On June 20 2011 18:22 Eun_Star wrote: i'm not sure about calling 2 hatch muta cheese, but i'd say it's definitely all-in. with a close position like that, maybe it was a bad idea for flash to go 14 cc.
I've seen games where players have started with 2-hatch muta and transitioned into expanding and lurkers after doing enough damage so it's not always all-in.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
I don't really wanna go much further with this, but even 2 hatch while making a lot of units in response to something isn't cheese. If that's cheese then jaedong used to "cheese" in 3/4 of his ZvT games. Making units because you see an opening isn't cheese; hydra wasn't sitting there praying flash died as he a clicked, he just saw a 14 CC and an opening and so he exploited it.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:20 ketomai wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 sixfour wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
I don't really wanna go much further with this, but even 2 hatch while making a lot of units in response to something isn't cheese. If that's cheese then jaedong used to "cheese" in 3/4 of his ZvT games. Making units because you see an opening isn't cheese; hydra wasn't sitting there praying flash died as he a clicked, he just saw a 14 CC and an opening and so he exploited it.
A response to something can still be a cheese. When Stork responded to jaedong by proxying a ton of gateways it was a cheese. Cheese does not preclude scouting information. The most notable saying that goes with this is Midas' "After scouting, if close bunker rush, if far expand."
After watching the replay, I guess Flash was also a bit surprised how aggressive (even in comparison to other 2 hatch builds) Hydra was. He lost some mutas but did dive in again and again where I feel other zerg´s would have been more careful and therefor would not do that massive damage he did.
2 hatch muta is not cheese, just an alternative opening that is more aggressive and requires delicate balance of larva usage. Saying 2 hatch muta is cheese is like saying 8rax is cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:30 Black[CAT] wrote: 2 hatch muta is not cheese, just an alternative opening that is more aggressive and requires delicate balance of larva usage. Saying 2 hatch muta is cheese is like saying 8rax is cheese.
I've already responded to this line of thinking and pointed out how it CAN be incorrect. Things are not so strict.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting where the proxy gates are, not walling, etc).
edit: to further explain, on certain positions 2 hatch mutas is strong even if scouted or if you suspect it's coming.
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
Flash opens 14CC in these positions on Icarus and Hydra is getting called out for cheesing, ridiculous. Apparently Hydra was supposed to just continue playing standard with a massive BO loss when he had the perfect option of ending the game with 2 hatch muta.
EPT
