EPT[SPL] SKTelecom T1 vs CJ Entus - Page 74
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
It's an extremely minor upset at most. | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 05:28 infinity2k9 wrote: Horang2 is objectively better overall regardless of the result of one game tbh.. hardly BeSt's fault though, check his TLPD and page 1 of his PvP's goes all the way back to 2008 cause he's played so few of them. Horang2 is more of a matchup sniper. Best is more of a PvT sniper/support to Bisu. I see his loss to best as a demonstration that he practices PvP a heck of a lot more than Best does, but doesn't have the same on-screen nerves that Best has, coupled with the emotional trauma of falling behind in his "dependable" MU. His final mistake with his speedlot/archon army was really a mistake of nerves--had he been patient and composed, he would have won. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 06:44 Xiphos wrote: *Sigh* so many can't recognize that BeSt is the ORIGINAL Macro beast AND PvP god. He had like over 85% win rate before Stork pushed him to oblivion in Incruit OSL. Being good in 2009 doesn't make you good in 2012. Staying on top in post-Savior BW requires constant practice and metagaming. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
On January 03 2012 06:45 sviatoslavrichter wrote: Staying on top in post-Savior BW requires constant practice and metagaming. ...wut smh. | ||
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VGhost
United States3620 Posts
I assume as in reviewing matchups & timings, finding new timings, making sure you know all builds & maps, can execute and defend cheese, etc. etc. Metagame is not a bad thing. (Then again I'm a chess player.) | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 06:50 VGhost wrote: I assume as in reviewing matchups & timings, finding new timings, making sure you know all builds & maps, can execute and defend cheese, etc. etc. Metagame is not a bad thing. (Then again I'm a chess player.) Yep, metagaming includes that, plus careful analysis of which opponents you're likely to face in the match, their past tendencies in early, mid, and late-game scenarios under relaxed and tense situations, etc. See Flash vs. Calm on Neo Moon Glaive, where Flash blind countered a 2hatch lurker all-in, for an example of successful metagaming. The final ingredient is to carefully analyze your own play. Knowing what your opponents think you will do is an extremely powerful tool, and something I think the best BW pros have honed to a science. Having an objective, insightful coach is probably key in this regard. EDIT: See how Flash blindly makes 2 more bunkers at his nat at 6:40 without seeing anything from the zerg other than 8 zerglings and a 12 hatch--this was before his scan was even done | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Just do the Bisu Build Metagame Timing Push. Wins all the time. | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 07:31 Lightwip wrote: Just do the Bisu Build Metagame Timing Push. Wins all the time. Jokes aside, metagaming is serious business dude. Having a firm grasp of your opponents tendencies and choices is what separates the truly great BW players from the merely good. It's also what lets some players break records in individual leagues while keeping other players from qualifying for them. | ||
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VGhost
United States3620 Posts
Chain Reaction Jade Outlier Ground Zero Sniper Ridge The place to start with predictions is Outlier, which is the one map either team seems to have a designated player for: this would normally be  Bisu for SKT.  Hydra is CJ's normal player for Outlier, but in this case Horang2 seems the better choice, as his other matchups are weaker while Hydra is a genuine ace (and Bisu did wreck EffOrt just now). Then the other possibility is that SKT anticipates this and sends a Zerg – likely n.Die_soO – to counter-snipe Horang2. CJ, though, tends to be a sniping team, while SKT seems to rely on their players to perform.Bisu <Outlier> Horang2Now we get into trickier waters. Hydra has technically played more on Chain Reaction than any other CJ player, but not enough to necessarily be predictable. SKT, though, has sent either BeSt or Zergs, making Hydra a good call to open the match. I don't think that SKT coaching will send BeSt on a map where they expect a Zerg; probably s2 comes out here for a ZvZ unless they play for an early appearance by  Fantasy.s2 <Chain Reaction> HydraJade has been either Protoss or their respective ace Terrans, but mostly Protoss, for both teams. I don't see CJ sending Leta up against a probable Protoss or wasting him on a possible TvT with Fantasy, meaning I expect to see Movie here or perhaps Snow. fantasy has played more on Jade than on the other remaining maps, and is a solid choice regardless of opponent, so I think we see him here for the first rematch of the night.Fantasy <Jade> MovieJust so we're straight here, I have the first three matches looking like this: I expect Hydra and fantasy to win; Bisu vs Horang2 is a toss-up but in either case we'll get one team trying to finish vs another team trying to survive in the fourth set. Neither team has been particularly predictable on Ground Zero, but I see By.Sun for SKT coming out to face EffOrt: BeSt would be better against Leta and maybe Snow, but worrying against EffOrt; n.Die_soO might come out but I think Sun is stronger. Leta I think will be held for the ace but in any case is unlikely to play on a probable Protoss map; Snow is possible as well.By.Sun <Ground Zero> EffOrtThe final map is Sniper Ridge: with CJ's remaining players being Snow and Leta, and the map being not bad for Protoss, I think we see BeSt rather than risk a Zerg. With that in mind, CJ probably sends Snow – although since he's outclassed in the potential mirror, we might see EffOrt here and Snow in the fourth set.BeSt <Sniper Ridge> SnowFinal lineup & results prediction: | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On January 03 2012 05:44 sviatoslavrichter wrote: Horang2 is more of a matchup sniper. Best is more of a PvT sniper/support to Bisu. I see his loss to best as a demonstration that he practices PvP a heck of a lot more than Best does, but doesn't have the same on-screen nerves that Best has, coupled with the emotional trauma of falling behind in his "dependable" MU. His final mistake with his speedlot/archon army was really a mistake of nerves--had he been patient and composed, he would have won. wut. the 14 kill dt at the beginning of the game + the fast expansion from best and fast forge +1 upgrade sealed the game. best made a smart move by taking a long route with his DT, horang2's second observer was halfway across the map and horang2 had to wait 30 seconds to get a second obs out to deal with the DT. horang2 made no mistakes after that first one, even though he managed to macro out a similar sized army, BeSt had the upgrade advantage, probe advantage (due to impeccable storm harass), and storm advantage (more high templars). Best had an insurmountable advantage, and horang2 didnt upgrade storm early because he had to spend his money on gateways to catch up on units. horang2 didnt lose to nerves or whatever, if he did it would have been ages ago. the archons were to diminish bests' zealots, but horang2 didnt have enough dragoons to deal ranged damage and BeSts' upgrades just overcame and steamrolled the battle | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On January 03 2012 09:14 VGhost wrote: + Show Spoiler + Calendar gives the following maps for tonight (& fomos agrees): Chain Reaction Jade Outlier Ground Zero Sniper Ridge The place to start with predictions is Outlier, which is the one map either team seems to have a designated player for: this would normally be Bisu for SKT. Hydra is CJ's normal player for Outlier, but in this case Horang2 seems the better choice, as his other matchups are weaker while Hydra is a genuine ace (and Bisu did wreck EffOrt just now). Then the other possibility is that SKT anticipates this and sends a Zerg – likely n.Die_soO – to counter-snipe Horang2. CJ, though, tends to be a sniping team, while SKT seems to rely on their players to perform.Bisu <Outlier> Horang2Now we get into trickier waters. Hydra has technically played more on Chain Reaction than any other CJ player, but not enough to necessarily be predictable. SKT, though, has sent either BeSt or Zergs, making Hydra a good call to open the match. I don't think that SKT coaching will send BeSt on a map where they expect a Zerg; probably s2 comes out here for a ZvZ unless they play for an early appearance by Fantasy.s2 <Chain Reaction> HydraJade has been either Protoss or their respective ace Terrans, but mostly Protoss, for both teams. I don't see CJ sending Leta up against a probable Protoss or wasting him on a possible TvT with Fantasy, meaning I expect to see Movie here or perhaps Snow. fantasy has played more on Jade than on the other remaining maps, and is a solid choice regardless of opponent, so I think we see him here for the first rematch of the night.Fantasy <Jade> MovieJust so we're straight here, I have the first three matches looking like this: I expect Hydra and fantasy to win; Bisu vs Horang2 is a toss-up but in either case we'll get one team trying to finish vs another team trying to survive in the fourth set. Neither team has been particularly predictable on Ground Zero, but I see By.Sun for SKT coming out to face EffOrt: BeSt would be better against Leta and maybe Snow, but worrying against EffOrt; n.Die_soO might come out but I think Sun is stronger. Leta I think will be held for the ace but in any case is unlikely to play on a probable Protoss map; Snow is possible as well.By.Sun <Ground Zero> EffOrtThe final map is Sniper Ridge: with CJ's remaining players being Snow and Leta, and the map being not bad for Protoss, I think we see BeSt rather than risk a Zerg. With that in mind, CJ probably sends Snow – although since he's outclassed in the potential mirror, we might see EffOrt here and Snow in the fourth set.BeSt <Sniper Ridge> SnowFinal lineup & results prediction: ah that's a very nice post, i like when people post detailed predictions. personally i can't for the life of me get used to the maps and am in a sleep-deprivation delirium during matches either way so no insights from me, HA WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT. who put the match on 12 CET, that's totally not my normal BW schedule... | ||
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tryummm
774 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:15 saltywet wrote: wut. the 14 kill dt at the beginning of the game + the fast expansion from best and fast forge +1 upgrade sealed the game. best made a smart move by taking a long route with his DT, horang2's second observer was halfway across the map and horang2 had to wait 30 seconds to get a second obs out to deal with the DT. horang2 made no mistakes after that first one, even though he managed to macro out a similar sized army, BeSt had the upgrade advantage, probe advantage (due to impeccable storm harass), and storm advantage (more high templars). Best had an insurmountable advantage, and horang2 didnt upgrade storm early because he had to spend his money on gateways to catch up on units. horang2 didnt lose to nerves or whatever, if he did it would have been ages ago. the archons were to diminish bests' zealots, but horang2 didnt have enough dragoons to deal ranged damage and BeSts' upgrades just overcame and steamrolled the battle Horang2 made a huge mistake when he attacked up the hill and last a large portion of his army. He made up for it somewhat afterwards as Best chased him back, but the attack was a huge boost for Best. | ||
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babysuperga
Vietnam49 Posts
wut. the 14 kill dt at the beginning of the game + the fast expansion from best and fast forge +1 upgrade sealed the game. best made a smart move by taking a long route with his DT, horang2's second observer was halfway across the map and horang2 had to wait 30 seconds to get a second obs out to deal with the DT. horang2 made no mistakes after that first one, even though he managed to macro out a similar sized army, BeSt had the upgrade advantage, probe advantage (due to impeccable storm harass), and storm advantage (more high templars). Best had an insurmountable advantage, and horang2 didnt upgrade storm early because he had to spend his money on gateways to catch up on units. horang2 didnt lose to nerves or whatever, if he did it would have been ages ago. the archons were to diminish bests' zealots, but horang2 didnt have enough dragoons to deal ranged damage and BeSts' upgrades just overcame and steamrolled the battle Totally agree with this. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 03 2012 11:11 babysuperga wrote: wut. the 14 kill dt at the beginning of the game + the fast expansion from best and fast forge +1 upgrade sealed the game. best made a smart move by taking a long route with his DT, horang2's second observer was halfway across the map and horang2 had to wait 30 seconds to get a second obs out to deal with the DT. horang2 made no mistakes after that first one, even though he managed to macro out a similar sized army, BeSt had the upgrade advantage, probe advantage (due to impeccable storm harass), and storm advantage (more high templars). Best had an insurmountable advantage, and horang2 didnt upgrade storm early because he had to spend his money on gateways to catch up on units. horang2 didnt lose to nerves or whatever, if he did it would have been ages ago. the archons were to diminish bests' zealots, but horang2 didnt have enough dragoons to deal ranged damage and BeSts' upgrades just overcame and steamrolled the battle Horang2 made a huge mistake when he attacked up the hill and last a large portion of his army. He made up for it somewhat afterwards as Best chased him back, but the attack was a huge boost for Best. [/QUOTE] Totally agree with this. [/QUOTE] AND for fusing those HTs together into Archons. Seriously Storms are much more of stepping stool to a comeback than those splash dmg that those fuzzy balls do. | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
AND for fusing those HTs together into Archons. Seriously Storms are much more of stepping stool to a comeback than those splash dmg that those fuzzy balls do. Sorry, seems like I misread the game. I stand corrected | ||
Disregard
China10252 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
AND for fusing those HTs together into Archons. Seriously Storms are much more of stepping stool to a comeback than those splash dmg that those fuzzy balls do. Best's advantage was not insurmountable, in fact Horang2 was ahead in supply and economy before his terrible engagement. Horang2 could've done a much much better job at feedbacking, since his composition was completely reliant on how well he could feedback the HT. Had he engaged in a better position and sniped all the HT before storms were casted (difficult to do, but possible), the result would've been very different. honestly I'm not certain why Horang2 chose to force the engagement. He was ahead economy-wise, and could've waited for Best to force the engagement on his terms, with Reavers to support and the rest of his army to come out of the Gateways. He lost that game with his own crucial mistake. | ||
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poisui
1088 Posts
On January 03 2012 07:12 sviatoslavrichter wrote: EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuZnu4_LWwE See how Flash blindly makes 2 more bunkers at his nat at 6:40 without seeing anything from the zerg other than 8 zerglings and a 12 hatch--this was before his scan was even done Of course Flash, aka God, knew exactly what the opponent was going to do. God sees all. God, aka Flash, is such a human maphack. =) | ||
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