan lol...Oh well, gl hf gg.
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On July 25 2015 10:03 Falling wrote:
Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes for an interesting precedent: voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with
if you think about it for a while, it's the oldest idea ever because it directly translates into the "no koreans allowed" rule itself. You either ignore that stupid rule or you go by it, that's what many are saying. Firebathero participated in Riga (!) Lan 2014, is a lovely guy, will spark tons of interest to the tournament, I know people that can arrange for him to participate (it's easier than it may sound at first), I see no reason to not do it.
Thing is - with him and Scan in it you're starting to think "why not just invite Nada then? Or Terror?" Or other pros that foreign community knows and will adore participating, that will hence do good to the foreign community. Isn't that the point?
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Here's one possible solution:
Divide the tournament into two stages. The first stage would be the tournament in place now, but with a prize pool of $90 instead of $100 and with Scan banned.
The second part would be the "final boss" stage, where the winner of stage 1 plays Scan (in a best of 3, perhaps) for the remaining $10. (If Scan cannot or doesn't want to play, then just distribute the $100 normally.)
After 4 such tournaments, revert to the current scheme (1 stage, $100 + Scan) and run this 4 times.
Then, based on empirical data--participation rates in the first 4 tournaments (no Scan) vs. the following 4 tournaments (with Scan), # of viewers, player and audience comments, etc.--determine how to run the remainder of the weekly tournaments.
The idea here is to encourage top foreigners, most of whom are rusty, to get back into shape during a period of a month without discouraging them from participating because of Scan; give Scan a chance to win some money during the first 4 tournaments as compensation for disallowing him to play; and acquire empirical data upon which to make a determination of how to proceed in the remaining tournaments.
Since the 1st tournament is tomorrow (already today for me), there might not be enough time to properly discuss this or implement this. However, the scheme could be put into effect next week.
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I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution.
My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3
example:
#1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2)
#2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1)
#3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
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On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote:
I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution.
My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3
example:
#1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2)
#2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1)
#3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
It would actually be really funny if it were 2 and 1 for first and second because then it would be more profitable for a player to forfeit the finals of the tournament if they thought they'd have a solid chance of making the next finals.
from 3 tours, you would get 50
from 2 tours you would get 35
35/2 = 17.5
50/3 = 16.6
Though... Not hugely more profitable, certainly not enough to warrant forfeiting a match.
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On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote:
I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution.
My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3
example:
#1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2)
#2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1)
#3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
Another idea taken directly from skype group
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This is stupid, limiting the acess to play when there are barely few BW tournaments anyway...
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On July 25 2015 14:11 GGzerG wrote:Streaming my newb practice games for TLS ! www.afreeca.tv/evertelecom if anyone wants to see how bad I am , Excited for TLS :D
Are you being serious right now? You're derailing this thread by promoting ur own stream? LOL . I'm def reporting you.
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Basically i see tl staff not wanting to restrict scan from playing, because its not fair for him being tl member. However in this case they make many players including the most notable ones not play, and many people to lose interest in watching, making an obstacle to the whole scene to rise, which is more fair? i dont think so.
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Croatia9505 Posts
On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote:
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision. Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun. Who is eligible to play in the TLC?
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene. Ok, howbout this easy fix: "those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC".
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Another way to put it is a player who has been member of the foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches etc. I don't think there's an official definition of the term "foreigner", but making one based on the ethnicity, location or citizenship is a wrong one, in my opinion.
We want a bigger and better TLS as well, we just hope that we don't have to compromise our principles to get there. ProtossGG said it in the clearest way possible what everyone who is opposed to Scan playing is thinking, but no one wanted to say it outright because it would make them look bad and petty (ok, some did probably):
"Scan, I respect this. And you're totally right - there's no LOGICAL reasoning to have you out, except, as I think I said it best, that you're TOO good. I'm not saying it's fair at all to kick someone out for being as good as you are."
So if we did ban Scan, we would have to do it like this. It would not be fair to Scan and it would not be fair to his fans who wants to see him play. And while ProtossGG's suggestion of having a community poll is very alluring so we can put all of this behind us, there are some inherent problems with a polling system when it's not done carefully and with resources we don't have, ie. random distribution of participants and having those participants fully informed about the issue they're voting on.
Also, there were quite a few problems with TLS's, especially towards the end, that I don't believe we'll solve by keeping the status quo artificially (no, having a slightly bigger prize pool is not enough to change the status quo).
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On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
well here you go then: the chinese pro scene where Scan + Fengzi won the finals vs none other than Savior + 334.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/449968-chinese-2v2-tournament
And his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
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EPT
