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On July 18 2011 10:24 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:There's some massive absurdity here. You count CH for Woongjin, but not KT. You count the SKT zergs but don't count Calm or Shine. You count fucking Fantasy despite having the worst slump of his career but don't count Hiya, Kal, or Free. Firebathero has been better than half the players on the list, and Jangbi has been tearing it up hard despite some failures to strong ZvPers. The entire SKT lineup past Bisu is either slumping (fantasy) or snipers (Best, every zerg), which is basically the same with STX and everyone past bogus and shuttle. That you think STX is only the 8th deepest team in proleague is farcical at best. SKT zergs isnt an argument anymore as this season have proven worthy. Fantasy has a great record over the whole season too. Hiya, Kal, and Free did nothing for their teams if you look at the season as a whole. Had Shine played better or his coaches had confidence in playing him the last 2 rounds then he could have had a chance to make that list. Calm, while accumulating 26 wins this season, had 27 losses and a losing record isnt something to be proud of. Firebathero comes in at 50% on this season and he did play well, the only thing I can say is he didnt have a winning record. Jangbi winning a bunch of games recently doesn't mean jack. Most of those were individual league games, but on the season as a whole, did not contribute much for khan at all. I mean honestly, he failed to step up in the playoffs. Summary: calm down lol, its based on his criteria, which makes more sense then your counter arguments. You're defending players that haven't shown up for their teams. See SKT to understand what it means to be a team.
It is very pedantic to look at eight months of play and apply it to what's going on right now. Fantasy is not as good as his record, Jangbi is better than his record. STX is deeper than 2 players and it's painfully obvious. There's no sense to a criteria that's looks so far back in the past and so flagrantly disregards recent efforts.
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Can someone tell me what date is day3? TL calendar seems to not list it (or I'm simply blind and can't see it).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51621 Posts
On July 18 2011 11:45 Lebesgue wrote:
Can someone tell me what date is day3? TL calendar seems to not list it (or I'm simply blind and can't see it).
July 19th 1800KST
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On July 18 2011 11:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:45 Lebesgue wrote:
Can someone tell me what date is day3? TL calendar seems to not list it (or I'm simply blind and can't see it). July 19th 1800KST
Thanks! So Tuesday night is the big night. Can't wait!
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You have a team that only had 5-6 players who had played ANY televised games in their careers before Rd 5, ranked above KT, STX and Oz. Enough said about this list.
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On July 18 2011 12:11 Ryo wrote:You have a team that only had 5-6 players who had played ANY televised games in their careers before Rd 5, ranked above KT, STX and Oz. Enough said about this list.
KT and (especially) OZ really don't have that much depth. STX was a weird one that kind of got cheated by my initial criteria. I assume you're talking about MBC: their weakness is lack of an S-class (or at least A+) ace, because otherwise they do compare reasonably favorably. I still think SKT and CJ are the only real "deep" teams, judging by results (STX ought to be "deep" but apparently can't quite win when it counts). KHAN, Woongjin, WeMade all have the potential but it didn't translate to results this year (except maybe for Woongjin, who's still alive in the playoffs.
Anyway, I dun showed my work.
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Criteria of that list is kinda odd. Year-long results don't really translate to who is good now I think.
Maybe you'll have a better list of who is deep now just by taking more recent results (rounds 5-6) with lower cutoffs. Then maybe a little bit about opponents fought instead of just reading wins/losses.
In fact I'm going to do a little bit because this alleviates my boredom.
ROUNDS 5-6 + PL PLAYOFFS:
SKT:
-Fantasy (7-11) Long PL loss streak, looking terrible right now, decent opponent list except that he lost to Where lol. Stop sucking in PL please Fantasy!
-Bisu (18-3) More or less the PL dominator. Highly varied opponent list, generally high game quality.
-Best (10-3) Very terran-heavy opponent list (2x Flash included) but at least Best is performing consistently against them. Other matchups not really tested.
-Sun (8-4) Decent opponent list with good results. Rookie.
-SoO (13-2) Holy shit. Heavy amount of Protoss on there but decent opponents and fuck, this guy is becoming consistent which is very unlike an SKTzerg. Fucking 86.6%
-s2 (6-7) Not great. Bad ZvT - five losses to Terran on an Protoss-light opponent list. Would be better if he has a more balanced opponent list, probably?
OVERALL: Good depth, as long as you acknowledge that part of their strength comes from avoiding their players' bad matchups. Good sniping will weaken this team significantly - although SKT seems to be good at avoiding that.
KT:
-Flash: (12-10) Record really isn't that great for Rounds 5-6 (mostly due to his consecutive TvP losses, and Jaedong) but his opponent list is completely absurd and his average non-TvP game has been very very good. Flash is still awesome at SC.
-Stats (12-12) The WL hero is heading on a downwards spiral. 0-4 record vs Zerg and only hitting 50% due to two stompings of a rookie Terran in playoffs. The fuck happened to you?
-Action (7-10) Terrible. Most of those wins were in R5, and many of those losses were really really bad.
-Crazy Hydra (9-11) Looking bad (throwing that last game against Light is coloring my judgment a little). Good opponent list.
-Hoejja (9-4) 69% winrate? Won all his ZvPs? Managed to look good against a decent opponent list? Now THIS is a KT zerg I can get behind. Screw the rest of those badly performing chumps.
-Barracks (8-5) Weak opponent list, but good results. Rookie.
OVERALL: Mediocre-bad depth. Best ace you can hope for, but Barracks is a rookie, and everyone else except Hoejja is =<50% and failing. Winning rests on trying to get the inconsistent players to convert advantageous situations into wins, which seems to be a problem given the games I watched.
Okay bored now. Anyway this list isn't the greatest but I think it's a better representative of "depth" than the year-long list, since it takes only more current results.
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lets not fool ourselfs: kt is not a team full of individual league pros and s-class gamers.
but if the coach guesses the matchups well enough, every player on kt can snipe a s-class gamer.
even hoejja.
kt falls and rises with the coach-decisions.
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On July 18 2011 13:51 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 12:11 Ryo wrote:You have a team that only had 5-6 players who had played ANY televised games in their careers before Rd 5, ranked above KT, STX and Oz. Enough said about this list. KT and (especially) OZ really don't have that much depth. STX was a weird one that kind of got cheated by my initial criteria. I assume you're talking about MBC: their weakness is lack of an S-class (or at least A+) ace, because otherwise they do compare reasonably favorably. I still think SKT and CJ are the only real "deep" teams, judging by results (STX ought to be "deep" but apparently can't quite win when it counts). KHAN, Woongjin, WeMade all have the potential but it didn't translate to results this year (except maybe for Woongjin, who's still alive in the playoffs. Anyway, I dun showed my work.
Your charts reinforce the point that MBC is not a deep team. Not having an S-class ace isn't the issue. The main problem is relying on the same 4 players to win games, which is a problem of depth.
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On July 18 2011 11:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:24 BisuDagger wrote:On July 18 2011 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:There's some massive absurdity here. You count CH for Woongjin, but not KT. You count the SKT zergs but don't count Calm or Shine. You count fucking Fantasy despite having the worst slump of his career but don't count Hiya, Kal, or Free. Firebathero has been better than half the players on the list, and Jangbi has been tearing it up hard despite some failures to strong ZvPers. The entire SKT lineup past Bisu is either slumping (fantasy) or snipers (Best, every zerg), which is basically the same with STX and everyone past bogus and shuttle. That you think STX is only the 8th deepest team in proleague is farcical at best. SKT zergs isnt an argument anymore as this season have proven worthy. Fantasy has a great record over the whole season too. Hiya, Kal, and Free did nothing for their teams if you look at the season as a whole. Had Shine played better or his coaches had confidence in playing him the last 2 rounds then he could have had a chance to make that list. Calm, while accumulating 26 wins this season, had 27 losses and a losing record isnt something to be proud of. Firebathero comes in at 50% on this season and he did play well, the only thing I can say is he didnt have a winning record. Jangbi winning a bunch of games recently doesn't mean jack. Most of those were individual league games, but on the season as a whole, did not contribute much for khan at all. I mean honestly, he failed to step up in the playoffs. Summary: calm down lol, its based on his criteria, which makes more sense then your counter arguments. You're defending players that haven't shown up for their teams. See SKT to understand what it means to be a team. It is very pedantic to look at eight months of play and apply it to what's going on right now. Fantasy is not as good as his record, Jangbi is better than his record. STX is deeper than 2 players and it's painfully obvious. There's no sense to a criteria that's looks so far back in the past and so flagrantly disregards recent efforts.
n.Die_soO is on a 13-2 Proleague streak. By.Sun is on an 8-2 tear. At least he has a criteria. You're just cherry-picking information from all over the place. Best was struggling midway through the year too, but picked it up late in the year. The point of a deep team is that somebody is going on a tear when one their aces is struggling. Say you want about SKT zergs, but they are able to go on tears when one of SKT's aces is struggling.
As for S2 vs Jangbi, when the games count in the playoffs, I'll take the guy doing the hydra all-ins vs the guy getting hydra all-ined. S2 essentially won SKT the winner's league final after all.
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Flash still so strong in TvT even with his condition... Kinda sick how he has some 86ish % winrate in TvT this year.
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On July 19 2011 00:49 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:15 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 18 2011 10:24 BisuDagger wrote:On July 18 2011 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:There's some massive absurdity here. You count CH for Woongjin, but not KT. You count the SKT zergs but don't count Calm or Shine. You count fucking Fantasy despite having the worst slump of his career but don't count Hiya, Kal, or Free. Firebathero has been better than half the players on the list, and Jangbi has been tearing it up hard despite some failures to strong ZvPers. The entire SKT lineup past Bisu is either slumping (fantasy) or snipers (Best, every zerg), which is basically the same with STX and everyone past bogus and shuttle. That you think STX is only the 8th deepest team in proleague is farcical at best. SKT zergs isnt an argument anymore as this season have proven worthy. Fantasy has a great record over the whole season too. Hiya, Kal, and Free did nothing for their teams if you look at the season as a whole. Had Shine played better or his coaches had confidence in playing him the last 2 rounds then he could have had a chance to make that list. Calm, while accumulating 26 wins this season, had 27 losses and a losing record isnt something to be proud of. Firebathero comes in at 50% on this season and he did play well, the only thing I can say is he didnt have a winning record. Jangbi winning a bunch of games recently doesn't mean jack. Most of those were individual league games, but on the season as a whole, did not contribute much for khan at all. I mean honestly, he failed to step up in the playoffs. Summary: calm down lol, its based on his criteria, which makes more sense then your counter arguments. You're defending players that haven't shown up for their teams. See SKT to understand what it means to be a team. It is very pedantic to look at eight months of play and apply it to what's going on right now. Fantasy is not as good as his record, Jangbi is better than his record. STX is deeper than 2 players and it's painfully obvious. There's no sense to a criteria that's looks so far back in the past and so flagrantly disregards recent efforts. n.Die_soO is on a 13-2 Proleague streak. By.Sun is on an 8-2 tear. At least he has a criteria. You're just cherry-picking information from all over the place. Best was struggling midway through the year too, but picked it up late in the year. The point of a deep team is that somebody is going on a tear when one their aces is struggling. Say you want about SKT zergs, but they are able to go on tears when one of SKT's aces is struggling. As for S2 vs Jangbi, when the games count in the playoffs, I'll take the guy doing the hydra all-ins vs the guy getting hydra all-ined. S2 essentially won SKT the winner's league final after all.
There is a reason SKT is in first place. Their zergs and sun have stepped it up very recently to pull away from the pack, my problem with the list is how it assumes depth, which is clearly wrong. For instance, Hoejja is not and should not be on the list by his criteria, but he's been kicking ass super recently. Would any team turn down Hoejja in his current condition from their lineup? Absolutely not. The same goes for Jangbi and all the other players I mentioned. The information is cool, but not a good criteria for who is truly adding to the depth right now.
His list has done an excellent job of pointing out the top contributors for the SPL season as a whole. It is obviously not completely true for current depth.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51621 Posts
nvm,my banner needs more editing.
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EPT
