On January 08 2012 14:06 Zona wrote: I can watch this match with absolute calm - no irrational emotional responses associated with either outcome, yay.
You know deep in your soul you share heartstrings with STX.
On January 08 2012 14:06 Zona wrote: I can watch this match with absolute calm - no irrational emotional responses associated with either outcome, yay.
You know deep in your soul you share heartstrings with STX.
You know what? Sure, I'll cheer for STX today. Who needs emotional stability anyways?
In a perfect world, this would be a final. But it's not a perfect world, so I hope for a good game with STX winning that will motivate both teams to rise in ranking!
STX coach doing pretty good job with getting MU for his players, hope he can show this today , gl STX! edit"omg thread dominated by STX fans , where are woongjin fans?? sleeping?
On January 08 2012 14:19 Taekwon wrote: Also Zona, is piranha and generically intentionally spelled like that?
Heh, I never noticed - and you're the first to point it out after...months? I just strung together a bunch of random words for a TL Mafia game, we had to assemble quotes and profiles for clues.
On January 08 2012 14:19 Taekwon wrote: Also Zona, is piranha and generically intentionally spelled like that?
Heh, I never noticed - and you're the first to point it out after...months? I just strung together a bunch of random words for a TL Mafia game, we had to assemble quotes and profiles for clues.
On January 08 2012 14:19 Taekwon wrote: Also Zona, is piranha and generically intentionally spelled like that?
Heh, I never noticed - and you're the first to point it out after...months? I just strung together a bunch of random words for a TL Mafia game, we had to assemble quotes and profiles for clues.
lol, it was fun imagining your sig.
Hah, I just tried it - how did you imagine the last part?
On January 08 2012 14:19 Taekwon wrote: Also Zona, is piranha and generically intentionally spelled like that?
Heh, I never noticed - and you're the first to point it out after...months? I just strung together a bunch of random words for a TL Mafia game, we had to assemble quotes and profiles for clues.
lol, it was fun imagining your sig.
Hah, I just tried it - how did you imagine the last part?
a koala shaped red brick are wielded by real koalas and they use a boring horizontal slice with a boring koala face through a battlefield of zombies and fish
Fact right as the rax finishes for Light Dear's core has just finished warping in, and the spinning starts right away 2 facts for Light? Or am I seeing things
On January 08 2012 14:27 KenNage wrote: stx coach on fire this season, he keep sending his players into "favored" matches :3
unlike T8 coach - has Sea played a Toss like 6 times in a row now? Every match this season is it not?
7 in a row, 1-6 vP so far, also why did you remembered me that? i almost forgot that for a sec T_T if stx doesnt win now it will be a sad sad weekend to remember D:
Light is going to scout the pylon at 3 oclock Dear's nat is warping in First tank is out, guess it was only a one fact then Must be seeing things Robtoics facility for Dear in his mineral only
2nd gate for Dear Light, please go scout 2 tanks and ~6 marines moving out, pushing back Dear's goons Light still pushing, Support bay planted down One goon alomst going down Light is positioned well in Dear's nat, mines are done One tank get sniped, but thats all Other tank picks off a goon Obs planted next to that robotics facility
Dear stopping vultures from dropping mines too closely
Light taking his nat
Nexus down to the yellow, but the observatory timing is perfect and Dear saves his nat with a stroke of brilliance and Light has to run away with his tail between his legs
Rax and bunker getting hammered away at by 5 goons Goons get a volley off on a tank, but repair is imba Seige is done, and one goon went down before that Dear has a citadel up, 3 gates, and is taking his mineral only Ebay is done for Light, as is his mineral only Going up to 2 facts
3 bases up, also turrets + floating EBay. Hopefully Light can pull off some semblance of a 2/1 push with large amts of vultures before carriers end up in his base.
Academy is being denied at the nat Goons take a shot or two form the tanks, but deny the academy for awhile 6 gates for Dear, stargate and arbiter tribunal going up Armory and academy finally are up Dear looking to take the 9 oclock
Light with armory done and spinning, 4th factory being placed But Dear's counters with forge spinning, 6 gates I think? Arbtech done Probe walling off 9, 2 goons wisely seal the gap
Light extending tanks from his nat choke, going into ezmode 150 supply 2/1 push timing on 4base, now all Light has to do is a-move, siege, and smash any P aggression in his way. And use goliaths.
Arbiter, shuttle and a good zealot/goon force is headed towards Light 4 goons being sent over to 6 oclock to try and deny the CC landing, and Dear pulls back the rest of his forces Tons of zealots being rallied 133-165 Light-Dear 2 stargates are pumping arbiters now
Light finally gets over his fear and sends a vulture pack to clear out the 2 goons at 6 His dropship moves out - but past Dear's observer - Dear should be on top of things
or not... 1 tank 2 vulture drop at Dear's back nat
Vessel tech is done now +1 attack for Toss is done, as is for terran Dropship is out, observer sees it though 2 vultures and a tank are in the mineral only Dear gets off a HUGE recall though behind Light's supply depots, in the main Light seiges up, and the front tanks are getting taken out, only 6 goons left Light's drop is still doing work I think Light lost quite a few, 8? depots
Dear gets his zealots right by Light's defending tanks, lots of damage But now the last 6 goons are trapped against the wall - they still surge forwards and destroy a few more tanks for their trouble
Dear taking a 5th at 10.5
Shuttle still hanging out in Light's main wonder if there's anything inside
Light still hasn't landed his CC at 6 - so intimidated he is by Dear's greatness
That recall did less damage then I thought Another one going to happen? No Dear just gave away an arbiter Another drop at the 9 oclock, but Dear is in position
Dear is poking into Light's terran force Arbiter going to recall into the main again! Runs straight into the main, and all of the forces get in Starport and armory are going down
Light has a 4th up at the 1 oclock mineral only 140-186 supply Light-Dear Two arbiters left over from the recall get given away Dear taking the 1 nat now Another recall in the backdoor narrow passage to the mineral only CC forced to lift
I'm starting to think that these recalls are only to delay the push. Pretty smart actually. It's tough since Light already pushed halfway to Dears base just by expanding, but this play is delaying quite nicely.
Dear going to take the 1 oclock main Light has vultures at the 11 oclock but all get taken out Recall, but Dear recalls over mines SCV killing the nexus <3 Light going to be pushing out with his mech force
The 6 oclock is going to get taken out! The CC gets focused down Another stasis on more tanks 101-141 supply Light is going to try and clear out the 1 main, with two tanks, but Dear is on top of it
All probes cleared out at the 1 oclock Dear still unaware of the 1 mineral only Dear setting up for another recall it looks like Mass cannon being setup atthe 1 main Light is aware of the recall, Right over the mineral only CC under construction there, and the CC that was mining Recall at 6 oclock too!
brb Light, don't leave the game for atleast 35 minutes please <3 Please Stars, win this <3 Dear is maxed out, and is going to be going after the mineral only now
Hyvaa keeping his mutas at home for defense Zero sending out another troupe of 6 lings forwards, finds one of Hyvaa's ovies with his mutas, one kill, blocking Hyvaa
See? If 9 pool vs 12 hatch was a build order win, hyvaa would not have fucked this up. Hence, it is only a build order advantage, which hyvaa squandered by not building more than 8 drones after forcing nat to cancel.
This will prove interesting. I called Woongjin to win this, but so far STX is getting the best possible matches. Protoss vs Light and Zerg vs Zero... even though Zero won it. hyvaa vs Free and Calm vs Zero would have been better for STX, but still.
On January 08 2012 15:18 Mortality wrote: This will prove interesting. I called Woongjin to win this, but so far STX is getting the best possible matches. Protoss vs Light and Zerg vs Zero... even though Zero won it. hyvaa vs Free and Calm vs Zero would have been better for STX, but still.
This actually how deep STX is thinking. Both Outlier and CR are both prone to toss being thrown out.
stars risked an anti-snipe to get a toss but STX had already invested in a double snipe toss snipe for set two and three. hyvaa, then calm.
hyvaa first to save calm just in case they were wrong - and they were right. this ascertains calm's position as a snipe.
-- now stars coach can either pick up on this and send out another anti-snipe for calm - stx in turn may possibly decide that stars would've picked up on it and send out shuttle regardless
On January 08 2012 15:13 VGhost wrote: Well after the last game that one was laughably bad. gj ZerO though.
How may Liquibets you won to get that trophy?
I started the season 13/15. There have been another 8 matches + this one, and I got at least 4 of those wrong so the trophy thing doesn't really belong to me but liquibet hasn't been updated.
On January 08 2012 15:18 Mortality wrote: This will prove interesting. I called Woongjin to win this, but so far STX is getting the best possible matches. Protoss vs Light and Zerg vs Zero... even though Zero won it. hyvaa vs Free and Calm vs Zero would have been better for STX, but still.
This actually how deep STX is thinking. Both Outlier and CR are both prone to toss being thrown out.
stars risked an anti-snipe to get a toss but STX had already invested in a double snipe toss snipe for set two and three. hyvaa, then calm.
hyvaa first to save calm just in case they were wrong - and they were right. this ascertains calm's position as a snipe.
-- now stars coach can either pick up on this and send out another anti-snipe for calm - stx in turn may possibly decide that stars would've picked up on it and send out shuttle regardless
I like that train of thought. Not as much as I'll like Calm winning though. Go Calm!
Hmm, Calm with superior ling numbers at SK's nat but SK's nat hatch finishes with its extra larvae coming and Calm backs off, Calm has spire coming, SK's lair still morphing
On January 08 2012 16:12 Taekwon wrote: It will be Shy for sure. I'm just worried about STX's last card... last wouldn't be that good a choice - too ezily predictable..
On January 08 2012 16:17 GTR wrote: seeing shy makes me curious whether guemchi/flying are down the protoss food chain or shy is that good in practice.
On January 08 2012 16:17 GTR wrote: seeing shy makes me curious whether guemchi/flying are down the protoss food chain or shy is that good in practice.
ive always been curious...is the celstia ur referencing in location the one from RH? or from that space simulation?
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: god fuck these cheesers
Last double scouted to make sure he found out about something this greedy early enough to do something about it. Really nice play, Shy should've played standard
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs make any difference? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
That'll teach those greedy protosses not to 14nex hehe. Btw that was not cheese, last is just punishing greedy play and he knows he has a good chance to at least kill the nexus. I dont think he would have done it if it was on cross positions.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
The only reason it worked is because the scouting probe was killed just before it saw the scvs. One shield battery would have stopped that. If this is not cheese I don't know what you consider cheese.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
yeah pulling 10 scvs is standard response
It actually is...even the commentators were urging Last to go make a bunker after he saw the 12nex
"Make a bunker" != pulling 10 SCVs
If he didn't pull that many scvs, it would've been impossible to make a bunker with the dragoons and probes pulled. Some of you need to realize that pulling workers to aid in a timing attack does not mean it's cheese
On January 08 2012 16:21 Taekwon wrote: TWO FAC END IT LAST!
def not, shy made nex first 12 nex > 2 fac
lolwut
2 fac is the next best punishment after bunker rush ..
2 fact is terrible vs 12 nex, it hits too late. You mustn't play much
*facepalm.
there are different variations of 2 fac. when toss two gates after 12 nex, u go two fac no shop and capitlize slight vulture timing
nt, but next time save the ad hom for your siblings.
As far as I know only the first vulture will do some damage before the first goon comes out and then the harass is pretty much over.
I did say slight. Like I said, if terran is wholeheartedly set on punishing and chooses not to BR, this is the next best punishment, unless you've alternative suggestions.
But yeah, good game lol, phew cheer leading was tiring
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
You can't lump all early aggression together like that no matter how many years you've been here.
This sort of attack is very different from the rofl build
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
Pardon me, but even though i cheered for Stars as well, i ll have to agree that Bunker Rush is pretty much the standard response when you scouted opponent going Nexus First. The amount of SCVs brought was mostly likely due to him scouting 2x Gateways from Shy, thus he needed that much Meat Shield. If Shy had withdrawn his probes to main, and continued normally, those SCVs would have gone back to Last's main and mine soon enough.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
I'd have to criticize your perception over the years then as you have several objecting over just the last few pages...
I don't mind what you think of it but don't openly call it cheese without your thoughts...if you want to dodge the question, perfectly fine - I agree it's not worth flipping out over but don't arbitrarily attribute a strategic punishment as cheese without any reason...
It's not even about being right or wrong, please understand. I mean no offense, but it's just about netizen etiquette for me.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
You can't lump all early aggression together like that no matter how many years you've been here.
This sort of attack is very different from the rofl build
why can't i? it's how i've seen the term used. if you can point me to a definition of cheese that would exclude it, i'm happy to read it, but as i understand it it's what the word means.
by the way, the standard definitions like "if it works you win, if not you lose" and "one way or another the game is over in a few minutes" etc. don't actually work either. there have definitely been games that started 4pool, 8rax etc. that ended up with the cheese doing a certain amount of damage and then getting cleared up, and with rough equalization and normal play after that.
On January 08 2012 16:25 kingalexxx wrote: [quote] It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
You can't lump all early aggression together like that no matter how many years you've been here.
This sort of attack is very different from the rofl build
why can't i? it's how i've seen the term used. if you can point me to a definition of cheese that would exclude it, i'm happy to read it, but as i understand it it's what the word means.
by the way, the standard definitions like "if it works you win, if not you lose" and "one way or another the game is over in a few minutes" etc. don't actually work either. there have definitely been games that started 4pool, 8rax etc. that ended up with the cheese doing a certain amount of damage and then getting cleared up, and with rough equalization and normal play after that.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
On January 08 2012 16:24 Le French wrote: fucking cheesers!
It's not cheese at all....he's just punishing sHy for being so greedy
wat?
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
I'd have to criticize your perception over the years then as you have several objecting over just the last few pages...
I don't mind what you think of it but don't openly call it cheese without your thoughts...if you want to dodge the question, perfectly fine - I agree it's not worth flipping out over but don't arbitrarily attribute a strategic punishment as cheese without any reason...
It's not even about being right or wrong, please understand. I mean no offense, but it's just about netizen etiquette for me.
lololol
If he pulled that many SCVs and failed then he would have like 15 SCVs left plus a ton of lost mining time against a 12 nexus opening, which would basically be complete economic gg. In fact instances of this have happened where Terran pulls a fuckton of SCVs, kills the nexus, then loses the game because of how much it hurts your own economy (upmagic vs stork). You rarely ever see terrans pull that many scvs for this sort of thing because of that, and Last just wanted to end it right there instead of doing what I would call the "standard bunker rush response" that kills a couple of probes and causes toss to lose mining time while expanding behind mines.
e: also I don't give a shit whether it's cheese or not, only that someone called it the standard bunker rush response which it was not
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
You can't lump all early aggression together like that no matter how many years you've been here.
This sort of attack is very different from the rofl build
why can't i? it's how i've seen the term used. if you can point me to a definition of cheese that would exclude it, i'm happy to read it, but as i understand it it's what the word means.
by the way, the standard definitions like "if it works you win, if not you lose" and "one way or another the game is over in a few minutes" etc. don't actually work either. there have definitely been games that started 4pool, 8rax etc. that ended up with the cheese doing a certain amount of damage and then getting cleared up, and with rough equalization and normal play after that.
right, i just checked that out. notice how the bunker rush with a ton of scvs is exactly the example they use
i don't have much invested in this debate so i'm happy to concede the point, i just want to make it clear that i wasn't simply throwing a pejorative term around - i don't view it as a pejorative (i love the occasional 4pool, for example) and i also feel pretty strongly that i have a decent understanding of the term.
sorry if i offended anyone, especially since i feel it was a well-played game and a well-timed attack by last.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
I'd have to criticize your perception over the years then as you have several objecting over just the last few pages...
I don't mind what you think of it but don't openly call it cheese without your thoughts...if you want to dodge the question, perfectly fine - I agree it's not worth flipping out over but don't arbitrarily attribute a strategic punishment as cheese without any reason...
It's not even about being right or wrong, please understand. I mean no offense, but it's just about netizen etiquette for me.
lololol
If he pulled that many SCVs and failed then he would have like 15 SCVs left plus a ton of lost mining time against a 12 nexus opening, which would basically be complete economic gg. You rarely ever see terrans pull that many scvs for this sort of thing because of that, so Last just wanted to end it right there instead of what I would call the "standard bunker rush response" that kills a couple of probes and causes toss to lose mining time while expanding behind mines.
An all-in is not cheese. I don't think anyone is disputing that last was going all-in with that attack.
From wikipedia's definition of cheese, based on last's actions:
-Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional -and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. -In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
Unconventional? Nope, it was a standard response to early protoss greed, especially in close positions By surprise? Yes, but wasn't planned from the beginning of the game. Hard to beat if not scouted? Doesn't apply because a bunker rush is impossible to scout beforehand. It's a spur of the moment response to the opponent's build.
from the tl wiki: "Supposed Origins
During a broadcast game on September 16, 2009, OGN commentator Um Jae Kyung (엄재경) briefly discussed the difference between a bunker rush and a "cheese" rush. According to his explanation, the term "cheese" originated from the word "cheater's" (words in Korean are sometimes shortened by the middle syllables, so 치터즈 [chi tuh zu] would become 치즈 [chi zu]). The strategy is characterized by, as opposed to a simple bunker rush, a practically unbeatable combination of most of the Terran's SCVs and a very quickly assembled group of marines. Because both Protoss and Zerg basic units are unranged, SCVs can effectively prevent the ranged marines from being destroyed by obstructing the path between the units, giving the marines a tremendous (and thus unfair) edge."
i don't think of this as an unfair advantage or a cheating strategy, though - shy could easily have cheesed too, it's not like only one race gets to cheese
On January 08 2012 16:47 Taekwon wrote: Thanks to Shimmy for the thread, Zona for his incredible and always interesting LR and all streamers, contributors and moral support (mustajju)!
CELEBRATE STX FANS!! MAY THIS STREAK CONTINIUE!
Thanks for helping to reform me. I hope I'll have cause to celebrate like this again. Best of luck to Stars as well! I'll cheer hard for you in your next game!
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
I'd have to criticize your perception over the years then as you have several objecting over just the last few pages...
I don't mind what you think of it but don't openly call it cheese without your thoughts...if you want to dodge the question, perfectly fine - I agree it's not worth flipping out over but don't arbitrarily attribute a strategic punishment as cheese without any reason...
It's not even about being right or wrong, please understand. I mean no offense, but it's just about netizen etiquette for me.
lololol
If he pulled that many SCVs and failed then he would have like 15 SCVs left plus a ton of lost mining time against a 12 nexus opening, which would basically be complete economic gg. You rarely ever see terrans pull that many scvs for this sort of thing because of that, so Last just wanted to end it right there instead of what I would call the "standard bunker rush response" that kills a couple of probes and causes toss to lose mining time while expanding behind mines.
An all-in is not cheese. I don't think anyone is disputing that last was going all-in with that attack.
This is pretty much all I wanted to say, never wanted to argue about cheese semantics
i don't mind it at all but it's definitely cheese.
Bunker rush is standard response to neutralize economic advantage from 12 nex
this wasn't a standard bunker rush, did you see all the scvs?
How does the number of scvs count? He pulled off like ten. enough to force probes out and enough to still continue the game should his bunker rush fail.
ergo, not cheese
10 workers in an attack = cheese. not criticizing, it worked beautifully.
Your logic please? Or is this some brightline you just made up?
logic? i've been here for several years and have never seen anyone object to early aggression that involved ten workers being called cheese, and i've regularly seen aggression of this type called cheesy. i don't think there's any reason that it being in response to something, or it being strategically sensible, would make it not cheese.
that said, i don't think it's a particularly important or meaningful term and i'm not sure why everyone seems to be flipping out about it.
I'd have to criticize your perception over the years then as you have several objecting over just the last few pages...
I don't mind what you think of it but don't openly call it cheese without your thoughts...if you want to dodge the question, perfectly fine - I agree it's not worth flipping out over but don't arbitrarily attribute a strategic punishment as cheese without any reason...
It's not even about being right or wrong, please understand. I mean no offense, but it's just about netizen etiquette for me.
lololol
If he pulled that many SCVs and failed then he would have like 15 SCVs left plus a ton of lost mining time against a 12 nexus opening, which would basically be complete economic gg. You rarely ever see terrans pull that many scvs for this sort of thing because of that, so Last just wanted to end it right there instead of what I would call the "standard bunker rush response" that kills a couple of probes and causes toss to lose mining time while expanding behind mines.
An all-in is not cheese. I don't think anyone is disputing that last was going all-in with that attack.
From wikipedia's definition of cheese, based on last's actions:
-Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional -and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. -In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
Unconventional? Nope, it was a standard response to early protoss greed, especially in close positions By surprise? Yes, but wasn't planned from the beginning of the game. Hard to beat if not scouted? Doesn't apply because a bunker rush is impossible to scout beforehand. It's a spur of the moment response to the opponent's build.
... By definition, if it's conventional then there should be no surprise. Cheese has nothing to do with whether it was planned. By your definition, a 4 pool is not cheese if the player forgot to build drones. Of course you can scout it. In fact protoss almost scouted it last game.
Editing your post and replacing it with an insult. Classy.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
No, you are unfortunately right on both aspects. =( Cemented by Kal's post-game interviews...
Regardless, one can only hope...Even Goojillas can't abandon their BFFs.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
That is highly at odds with STX's reputation as a generous team in both quarters and pay. Also, in the history of STX, they took a lot of players in to nurse them back to health, such as July, Frozen and hyvaa. Is that STX truly a thing of the past? Of course, the "whole team up for trade" was a bad sign, but I never thought that management was that ruthless. :S
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
That is highly at odds with STX's reputation as a generous team in both quarters and pay. Also, in the history of STX, they took a lot of players in to nurse them back to health, such as July, Frozen and hyvaa. Is that STX truly a thing of the past?
oh i think they were probably not accurate, although this thing about stx parting ways with kal seems to have been
edit: oh, the "whole team up for trade" thing was what i was talking about, i guess - i seem to have mangled it
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
Yeah, I remember reading that specifically. If you just look at STX's results from last season, it was clear that the only player that was pulling his weight was Bogus, and given the general state of a bunch of other teams at the time it seemed like the story about STX was plausible. Also take a look at this, I'm pretty sure even Jangbi at his worst might have had a better winrate than Kal did last season in proleague.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
Yeah, I remember reading that specifically. If you just look at STX's results from last season, it was clear that the only player that was pulling his weight was Bogus, and given the general state of a bunch of other teams at the time it seemed like the story about STX was plausible. Also take a look at this, I'm pretty sure even Jangbi at his worst might have had a better winrate than Kal did last season in proleague.
Truth be told, The Zergs are letting STX down pretty heavily this season, even compared to the last one. Can they be revived? Time will tell. But with a strong 1-2 punch in Last+ Bogus, Dear, and a few good snipes, this format might be winnable without them. I wonder how Shuttle is doing?
Shuttle hasn't been particularly good since 09-10 season in my opinion and Last is still rather unproven but seems decent. Dear I honestly have no idea about. Then there's clam/modesty/hyvaa/etc who clearly aren't doing much. I remember Classic was okay a while back, but given his lack of playtime this season I doubt he's a good option either.
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
that doesnt sound like it makes too much sense at all, especially considering how many times STX still played Kal on PL despite his poor performance (how else could he obtain such a bad record last year?). obviously they had faith in his skill, but for whatever reason he kept choking pretty bad when he played on TV. his move to ACE was driven by his desire to remove stress from himself (and it seems to be working).
On January 08 2012 16:38 kingalexxx wrote: Imagine if STX still had Kal....
Kal had something like 30% winrate for the greater part of last year, I don't blame STX for deciding to drop him, especially when he probably had one of the higher salaries of all the players on the team.
Of course, now he's actually winning so...
STX didn't "drop him". Once he finishes his Air Force ACE years, I bet he'll return, if STX still exists.
I always assumed that his choice to enter the military at this specific time was in some way influenced by STX. I actually remember reading something several months about Kal not being in STX's "long term plans," but that may have been hearsay.
Most distressing. I'll put it in the back of my head as Hearsay though.
i remember a lot of rumors going around about stx before the new pl format and team structure was finalized. i remember an especially odd one where stx was apparently planning on replacing every single player on their team. obviously they didn't and i'm not sure where the rumor came from. i think people were pretty scared about mbc ceasing to broadcast, and of course about mbc, wemade, and oz disbanding, so anything seemed believable
Yeah, I remember reading that specifically. If you just look at STX's results from last season, it was clear that the only player that was pulling his weight was Bogus, and given the general state of a bunch of other teams at the time it seemed like the story about STX was plausible. Also take a look at this, I'm pretty sure even Jangbi at his worst might have had a better winrate than Kal did last season in proleague.
Truth be told, The Zergs are letting STX down pretty heavily this season, even compared to the last one. Can they be revived? Time will tell. But with a strong 1-2 punch in Last+ Bogus, Dear, and a few good snipes, this format might be winnable without them. I wonder how Shuttle is doing?
calm is 2-2 with both losses coming from BO disadvantages in ZvZ, so that's not too bad. for some reason STX keeps playing hyvaa though, who is doing awful this season :\. hero/modesty not doing very well at all either (although modesty got a little unlucky having to face flash, jaedong, and hydra so far). hyvaa is probably doing pretty well in practice judging by STX playing him nearly every single match, but I guess he has developed the case of nerves that kal left behind or something. hero sadly hasn't looked decent since like mid 2010 :\.
I really want to see calm played more so we can gauge his skill better (especially vs T), but maybe he's only being played so little because he's only able to look winnable if he has a good snipe build planned (like vs best) but keeps getting zergs instead. i also want to see mini played more, he looked to show a lot of promise.
On January 08 2012 19:15 Iplaythings wrote: STX is doing well again.. Something is a litte more "right" in the world now..
If only Calm picked up the pace he used to have
If I remember correctly, Calm plays good if he know his opponent beforehand, right?
Except if it's Fantasy. Then expect shenanigans.
Yup. Brainzerg is only brainzerg when he knows his opponent beforehand. Seriously look his individual leagues run and he always went far in them. Also, long time ago when PL told teams their lineups Calm had a highly winning rate when he played.
I don't blame him for having bad luck, but I am quiet sure he loses confidence when he doesn't play against the opponent he expected (therefore rolling over and die), even if he has one of the best mechanics in-game and great game sense.
It would be quiet interesting if he relied more in his raw skills instead of planning ahead.
On January 08 2012 20:36 KTF_CloaK wrote: No reccomendations? i have limited time can someone tell me which games were good thanks in advance.
Set 1 (Dear vs Light) was quite good. Set 2 (hyvaa vs ZerO) was bad. Set 3 (Calm vs Soulkey) was a good ZvZ, fairly tense. Set 4 (Bogus vs free) started well but the loser just collapsed. Set 5 (Last vs sHy) was exciting if you like cheese.
tl;dr watch the first set and probably the third, the rest were meh.
I like sHy a lot and it's sad to see him lose. But fuck yeah, LAST!!! So happy for STX winning this! Bogus showing free some mercy is understandable. He's just that kind of guy. Well mannered, a heart of gold. Of course he's gonna give Last a chance to shine. Sick ending to this weekends games. GG!
Congratulations to STX for winning this important match. Next match vs SKT will be an epic series between two top-level teams (and SKT will win in the end though ^^)
On January 09 2012 03:57 Xiphos wrote: Wait, is STX on a 3 game winning streak?
We'll make it 4 vs. SKT.
I hope Bogus can take down any of the FBB. Good Luck.
I hope he takes BeSt because I am absolutely disgusted by him performing arrogant acts like fooling around after a win. Someone need to push him into paewanghood again a la JulyZerg.
On January 09 2012 03:57 Xiphos wrote: Wait, is STX on a 3 game winning streak?
We'll make it 4 vs. SKT.
I hope Bogus can take down any of the FBB. Good Luck.
I hope he takes BeSt because I am absolutely disgusted by him performing arrogant acts like fooling around after a win. Someone need to push him into paewanghood again a la JulyZerg.
On January 09 2012 03:57 Xiphos wrote: Wait, is STX on a 3 game winning streak?
We'll make it 4 vs. SKT.
I hope Bogus can take down any of the FBB. Good Luck.
I hope he takes BeSt because I am absolutely disgusted by him performing arrogant acts like fooling around after a win. Someone need to push him into paewanghood again a la JulyZerg.
On January 09 2012 03:57 Xiphos wrote: Wait, is STX on a 3 game winning streak?
We'll make it 4 vs. SKT.
I hope Bogus can take down any of the FBB. Good Luck.
I hope he takes BeSt because I am absolutely disgusted by him performing arrogant acts like fooling around after a win. Someone need to push him into paewanghood again a la JulyZerg.
Please tell me you're joking and it just flew over my head
EPT![[image loading]](http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/ryandman768/PokemonHeader.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0K4sD.png)
STX SouL VS ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gd6OZ.png)
Woongjin Stars
Dear < Electric Circuit > 
Light
hyvaa < Outlier > ![[image loading]](http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/ryandman768/PokeResults.jpg)
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!
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