I'm hoping for the old Jangbi to come back to storm his enemies to oblivion.
This group is very interesting: Jangbi is playing like a monster recently. Light is a very deadly player in a group with two zergs. Where is the up and coming CJ zerg whos last game against Fanta got me really impressed. And Hyun is always capable of good games.
Jangbi looking strong in PvZ recently, and if he's back in form, should have really strong PvT. Light won't lose to either zerg, so it remains to be seen if his recent better results in TvP will beat Jangbi for 2-0, or if he advance 2-1. But then again, mediocre/bad zergs always seem to advance somehow, so you never know. -___-;;
Group 2 looks to be much more interesting than group 1. Hope Jangbi 2-0 and Light 2-1. But I think Light has a better chance because it's much easier to some gay ZvP shennanigans.
I think I'll give in to my tiredness and fuck up my sleep schedule once and for all instead of watching. Not a fan of any of the players but Hyun, and he's slumping bad. Go Hyun anyway!
Map is circuit breaker Light in yellow at 7 Where in red at 1 o'clock
where going gas first, pool soon after and a hatch at the nat meanwhile like is still getting his first rax up, almost done
Light going rax expand, CC started at the nat scv arrives in Where's main, 6 zerglings surround the poor worker and rip him apart Where moving up to Lair Light is getting his 2nd rax, he's also putting up a bunker at the nat Where going with hydra den, 2 hatch lurker? speedlings making sure light won't see that den academy in the making, no ebay but a comsats added to both CCs
3 hydras out, handful of lings outside Light's nat
On July 07 2011 19:40 Elroi wrote: Am I the only one who is hyped because Where is playing? I just LOVED the way he played against Fanta. And I'm a CJ fan.
I'm hyped too. In fact, I'm reading the LR from work.
Light has a small army of marines/medics with 1 firebat
3 lurkers reveal themselves, marines back away, lurkers leap frogging closer to light's nat lings ready to back those lurkers up
scan goes off, lurkers in range of the bunker, no range on the marines yet! scvs pulled to repair the bunker, range finished, scan goes off and 1 lurker is picked off more lurkers coming
Light adding 2 more rax (4) and 1 factory
lings and lurkers engaging into the nat, lings are all dead, scvs pulled, 2 lurkers still at the nat bunkers under attack
scan goes off, lings running into the nat, marines take out the remaining 2 lurkers where taking a 3rd at 3 o'clock
Where continuing to throw lings into Light's marine forces ebay is up
Where is taking his 2nd gas and making a spire Light's forces are moving out, starport in the making
Light's forces halfway towards Where's 3rd marines attack the 3rd hatch, there's no defense there. Hatchery goes down without any problems
control tower added to the starport, science facility on the way mutas are out
Light has another force of mnm/tanks at his nat, marines with +1
2 mutas lost as they wonder the map
light bypassing a single lurker and moving towards Where's nat, light marches in and the mutas are blown out of the sky no defense left Where types out well done Light
Hyun taking his gas now as he sends out zerglings to scout for JB's position, he's added a 3rd at 2 o'clock
zergling spots 3 zealots walking out, hyun slams down a sunken 3 zealots at the nat, zerglings trying to buy some time
ohhhh JB by passing the nat and walking straight into the main! hyun going to lair zealots killing a good number of lings behind the mineral lines more zealots on the way, they're waiting at the nat
Meanwhile JB is getting his nexus on at the nat, and he's warping in a core
1 sair falling to scourge Hyun starting his 3rd at 1 o'clock
adun warped in, templar archive coming up meanwhile Hyun is getting his queen's nest
3rd gate warping for JB Hyun moving up to Hive
Hyun adding some sunkens at his nat, he's also getting an evo chamber at his main lings brazenly running along side with the zealots, few lings down
zealots enter into Hyun's nat with dragoons, drones are pulled 1 sunken down, 2 more, another sunken down1 1 zealots remain and run into the main but Hyun has a lot of lings and they take care of the 2 zealots
lurkers protecting that 3rd while a spore and a sunken pop sairs taking a few free shots at overlords, scourge are nearby but they all attack from the same direction and the sairs splash the crap out of them, sairs are free to harass more overlords for the time being
ling spots JB's 3rd going up at 11.5 JB making 4 DTs once again Hyun's batch of scourge attack the sairs from the same direction...
hyun adding spore and sunken to his main 4 dts dropped into the main via shuttle, sunken goes down, lings and lurkers protect the rest of the buildings
This 2BG was not a good opening vs hyun's opening. But Janbi won mentally. Hyun was not expecting a 2BG opening that keeps pumping zealots from cross position. he thought he would go back to econ immediately.
Hyun making a lot of scourge, more than a control groups worth, they're patrolling the 3rd incase of a drop
shuttle is on the move, but not towards the 3rd reaver dropped at the nat, swarm goes up before any action happens hatch is under fire from the reavers ohhh shuttle desperately trying to avoid scourge! huge plague over the protoss force, gets the reaver and a lot of zealots
hyun able to stop the assault at the nat momentarily No 4th from Hyun yet
JB starting his 5th base at 9 o'clock zealots/archon/ht enter into Hyun's 3rd, lurkers/lings stormed reavers dropped to add some damage lurkers come through the nydus with hydras and hold off the impending onslaught
scourge still patrolling around the map hoping to nab a shuttle
JB returning back to the 3rd, this time with an observer, plague over the reavers and a few zealots, eggs are used to block the ramp, but are destroyed due to the arrival of reavers
stream goes down we're back now looks like hyun somehow held off the attack, JB is now attacking the nat reavers still wrecking havok, but JB's army has been plagued, weakening them
JB's forces wondering between hyun's nat and 3rd JB looking to start his 6th base at 7 o'clock, compared to Hyun's 3
JB assaulting the nat, storms going off over the lurkers, there are a lot of hydras, swarms thrown up lings rush in, zealots and archons engage, after a lengthy battle it looks like JB is making some headway
all zerg units are down Hyun types out Well done Jangbi
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2-gate on cross positions where you think Jangbi's BO screwed. Then hyun somehow canceled his 3rd and didn't make enough lings, somehow turning it into a 2-base toss and 2-hatch zerg.
Then Jangbi just walked around with likely double or triple food but didn't have the necessary anti-turtle stuff to kill hyun off. So it turned into a weird TvT like game where one side won but the game still went on for a while.
On July 07 2011 20:21 itsdaniel wrote: in jangbi I believe!!!
haha nice :D
On July 07 2011 20:25 baubo wrote: That was a WTF game.
2-gate on cross positions where you think Jangbi's BO screwed. Then hyun somehow canceled his 3rd and didn't make enough lings, somehow turning it into a 2-base toss and 2-hatch zerg.
Then Jangbi just walked around with likely double or triple food but didn't have the necessary anti-turtle stuff to kill hyun off. So it turned into a weird TvT like game where one side won but the game still went on for a while.
It wasn't even the good type of wtf haha I can't believe it took JB that long to win tbh
On July 07 2011 20:25 baubo wrote: That was a WTF game.
2-gate on cross positions where you think Jangbi's BO screwed. Then hyun somehow canceled his 3rd and didn't make enough lings, somehow turning it into a 2-base toss and 2-hatch zerg.
Then Jangbi just walked around with likely double or triple food but didn't have the necessary anti-turtle stuff to kill hyun off. So it turned into a weird TvT like game where one side won but the game still went on for a while.
It wasn't even the good type of wtf haha I can't believe it took JB that long to win tbh
There is nothing you can (or need to) do to win faster if the opponent decides to stall with Mass Sunkens, Swarms and Lurkers.
Light adds 2 more factories (4), he's also getting his armory up
first arbiter is out, Light getting his starport up
2 more gates warping in (7) small group of vultures engage with the protoss force, 2 go down, the rest of the vultures flee
Light getting his 3rd base going at 12 o'clock forge warping in, probe sent to 6 o'clock where it warps in a 3rd nexus
arbiter on the move Light throwing up a lot of turrets arbiter flies through the turrets, over the CC and recalls a large force of goons/zealots tanks brought into the main, scvs running away goons/zealots take out the comsat, first vessel is out zealots running into the tanks, they splash themselves
CC forced to lift, vultures run in, mines are laid and the rest of the goons melt
5th base going up for JB at 6.5 arbiters get emp'ed again? or maybe they narrowly avoided it
sneaky science vessel trying to emp the arbiters again, and it's successful!
light almost mined out at his main, but he's established a 4th at 3 o'clock 6th base warping in for JB at 9 o'clock
arbiter flies in, stasis over a good clump of light's army, zealots running in with goons, storms over some tanks, it's not enough though, JB backs away
light's army is getting stormed again, vessel falls with a few tanks JB with something like 13 gates
Light is slowly advancing his army, his tank line is deep JB engaging once more, he doesn't have enough of an army to do much damage, zealots run in only to be blown away
JB replenishing his forces, he's looking for a way to approach that metal army, few of his zealots are killed off
arbiter recall at 3 o'clock forces the CC to lift, meanwhile JB's 6 o'clock is being shelled
recall again at 12 o'clock! CC floated but it's focused down by the goons! Light not mining? his main is mined out, so is his nat I think
ahhh stream goes down once more
and we're back, tanks are now evading the SW, JB has 2 bases there. his goons are waiting for the perfect opportunity to attack, goons coming from the bottom, zealots coming from the top
Light not looking good at all, his forces are all gone, his eco is rubbish atm JB is a commanding lead Light types out Jangbi advances 2:0!
Beautiful PvT play, totally abusing the mobility advantage arbiters gives. I thought he was in a really icky spot in the midgame, but it didn't matter.
After the recall, Jangbi gathered his forces at Light's 3rd, which had something like 3 tanks and 3 turrets plus a depot wall.
Zealots made a hole through the depot, got into the tanks. Then when Light decided to block the zealots from his tanks with SCV wall, a mine drag killed ALL OF LIGHTS SCVS at the 3rd. Light reinforced, but Jangbi's speedlots reinforcements somehow got there faster, and all the tanks reinforcement died with jangbi still with a few goons. Light had no choice but to give up the 3rd.
On July 07 2011 21:04 baubo wrote: Btw, for those whose stream went down,
After the recall, Jangbi gathered his forces at Light's 3rd, which had something like 3 tanks and 3 turrets plus a depot wall.
Zealots made a hole through the depot, got into the tanks. Then when Light decided to block the zealots from his tanks with SCV wall, a mine drag killed ALL OF LIGHTS SCVS at the 3rd. Light reinforced, but Jangbi's speedlots reinforcements somehow got there faster, and all the tanks reinforcement died with jangbi still with a few goons. Light had no choice but to give up the 3rd.
And the game was effectively over at that point.
Damn it looks like I missed a huge MINE DAEBAAAAAAK !
Would have Light been able to win the game if there hadn't been this huge mine drag ?
Where in yellow at 5 o'clock Hyun in red at 11 o'clock
overlords headed in the wrong direction both players going hatch first, pools and gas going up
Where making a lair meanwhile Hyun is making some lings he's got close to a control gorups worth, they're headed straight for Where's base!
Where doesn't have nearly enough lings to counter this, nor does he have a sunken more lings pop for where and he manages to hold off the attack sunken going up Hyun making more speedlings, he's back on the attack again where matching the ling numbers, his sunken is now up
where on the counter attack, he gets 3 lings into Hyun's main, they take out 2 drones
stream skips a head, both players have their spires up now where making scourge first, they enter into the nat and main, they fly over the eggs stream is choppy
hyun has his mutas out, they're being chased by scourge, mutas take a few hits but they live to fight another day
Where takes out a slowlord with his mutas, 2 in fact. Where sets his eyes on Hyun's nat, hyun brings in his mutas and they battle it out Hyun loses all his mutas and types out Well done Where
now he has to face a TvZ beast
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Dunno if you can call what Hyun is going through as ''slump'' seeing that he was never really good to begin with.
Hate on MBC players all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he's performed much poorer than before. Go check the dictionary if you don't understand the definition of "slumping".
On July 07 2011 21:25 GTR wrote: also since when did skyhigh get lasik? please don't tell me he's one of those lamers who just wears the frame of glasses.
lol asians wouldn't do that. asians hate glasses. it's those damn western hipsters
On July 07 2011 21:25 GTR wrote: also since when did skyhigh get lasik? please don't tell me he's one of those lamers who just wears the frame of glasses.
Can't remember whether it's Lasek or Lasik but he got it during the off-season. He still wears real glasses, I think his eyesight was really bad to begin with.
On July 07 2011 21:25 GTR wrote: also since when did skyhigh get lasik? please don't tell me he's one of those lamers who just wears the frame of glasses.
Can't remember whether it's Lasek or Lasik but he got it during the off-season. He still wears real glasses, I think his eyesight was really bad to begin with.
cant lasik cure up to like a -10.00 grade of myopia?
Dunno if you can call what Hyun is going through as ''slump'' seeing that he was never really good to begin with.
Hate on MBC players all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he's performed much poorer than before. Go check the dictionary if you don't understand the definition of "slumping".
Tell me, when did this slump begin? Because I haven't noticed any deterioration in performance by Hyun at all, he's just as bad as he's always been.
And this isn't me ''hating on MBC players'', you might notice I'm rooting for Light here.
Final game of the night will this be a one side beat down?
Map is Monte Cristo
Where in yellow at 11 o'clock Light in brown at 5 o'clock
drone moving out, meanwhile Light sends out an scv scout
drone starts a hatch at 1 o'clock scv arrives inside the main, doesn't see a hatch at the nat or a pool at this point Where makes a hatch at his nat, 3 hatch before pool
Light has a rax made, he's started a CC at the nat
Dunno if you can call what Hyun is going through as ''slump'' seeing that he was never really good to begin with.
Hate on MBC players all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he's performed much poorer than before. Go check the dictionary if you don't understand the definition of "slumping".
Tell me, when did this slump begin? Because I haven't noticed any deterioration in performance by Hyun at all, he's just as bad as he's always been.
And this isn't me ''hating in MBC players'', you might notice I'm rooting for Light here.
He's definitely gotten a lot worse. Back a while ago when he had glasses, he was like Forgg where he's still fucking terrible but good enough to scrap wins here and there.
Dunno if you can call what Hyun is going through as ''slump'' seeing that he was never really good to begin with.
Hate on MBC players all you want. Doesn't change the fact that he's performed much poorer than before. Go check the dictionary if you don't understand the definition of "slumping".
Tell me, when did this slump begin? Because I haven't noticed any deterioration in performance by Hyun at all, he's just as bad as he's always been.
And this isn't me ''hating on MBC players'', you might notice I'm rooting for Light here.
pool goes up along with the gas light sending his scouting scv over towards 1 o'clock where he'll find a hatch with 2 drones mining minerals, 1 of which becomes a sunken
Light getting his first factory up, meanwhile Where moves up to Lair Light going 2 port
On July 07 2011 21:32 Motivate wrote: 2port wraiths
light you cheesy bastard :D
Natural mineral line is quite easy to harass actually. I can't remember anyone going 2 port wraith on this map yet, but I could definitely see it as a viable build here.
Where opting for a spire 2nd rax in the making, both starports pumping out wraiths, first 2 wraiths kill 2 overlords, make that 3, no 4 scourge are out and looking for them wraiths ebay finished and light starts erecting a few turrets
Where making some spores around his bases
wraiths nab another overlord, mutas trying to combat that wraith threat, but marines make it hard Where taking a 4th base at 7 o'clock where continues to lose more overlords
Why does Light do this build last match against inferior opponent? Seems like a possible build to fuck-up rather than just playing safe when you're top TvZ vs a relative noob.
On July 07 2011 21:37 infinity2k9 wrote: Why does Light do this build last match against inferior opponent? Seems like a possible build to fuck-up rather than just playing safe when you're top TvZ vs a relative noob.
it's a strong opening to quickly transition into fast 2port vessels which he's doing right now
5 sunkens protecting that ramp leading to Where's nat science facility finished, control towers added to starports
wraiths/marines tear apart that hatchery at 5 o'clock, where is back on 3 bases
marines making their way towards Where's nat mutas harassing the nat mineral line, they move into the main where wraiths engage, marines helping out the wraiths, first vessel pops out but Where isn't able to snipe it
another overlord falls to wraiths mutas enter into the main, they're peppered by marines, 1 muta falls, the rest bug out
queen's nest finished, Hive morphing meanwhile mutas continue their fight with the marines Light has 2 dropships irradiate on the mutas, where splitting very quickly
dropships almost running into the mutas, irradiate! where a little slower this time to split them up dropships dropping the 3rd, by passing the sunkens, drones flee and the mutas arrive to defend but they're shot out of the sky by marines/wraiths
sunkens holding the ramp so far at the 3rd, marine numbers greatly reduced Where starting his 4th once more at 5 o'clock
Ultralisks cavern made Light has his 3rd up at 2.5, his marine/med army is headed towards Where's nat, lead by vessels scourge nab a vessel d-matrix on 2 marines as they charge forward, scourge nab a few more vessels sunkens being taken down by marines, 2 more remain, drones pulled
another drop at the 3rd, where loses his 4th light is everywhere, his attack at the nat has failed though ultralisk is out, no mining at the 3rd for Where
On July 07 2011 21:40 infinity2k9 wrote: This game is just weird. Why attack there Light and not main? What is Where's plan at all?
Nothing wrong with attacking there, but Light chosen to run into a billion sunkens he had no right attacking.
Where's plan seems to be turtle until ultralisks where Light's mostly marine/wraith force can't do enough damage fast enough to stop them from killing everything.
Battlecruisers. I guess at this stage of the game if you can get enough of them and upgrade attack, scourge don't do shit and you basically walk through the whole zerg army.
Ultras dropped in Light's main are blocked by a perfect sim-city and do little to no damage ! 5 supplies down, but as much damage as we could have expected
2 battle cruisers head out meanwhile Where has a decent number of ultralisks, which he loads up into overlords
dropships on the move overlords dropping ultralisks inside Light's main meanwhile at Where's nat, a marine force is attacking the sunkens, there are many ultralisks there though, they hold off the marines, but the drones are all dying to BCs
simcity is stopping the ultralisks at light's main from attacking marines back to where's nat, marines are being slaughtered by ultralisks
2 dropships are blown away by scourge, light still has ultralisks inside his main taking down depots, marines finally arrive and kill them
Light's 3rd is under attack, his scvs are killed by lings/1 ultra
On July 07 2011 21:48 Arkqn wrote: Is Where making a comeback or what...
No.
Light playing weirdly/sloppy like that though could come back to haunt him against a better opponent. I'm sure he just felt in control and played it weirdly for the fans, but it definitely could have gone wrong against someone like Jaedong with very good awareness and scourge control. Still. Bad map.
light's 4th is forced to lift as ultralisks appear, irradiate on the ultralisks
light with 3 battle cruisers moving out meanwhile 1 overlord drops a handful of lings, battle cruisers are on top of it though, 1 depot down
marines/meds start attacking Where's nat again, no defiler in sight ultralisks die and this might be it hatch at the nat goes down, the other buildings are now under fire
Where doesn't have nearly enough to defend against Light's numbers spire goes down too should be GG soon, main is now under fire, more buildings being razed drones are dead in the main, Where trying to counter with lings
Where types out Well done Light
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On July 07 2011 21:52 Holgerius wrote: Yay, both Zergs out!
That's a terrible attitude. You should just be happy that the best players got through, no matter what race they play. In this case, both the zergs were terrible though.
On July 07 2011 21:52 Holgerius wrote: Yay, both Zergs out!
That's a terrible attitude. You should just be happy that the best players got through, no matter what race they play. In this case, both the zergs were terrible though.
Listen, the only non-Zerg player in the last two MSL Ro4s has been Flash, once (1/8). I don't enjoy ZvZ very much. Forgive me for not wanting all these mediocre Zergs to infest the leagues.
It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
On July 07 2011 22:31 Lightwip wrote: Less Zergs this MSL... Now we just need Flash out and it can potentially be a pretty cool MSL.
How about a Flash vs Bisu final? Couldn't that be sweet?
I prefer a Bisu vs Jaedong finals, it plays more to my Beesuit's strength :p. Despite the fact that Zergs have so many silly tricks vs P its not even funny.
On July 07 2011 22:31 Lightwip wrote: Less Zergs this MSL... Now we just need Flash out and it can potentially be a pretty cool MSL.
How about a Flash vs Bisu final? Couldn't that be sweet?
I prefer a Bisu vs Jaedong finals, it plays more to my Beesuit's strength :p. Despite the fact that Zergs have so many silly tricks vs P its not even funny.
On July 07 2011 22:31 Lightwip wrote: Less Zergs this MSL... Now we just need Flash out and it can potentially be a pretty cool MSL.
How about a Flash vs Bisu final? Couldn't that be sweet?
I prefer a Bisu vs Jaedong finals, it plays more to my Beesuit's strength :p. Despite the fact that Zergs have so many silly tricks vs P its not even funny.
Oh and my sister thinks that Bisu is super hot :3
But imagine what a glorious moment it would be for Bisu if he took down Flash. ^__^
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Clearly zergs should just intentionally stop winning games against non-zergs in the MSL. That would make everybody happy. I mean, we wouldn't want to best players to win any titles, would we?
Direct your anger at somebody who can actually do anything about the lack of non-zergs in the last few MSLs, such as the non-zergs. Hope that the non-zergs do better, rather than the zergs doing worse.
im just sick of so many dropkick zergs that cant zvt making it far in the msl (not talking about zero or jaedong or zergs of that caliber, mind you.) i like a good racial balance because i hate mirror maps of any kind, even if its between two top level players like stork and bisu.
besides, itd be nice to see more protoss taking titles
On July 07 2011 22:31 Lightwip wrote: Less Zergs this MSL... Now we just need Flash out and it can potentially be a pretty cool MSL.
How about a Flash vs Bisu final? Couldn't that be sweet?
Of course Bisu beats Flash to bring the balance to Protoss and Brood War world will be the glorious day for everyone. All good people in the world are looking forward to that day, and it is coming- the (finally) end of Flash (read:evil) and the final achievement of the hero-Bisu who has passed all the ordeal of life to become the savior (TRUE savior).
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Clearly zergs should just intentionally stop winning games against non-zergs in the MSL. That would make everybody happy. I mean, we wouldn't want to best players to win any titles, would we?
Direct your anger at somebody who can actually do anything about the lack of non-zergs in the last few MSLs, such as the non-zergs. Hope that the non-zergs do better, rather than the zergs doing worse.
I have never said I want the Zergs to throw games or to fail horribly with their own game. I DO want the non-Zergs to step up their game. You're reading way too much into how I expressed myself.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
Seeing how the protoss race perform so well in proleague, it's definitely the players and sometimes it could be the maps. It's by no means the race itself.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
Like half of your posts contain some sort of imbalance-whine.
Protoss should have a gold the past OSL season, except Stork decided he should use the same freaking builds and be "standard" for the freaking finals against a player with a think tank behind him. I have never been so disappointed in Stork as that finals. I could stand him playing WOW, losing to random noobs in the PL, and dying all sorts of cheese, but that finals against Fantasy was just horrible to watch as a Stork fan.
In addition, why is it that Bisu and Best never get time to practice for the SLs, and Fantasy gets new custom builds made for him all the time? Dude has a whole bunch of anti-player builds(notably against Stork and Jaedong) while Bisu and Best used 2-base arbiter PvT for seemingly forever. Bisu always seem to use the safest, most boringly standard builds all the time until his opponents can counter him. And when Bisu's on his game, he gets maps like Tears of the Moon to kill him.
I've always thought Bisu given enough practice and team support can achieve Jaedong/Flash status. But alas, he always spends his time getting PL wins for T1, practicing just those few maps and few MUs like a good little boy. Stork OTOH is more of a luck-based contender. He's simply not good enough at PvZ. He'll win with certain cute builds or if the game somehow last for 20 minutes and his macro game kicks in. But in general, he's an underdog against even mediocrities like Roro.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
SPL 2010-2011
TvZ: 100-90 (52.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 114-109 (51.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 120-94 (56.1%) [ Games ]
On July 08 2011 01:29 baubo wrote: In addition, why is it that Bisu and Best never get time to practice for the SLs, and Fantasy gets new custom builds made for him all the time? Dude has a whole bunch of anti-player builds(notably against Stork and Jaedong) while Bisu and Best used 2-base arbiter PvT for seemingly forever. And then Bisu moved on to just copy the safest, standard builds all the time until his opponents can counter him. And when Bisu's on his game, he gets maps like Tears of the Moon to kill him.
I've always thought Bisu given enough practice and team support can achieve Jaedong/Flash status. But alas, he always spends his time getting PL wins for T1, practicing just those few maps and few MUs like a good little boy. Stork OTOH is more of a luck-based contender. He's simply not good enough at PvZ. He'll win with certain cute builds or if the game somehow last for 20 minutes and his macro game kicks in. But in general, he's an underdog against even mediocrities like Roro.
Because Bisu and Best are not nearly as creative as Jaedong and Flash, nor do they have a similarly ingenious coach for their respective race the way Oov has fantasy. I think it's preposterous to assume that they get less time to practice for starleagues than Fantasy -- I mean, it seems you're just assuming that based on their results. It's not that Fantasy gets to shirk PL performance, it's literally that he just has far superior coaching behind him. Oov's the terran coach, not the Bisu coach.
That said, even if Bisu is somehow worse in leagues because of PL, nothing prevents you from being great at both, ala Flash last year and Jaedong the year before that. I truly believe it's either because he is not creative enough, or the protoss race lacks more innovation and builds and tricks to create.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Clearly zergs should just intentionally stop winning games against non-zergs in the MSL. That would make everybody happy. I mean, we wouldn't want to best players to win any titles, would we?
Direct your anger at somebody who can actually do anything about the lack of non-zergs in the last few MSLs, such as the non-zergs. Hope that the non-zergs do better, rather than the zergs doing worse.
I have never said I want the Zergs to throw games or to fail horribly with their own game. I DO want the non-Zergs to step up their game. You're reading way too much into how I expressed myself.
On July 07 2011 21:52 Holgerius wrote: Yay, both Zergs out!
This is a negative attitude against zerg, instead of being a positive attitude towards Light and Jangbi. I don't think I'm reading too much into it. You don't like ZvZ and you hope they do poorly because you want the non-zergs to be better represented in starleagues. You should hope the non-zergs up their level of play instead. That's a much more positive attitude to have. That's all I'm saying.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
Like half of your posts contain some sort of imbalance-whine.
Like half of your posts are uselessly fellating Flash in some way instead of any actual discussion as well. The game ISN'T perfectly balanced and at this point in the games lifespan where it's being played at such a high level the intricacies become more clear. Like White winning 55% over Black in Chess. Unless you have a different explanation for Protoss failure which isn't simply 'they all suck'.
On July 08 2011 01:29 baubo wrote: In addition, why is it that Bisu and Best never get time to practice for the SLs, and Fantasy gets new custom builds made for him all the time? Dude has a whole bunch of anti-player builds(notably against Stork and Jaedong) while Bisu and Best used 2-base arbiter PvT for seemingly forever. And then Bisu moved on to just copy the safest, standard builds all the time until his opponents can counter him. And when Bisu's on his game, he gets maps like Tears of the Moon to kill him.
I've always thought Bisu given enough practice and team support can achieve Jaedong/Flash status. But alas, he always spends his time getting PL wins for T1, practicing just those few maps and few MUs like a good little boy. Stork OTOH is more of a luck-based contender. He's simply not good enough at PvZ. He'll win with certain cute builds or if the game somehow last for 20 minutes and his macro game kicks in. But in general, he's an underdog against even mediocrities like Roro.
Because Bisu and Best are not nearly as creative as Jaedong and Flash, nor do they have a similarly ingenious coach for their respective race the way Oov has fantasy. I think it's preposterous to assume that they get less time to practice for starleagues than Fantasy -- I mean, it seems you're just assuming that based on their results. It's not that Fantasy gets to shirk PL performance, it's literally that he just has far superior coaching behind him. Oov's the terran coach, not the Bisu coach.
Actually, Bisu has stated a lot in interviews that he doesn't get to practice for SLs much. A lot of T1 players talk about how the team focuses almost exclusively on the proleague.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
SPL 2010-2011
TvZ: 100-90 (52.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 114-109 (51.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 120-94 (56.1%) [ Games ]
I'm not talking statistics at all. I'm talking the highest level of play. Do stats of RO16 Starleagues and above or something to be relevant to what i'm talking about, even then it doesn't show what happens IN THE GAMES. Because your stats include loads of games that have nothing to do with the peak of the game at all. I know these things from watching the game and seeing with my eyes the effects, the lack of surprise options P has in PvZ, the way Terrans can now deal with Protoss 'tricks' far more efficiently.
Zerg and Terran simcities being perfected (P simcities are better too but to lesser help). Watch how any decent Terran cleans up a recall in the back of their main within seconds now. See them get away with Rax CC. See Zerg's easily do 4 base turtle and overwhelm tosses (they are improving at countering this though).
You can talk in purely statistics of course but what is the point? The number of matchup 'specialists' has always shown the balance clearly. So many PvZ 'specialists' and TvZ specialists. Not as many PvT specialists though prehaps, because it's clear at the highest level P doesn't have some innate advantage over the best few Terrans (which they are almost going to have to face at some point, otherwise it's just zergs which they have a disadvantage to).
Still saying all that, Stork definitely should have had a Starleague and was really heavily countered hard without even thinking it could be the case. Again. So maybe we just do need some smarter top P players. When you see a supposedly A-class P like Stats get rolled by a simple hydra bust in the WL finals it makes you wonder about things.
On July 08 2011 01:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Pretty much everyone says that. People only get time off when they're deep in a league, which obviously isn't a thing for Bisu recently.
Unless you have clear evidence as to how you re viewing the matter in the right angle and the rest of us (not everyone, but many) are not, i will prefer to take Bisu's word as the truth, that he somewhat resent the fact that he was not given enough time to prepare for his individual leagues. I dont see any point in reading between the lines when there was no reason to do so in the first place.
As for the Protoss matter, from what i discuss with a friend of mine, it is probably that the Protoss race doesnt reward preparation as well as T or Z, or they simply arent designed to have so many funky tricks. Thats why they do well in PL where there are only 2-3 days to prepare for any given match, but falter when each sides are given more time to prepare, like in the Starleagues.
Plus i also agree with Infinity that PvT is the most balanced match-ups across all 3 non-mirrors. Good T looks like then are on even footings w Ps, but good Ps (think Stork, among others) always look like they are on the back foot vs Z. I know TL has many Z players that think ZvT is the hardest non-mirror, but imho, PvZ is worse.
^ I have always felt that protoss only has an advantage against terran if they can surprise them. I guess this happens much more often in PL than in the SLs.
But hey, Jangbi is back now!
Edit: I remember Bisu saying something like maps being good for protoss in the beginning in PvT and then becoming harder to play on for protoss as the maps get figured out..
Honestly I think the problem with protoss is that they lack build diversity. All protoss has is early game cheese, but that is easily defendible these days. They don't have the powerful mid-game timing builds that T and Z have, which makes them weak in BoX series where builds and mindgames are the key factor.
On July 08 2011 01:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Pretty much everyone says that. People only get time off when they're deep in a league, which obviously isn't a thing for Bisu recently.
Unless you have clear evidence as to how you re viewing the matter in the right angle and the rest of us (not everyone, but many) are not, i will prefer to take Bisu's word as the truth, that he somewhat resent the fact that he was not given enough time to prepare for his individual leagues. I dont see any point in reading between the lines when there was no reason to do so in the first place.
That wasn't my point. My point was that EVERY player is told by their coaches to prioritize proleague over individual leagues, and the vast majority of players mention that in their interviews. Bisu isn't the only one. Said players get a waiver when they make a deep run: Bisu included, back in Clubday. Bisu shouldn't be considered special in this matter because he's Bisu. It's so dismissive of other players to the point of insult.
Plus i also agree with Infinity that PvT is the most balanced match-ups across all 3 non-mirrors. Good T looks like then are on even footings w Ps, but good Ps (think Stork, among others) always look like they are on the back foot vs Z. I know TL has many Z players that think ZvT is the hardest non-mirror, but imho, PvZ is worse.
There's practically nothing to prove this, though, when ZvT has statistically always been the worst. And in spite of this, the game is still dominated by zergs. I think that is the bigger problem. It's not that PvZ is the worst matchup, it is that Protosses are exposed and forced to play more of their weaker matchups than the other two because there's so many zergs qualifying and succeeding in starleagues: This is because there are no consistent mid level terrans combating the mid level zergs. Terran has been in a long slump of solid newcomers, or even mediocre players who get good draws, the best they have is, what, Bogus?
On July 08 2011 01:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Pretty much everyone says that. People only get time off when they're deep in a league, which obviously isn't a thing for Bisu recently.
Unless you have clear evidence as to how you re viewing the matter in the right angle and the rest of us (not everyone, but many) are not, i will prefer to take Bisu's word as the truth, that he somewhat resent the fact that he was not given enough time to prepare for his individual leagues. I dont see any point in reading between the lines when there was no reason to do so in the first place.
That wasn't my point. My point was that EVERY player is told by their coaches to prioritize proleague over individual leagues, and the vast majority of players mention that in their interviews. Bisu isn't the only one. Said players get a waiver when they make a deep run: Bisu included, back in Clubday. Bisu shouldn't be considered special in this matter because he's Bisu. It's so dismissive of other players to the point of insult.
Plus i also agree with Infinity that PvT is the most balanced match-ups across all 3 non-mirrors. Good T looks like then are on even footings w Ps, but good Ps (think Stork, among others) always look like they are on the back foot vs Z. I know TL has many Z players that think ZvT is the hardest non-mirror, but imho, PvZ is worse.
There's practically nothing to prove this, though, when ZvT has statistically always been the worst. And in spite of this, the game is still dominated by zergs. I think that is the bigger problem. It's not that PvZ is the worst matchup, it is that Protosses are exposed and forced to play more of their weaker matchups than the other two because there's so many zergs qualifying and succeeding in starleagues: This is because there are no consistent mid level terrans combating the mid level zergs. Terran has been in a long slump of solid newcomers, or even mediocre players who get good draws, the best they have is, what, Bogus?
Yes Terran is the hardest mechanically and this effects and joins into everything i say as well. While i was talking about the highest level play Terran has equal footing with P it's only a few players capable then a giant gap of non-capable players. All of the things we are saying are partially coming together to create a tough situation where Zergs have it easier in the leagues.
On July 08 2011 02:09 Elroi wrote: ^ I have always felt that protoss only has an advantage against terran if they can surprise them. I guess this happens much more often in PL than in the SLs.
But hey, Jangbi is back now!
Edit: I remember Bisu saying something like maps being good for protoss in the beginning in PvT and then becoming harder to play on for protoss as the maps get figured out..
Let's just keep in mind this means the highest level of PvT though. At any other level it's hard for the T to even manage a good enough push while the P laughs and a-moves while macroing another round of units. Even lower A-team high B-team games can look like this. See Wooki vs some T noob the other day on a T favoured map. Wooki never looked like losing.
It's Flash and a few other players that have these invincible defences, perfect scouting to surprises, perfect arbiter cleanups, then a mech ball that's almost impossible to beat. BeSt style can do it (on the right map) but look what happens when BeSt doesn't get his favoured game situation (vs Flash on Fortress) he gets ripped apart. In a Bo5 it's Terran who will likely have the tricks up their sleeves. Even if you pull off one win Bisu on Aztec style, there's barely any other surprise builds or trickiness midgame that works against the top T's (which really only means Fantasy/Flash sometimes HiyA and the odd game from every other top T when they pull off everything with no mistakes).
This reminds me of that HiyA v Free series. How refreshing and crazy overall. I think imperfect play is more interesting and maybe its not so great the mechanical levels reached. I don't like seeing games won or lost on single errors, i like errors all the times to make up for it.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
SPL 2010-2011
TvZ: 100-90 (52.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 114-109 (51.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 120-94 (56.1%) [ Games ]
I'm not talking statistics at all. I'm talking the highest level of play. Do stats of RO16 Starleagues and above or something to be relevant to what i'm talking about, even then it doesn't show what happens IN THE GAMES. Because your stats include loads of games that have nothing to do with the peak of the game at all. I know these things from watching the game and seeing with my eyes the effects, the lack of surprise options P has in PvZ, the way Terrans can now deal with Protoss 'tricks' far more efficiently.
Zerg and Terran simcities being perfected (P simcities are better too but to lesser help). Watch how any decent Terran cleans up a recall in the back of their main within seconds now. See them get away with Rax CC. See Zerg's easily do 4 base turtle and overwhelm tosses (they are improving at countering this though).
You can talk in purely statistics of course but what is the point? The number of matchup 'specialists' has always shown the balance clearly. So many PvZ 'specialists' and TvZ specialists. Not as many PvT specialists though prehaps, because it's clear at the highest level P doesn't have some innate advantage over the best few Terrans (which they are almost going to have to face at some point, otherwise it's just zergs which they have a disadvantage to).
Still saying all that, Stork definitely should have had a Starleague and was really heavily countered hard without even thinking it could be the case. Again. So maybe we just do need some smarter top P players. When you see a supposedly A-class P like Stats get rolled by a simple hydra bust in the WL finals it makes you wonder about things.
About Protoss "tricks..." I seem to recall a thread where someone had mentioned a korean commentator throwing ideas about PvT back between 09-Present.
He had mentioned things like placing cannons in awkward spots to catch the terran offguard, making more use of the lategame proxy (robo,stargate, templar) and of course map pools.
What about hallucination, or massing up late game scouts with the speed upgrade and adding them into the ground army or use them to snipe important targets similar to mutas (similar to carriers...maybe just use carriers). Then, there's recall options, it could be used to pull units home instead of staying with the army or even ramming an arbiter in the middle of a push and recalling speedlots/templar there.
There's also mass shuttles, as seen from Shy recently.
Hell, proxy gates and go for a timing push.
There's plenty of things Protoss users can attempt to work into the gameplay. Not all may be viable but it's worth attempting. People thought queens were bogus at first and now they appear semi-regularly.
On July 08 2011 01:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Pretty much everyone says that. People only get time off when they're deep in a league, which obviously isn't a thing for Bisu recently.
Unless you have clear evidence as to how you re viewing the matter in the right angle and the rest of us (not everyone, but many) are not, i will prefer to take Bisu's word as the truth, that he somewhat resent the fact that he was not given enough time to prepare for his individual leagues. I dont see any point in reading between the lines when there was no reason to do so in the first place.
That wasn't my point. My point was that EVERY player is told by their coaches to prioritize proleague over individual leagues, and the vast majority of players mention that in their interviews. Bisu isn't the only one. Said players get a waiver when they make a deep run: Bisu included, back in Clubday. Bisu shouldn't be considered special in this matter because he's Bisu. It's so dismissive of other players to the point of insult.
Plus i also agree with Infinity that PvT is the most balanced match-ups across all 3 non-mirrors. Good T looks like then are on even footings w Ps, but good Ps (think Stork, among others) always look like they are on the back foot vs Z. I know TL has many Z players that think ZvT is the hardest non-mirror, but imho, PvZ is worse.
There's practically nothing to prove this, though, when ZvT has statistically always been the worst. And in spite of this, the game is still dominated by zergs. I think that is the bigger problem. It's not that PvZ is the worst matchup, it is that Protosses are exposed and forced to play more of their weaker matchups than the other two because there's so many zergs qualifying and succeeding in starleagues: This is because there are no consistent mid level terrans combating the mid level zergs. Terran has been in a long slump of solid newcomers, or even mediocre players who get good draws, the best they have is, what, Bogus?
Yes Terran is the hardest mechanically and this effects and joins into everything i say as well. While i was talking about the highest level play Terran has equal footing with P it's only a few players capable then a giant gap of non-capable players. All of the things we are saying are partially coming together to create a tough situation where Zergs have it easier in the leagues.
You keep saying the top terrans are great and TvP, but this is true for all progamers. Bisu is good at PvZ, Stork has beaten many a zerg in his title berths, Kal and Free did it recently when they were the best protosses last year. I legitimately think the only difference is Flash and Jaedong are special players, more than anything. I mean, what had terran done before Flash in 2010? 2 year drought since ForGG's MSL, it was looking like terran was by far the weakest race in modern times because Zergs had figured ZvT out and Protosses were surging.
On July 08 2011 07:01 Jumperer wrote: Bisu doesn't win in starleagues because he make excuses too much. It's always the map, it's always the practice, it's always the matchup. In contrast, Look at the attitude of savior, flash, nada, boxer, iloveoov and jaedong. They never, if rarely ever, make an excuse when they win or lose. If something isn't fair, they suck it up and find a way to overcome the odds and make it fair. other champions in other sports have the same quality. For instance, Michael Jordan had the flu and still dominated in NBA final. Tiger woods won a U.S. Open on one leg and played hurt the entire career.
Bisu just doesn't have the attitude of the champion. His mechanics is top class but you need more than that to overcome jaedong and flash. He dominates in proleague because in proleague teams can't really prepare a special build. It's all mechanic against mechanic most of the time. In starleagues, players can easily prepare for bisu's style since he always play the most modern safe build.
Regardless, I consider bisu as the greatest protoss of all time with his 3 MSLs.
Whatever happened to those "attitude" that defeated the dominant Maestro? Or what happened to the attitude that defeated the Mighty and Commanding Twin cannons of KHAN?
The protoss line has produced some of the most consistent players of all time. Reach held up his career for the longest time ever including the achievement of being the lone protoss of one StarLeague and was the first player ever to achieve 100 wins (process that spand several years for him). Stork may not be so hot, but he's considered one of the most consistent players of all time. He's been a powerhouse and feared player reaching all the way back from the SKY ProLeague era. They may not be winning the everything but their lifespan is pretty long.
On July 08 2011 07:31 Neo7 wrote: The protoss line has produced some of the most consistent players of all time. Reach held up his career for the longest time ever including the achievement of being the lone protoss of one StarLeague and was the first player ever to achieve 100 wins (process that spand several years for him). Stork may not be so hot, but he's considered one of the most consistent players of all time. He's been a powerhouse and feared player reaching all the way back from the SKY ProLeague era. They may not be winning the everything but their lifespan is pretty long.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Clearly zergs should just intentionally stop winning games against non-zergs in the MSL. That would make everybody happy. I mean, we wouldn't want to best players to win any titles, would we?
Direct your anger at somebody who can actually do anything about the lack of non-zergs in the last few MSLs, such as the non-zergs. Hope that the non-zergs do better, rather than the zergs doing worse.
Straight up. I don't like Zergs dominating OSL either, but what do you expect? Should Kespa just automatically advance Terrans and Toss?
On July 08 2011 07:01 Jumperer wrote: Bisu doesn't win in starleagues because he make excuses too much. It's always the map, it's always the practice, it's always the matchup. In contrast, Look at the attitude of savior, flash, nada, boxer, iloveoov and jaedong. They never, if rarely ever, make an excuse when they win or lose. If something isn't fair, they suck it up and find a way to overcome the odds and make it fair. other champions in other sports have the same quality. For instance, Michael Jordan had the flu and still dominated in NBA final. Tiger woods won a U.S. Open on one leg and played hurt the entire career.
Bisu just doesn't have the attitude of the champion. His mechanics is top class but you need more than that to overcome jaedong and flash. He dominates in proleague because in proleague teams can't really prepare a special build. It's all mechanic against mechanic most of the time. In starleagues, players can easily prepare for bisu's style since he always play the most modern safe build.
Regardless, I consider bisu as the greatest protoss of all time with his 3 MSLs.
Whatever happened to those "attitude" that defeated the dominant Maestro? Or what happened to the attitude that defeated the Mighty and Commanding Twin cannons of KHAN?
Bisu build destroyed savior. Stork and jangbi are silver medal artists and they both said in an old interview that they approach bo5 and bo3 by playing normally like they would play in proleague. The coaching in the KHAN house is pretty bad. Stork didn't win an OSL until he starts playing crazy.
Just read bisu's interviews and you can see how emo he is. He complains about everything and has absolutely no confidence at all. Jaedong and flash is always in both MSL and OSL and they never lose to scrubs. Why is that? because they believe that they are the best. I'm Lee mother fucking jaedong or I'm God Young Ho!! I can't lose to this trash player. Sure, they get sniped every now and then but they are usually solid. Their slumps don't last very long because they know how to adapt.
Bisu on the other hand, lost to random scrubs all the time in OSL and MSL, in his best matchup no less. This is because he plays the same every game and try to beat everyone with his mechanics. Combine this with his emo attitude and you can see why he never go deep in starleagues.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the only one who was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes Hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, Soo and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and Great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Clearly zergs should just intentionally stop winning games against non-zergs in the MSL. That would make everybody happy. I mean, we wouldn't want to best players to win any titles, would we?
Direct your anger at somebody who can actually do anything about the lack of non-zergs in the last few MSLs, such as the non-zergs. Hope that the non-zergs do better, rather than the zergs doing worse.
Straight up. I don't like Zergs dominating OSL either, but what do you expect? Should Kespa just automatically advance Terrans and Toss?
i dont think theres something wrong with hoping for some racial balance in the tail ends of starleagues. of course its not right for players to intentionally drop games or some ridiculous race quota enforced by kespa, but i too hope that theres a good number of protoss in this osl/msl
i cant remember which one it is (i think its the msl), but i think all of the top 3 zergs are seeded anyway
On July 08 2011 07:01 Jumperer wrote: Bisu doesn't win in starleagues because he make excuses too much. It's always the map, it's always the practice, it's always the matchup. In contrast, Look at the attitude of savior, flash, nada, boxer, iloveoov and jaedong. They never, if rarely ever, make an excuse when they win or lose. If something isn't fair, they suck it up and find a way to overcome the odds and make it fair. other champions in other sports have the same quality. For instance, Michael Jordan had the flu and still dominated in NBA final. Tiger woods won a U.S. Open on one leg and played hurt the entire career.
Bisu just doesn't have the attitude of the champion. His mechanics is top class but you need more than that to overcome jaedong and flash. He dominates in proleague because in proleague teams can't really prepare a special build. It's all mechanic against mechanic most of the time. In starleagues, players can easily prepare for bisu's style since he always play the most modern safe build.
Regardless, I consider bisu as the greatest protoss of all time with his 3 MSLs.
Whatever happened to those "attitude" that defeated the dominant Maestro? Or what happened to the attitude that defeated the Mighty and Commanding Twin cannons of KHAN?
Bisu build destroyed savior. Stork and jangbi are silver medal artists and they both said in an old interview that they approach bo5 and bo3 by playing normally like they would play in proleague. The coaching in the KHAN house is pretty bad. Stork didn't win an OSL until he starts playing crazy.
Not sure how you can say this unless you've never watched starcraft until 2009. Keep in mind that even though Samsung is one of the biggest companies in the world, the Khan team is actually not rich. While the T1s and KTs were busying buying all-star teams, January had to build a team that was a mess. She created a finals-worthy team led by veteran JJu(career 52% wins), a brash young rookie protoss named Stork, and created the first true 2v2 tandum. Later went 1-1 in PL finals with Stork/Jangbi/FBH/2v2 team at their peaks.
Khan's biggest problem is that taking out 2v2s destroyed their edge(imagine taking out Sea or Leta from respective PL teams). Plus they could never develop or play against zergs for whatever reason.
People john for Protoss too much. 56% win rate v Terran this Proleague season? PvT is the most unbalanced matchup. Stop crying. And I say that with Bisu my favorite player and Protoss my favorite race.
On July 08 2011 15:14 KamMoye wrote: People john for Protoss too much. 56% win rate v Terran this Proleague season? PvT is the most unbalanced matchup. Stop crying. And I say that with Bisu my favorite player and Protoss my favorite race.
On July 08 2011 15:14 KamMoye wrote: People john for Protoss too much. 56% win rate v Terran this Proleague season? PvT is the most unbalanced matchup. Stop crying. And I say that with Bisu my favorite player and Protoss my favorite race.
Lol. How long have you followed the proscene? Of all the racial advantage match-ups (P>T, Z>P, T>Z), PvT is by far the most balanced match up. All terrans, except flash, has been sucking a lot recently so you can't blame the match up.
On July 07 2011 22:19 wherebugsgo wrote: It's been the same 3 zergs, twice: Hydra, Jaedong, ZerO. None of them are "mediocre" by any means; the Only ONE WhO was mediocre and made it to the finals of the MSL was great.
Let's take a look at the current OSL then. 9/16 players are Zerg, and that includes hyvaa, Hyuk, Killer, Modesty, SoO and Shine. We've had players such as Kwanro (!!!!!) and great reach Starleague finals for fuck's sake. If anyone tries to tell me Zergs haven't been dominating the Starleauges in general for quite a while I'll show you a liar.
Semi-Finals Appearances (2009 Batoo OSL - Current / Lost Saga MSL - Current) + Show Spoiler +
I wonder what the problem with Protoss is. Is it the players choking, maps, or what?
I've tried to explain many times but it's simply harder to be consistent with Protoss.
PvZ is prehaps the most imbalanced matchup and the one where a better player can easily lose, or Jaedong can win without even fully trying. And PvT is no longer in the P's favour, the top T's have a great record vs P. So P don't have a favoured matchup. They gotta beat their equals in T (who have many tricks for BO5's) and more importantly beat their superiors in PvZ, where Bisu is the only player who can even keep a consistent winrate, and certainly NOT in a Starleague.
A P would have to get a supremely lucky bracket or simply play at a godlike level currently to get a Starleague win. They need Bisu proleague level PvZ and somehow the ability to beat possibly Flash/Fantasy/Sea in PvT. Not to mention having to worry about being knocked out but players like Shuttle or Horang2.
SPL 2010-2011
TvZ: 100-90 (52.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 114-109 (51.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 120-94 (56.1%) [ Games ]
On July 08 2011 15:14 KamMoye wrote: People john for Protoss too much. 56% win rate v Terran this Proleague season? PvT is the most unbalanced matchup. Stop crying. And I say that with Bisu my favorite player and Protoss my favorite race.
Lol. How long have you followed the proscene? Of all the racial advantage match-ups (P>T, Z>P, T>Z), PvT is by far the most balanced match up. All terrans, except flash, has been sucking a lot recently so you can't blame the match up.
Yep, any1 who has been watching for a reasonable amount of time should know that PvT is the most balanced non-mirror, recently i dont even feel that P has an edge at all. Terran Metal Punch is scary. It just so happened that all the good T outside of Flash slumped like mad this season, esp the vP specialists like Fanta, or Hiya.
Though I don't share Legatus Lanius' sentiments, when I watch PvZ I do feel that it looks ridiculously tough, especially late game. However, I don't think that it is due to imba as much as it is due to the lack of innovation in the match-up.
made me think a lot about what protoss can do to a zerg who turtles to hive on 6 hatches, and after reading an opinion piece regarding this on fomos, I do concur with Kingdom's thoughts in that DAs should be used more late game to snipe defilers, along with good reaver usage. Bisu doesn't need to as much because he usually plays from an advantage, but that shouldn't stop other Ps from incorporating these elements into their play. A counterargument to using DAs may be that using feedback uses too much APM and DAs are a hefty investment, but that was the same thing said about queens, and look at its place in ZvMech now.
The same thing with incorporating stargate-tech late game. Arbiters are a natural transition since you already have the tech. We've seen Jaehoon and Flying experiment with it to varying degrees of effectiveness (from DAEBAK! in flying vs. yarnc to wtf jaehoon in jaehoon vs. roro), but it still remains relatively unexplored. Think about what if the P army can just by pass the simcity/sunkens and just attack the zerg 4th/Main. There's a lot of potential here. Protoss players should think about incorporating this in their play and figuring out the timings to get arbs out. Again, same thing with getting a fleet beacon, consair preservation amongst P progamers have been improving consistently, this is a fairly natural transition. D-web can help against sunkens (for instance in Tempest vs. Kwanro on polaris rhapsody) and also defensively, it's a fairly flexible spell and a lot of room for creativity with regards to how it can be used. Air weapons upgrades to shred ovies faster and remove dropping from the Z's options. There's a lot to be explored here as well, but again P players are reluctant. We see players (e.g. Kal) toy with the idea, but not tinker with their builds and try incorporate it.
Not much to do with innovation, but Protoss in general also skimp on having cannons, sim-citying and reavers to protect their bases and then complain about "cracklings imba". Hmm, I wonder why Nal_rA didn't have as much problem with crackling raids?
Another issue is too much predictability. E.g. Most protoss players FE every game. Sure, FE > 1 basing because 2 base vs. 3 hatch > 1 base vs. 2 hatch, simple maths. But going 1 base once in a while throws Zs off. Like JB vs. Hyun this group. Stork vs. by.Hero/Hydra/Zerg[kal]. Zs take for granted that Ps are going to FE and just put down their third automatically, 1 basing once in awhile can keep them on their toes. Plus, they're forced to play with less resources than they're usually used to, and force them to adopt a different build than what they've initially planned. Sure, maybe its viability is map dependent, but if the map is favourable for it then why not? Instead, we see players ditch it completely as an option. I'm not even sure if some Ps remember how to play 1base strategies vZ anymore. Using and refining such strategies can be a useful weapon against an unsuspecting zerg, but nope, Ps like being predictable. Because FE best opening right? Why 1base when you can 2base? Stork and JangBi noobs obviously.
On July 09 2011 20:02 Winechu wrote: Though I don't share Legatus Lanius' sentiments, when I watch PvZ I do feel that it looks ridiculously tough, especially late game. However, I don't think that it is due to imba as much as it is due to the lack of innovation in the match-up.
made me think a lot about what protoss can do to a zerg who turtles to hive on 6 hatches, and after reading an opinion piece regarding this on fomos, I do concur with Kingdom's thoughts in that DAs should be used more late game to snipe defilers, along with good reaver usage. Bisu doesn't need to as much because he usually plays from an advantage, but that shouldn't stop other Ps from incorporating these elements into their play. A counterargument to using DAs may be that using feedback uses too much APM and DAs are a hefty investment, but that was the same thing said about queens, and look at its place in ZvMech now.
The same thing with incorporating stargate-tech late game. Arbiters are a natural transition since you already have the tech. We've seen Jaehoon and Flying experiment with it to varying degrees of effectiveness (from DAEBAK! in flying vs. yarnc to wtf jaehoon in jaehoon vs. roro), but it still remains relatively unexplored. Think about what if the P army can just by pass the simcity/sunkens and just attack the zerg 4th/Main. There's a lot of potential here. Protoss players should think about incorporating this in their play and figuring out the timings to get arbs out. Again, same thing with getting a fleet beacon, consair preservation amongst P progamers have been improving consistently, this is a fairly natural transition. D-web can help against sunkens (for instance in Tempest vs. Kwanro on polaris rhapsody) and also defensively, it's a fairly flexible spell and a lot of room for creativity with regards to how it can be used. Air weapons upgrades to shred ovies faster and remove dropping from the Z's options. There's a lot to be explored here as well, but again P players are reluctant. We see players (e.g. Kal) toy with the idea, but not tinker with their builds and try incorporate it.
Not much to do with innovation, but Protoss in general also skimp on having cannons, sim-citying and reavers to protect their bases and then complain about "cracklings imba". Hmm, I wonder why Nal_rA didn't have as much problem with crackling raids?
Another issue is too much predictability. E.g. Most protoss players FE every game. Sure, FE > 1 basing because 2 base vs. 3 hatch > 1 base vs. 2 hatch, simple maths. But going 1 base once in a while throws Zs off. Like JB vs. Hyun this group. Stork vs. by.Hero/Hydra/Zerg[kal]. Zs take for granted that Ps are going to FE and just put down their third automatically, 1 basing once in awhile can keep them on their toes. Plus, they're forced to play with less resources than they're usually used to, and force them to adopt a different build than what they've initially planned. Sure, maybe its viability is map dependent, but if the map is favourable for it then why not? Instead, we see players ditch it completely as an option. I'm not even sure if some Ps remember how to play 1base strategies vZ anymore. Using and refining such strategies can be a useful weapon against an unsuspecting zerg, but nope, Ps like being predictable. Because FE best opening right? Why 1base when you can 2base? Stork and JangBi noobs obviously.
-Frustrated P fanboy
Well, I think the "counter" to go up against 6 Hatch Hive play is just use units to defend instead of attacking. Defend and expand until you get yourself a 4th. Then start massing up those Reavers and make a push. Protoss can be played like Terran as well!!! Reavers > Tanks imo
What's the point of even going for the 4-base turtle style if protoss somehow manages to be on an equal footing with the zerg in the lategame despite spending the entire midgame being hyper-aggressive? Right now, it seems like an even tradeoff to me. The zerg is going for a strategy that is designed to have an extremely strong late game but on the flip side, it leaves the zerg highly vulnerable in the early to midgame period. On the other hand, the protoss attempt to overwhelm the zerg with midgame aggression but when their aggression fails to cripple the zerg, they are severely behind in the lategame.
I find that ZvP imba can be summed up as "better unit micro on both sides -> more zerg advantage". Storm dodging, scourge micro against sair/shuttles, templar snipe with mutas, lings harassing all over the map, and general surrounds of protoss ball with hydra/lurker/ling/defiler army. When players' control rises, the matchup becomes more favorable to zerg in general. These days, it's hard for a protoss to outplay a zerg in general unless you're Bisu.
Of course, this doesn't get truly reflected in PL play because bad zergs can't really take advantage of such things... given that they're simply not skilled. But the top zergs who are skilled all beast at ZvP
EPT
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