CJ have been on a tear for a while, and KT have been finding ways to win even when their best player has had an off day (always the sign of a good team in sport).
My first reaction upon seeing this on the calender was "oh man thats going to be a sweet match up!" but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect this will be a pretty easy win for CJ. I expect them to win it 4-1.
On June 20 2011 11:08 synapse wrote: With the way KT has been playing recently, I expect CJ to 4-1 T.T
KTFlash whyyyy qqqqq
its a common curse for players coming off a hot streak in an individual league to begin sucking... as it is for a great spler to suck in individual leagues. just take a look at sea! awesome in SPL, falls apart individual... (please take this as a joke TL).
otherwise, Reach, CH, Tempest, and BarrackS to win. GO KT!!! 4-0!!!
I think KT will upset. Stats and tempest both have strong vP, Flash can take on anyone really but especially CJs zerg/terran line up, Crazy hydra should win a zvz... etc
On June 20 2011 11:27 Vasoline73 wrote: I think KT will upset. Stats and tempest both have strong vP, Flash can take on anyone really but especially CJs zerg/terran line up, Crazy hydra should win a zvz... etc
This is assuming KT gets the matchups they want, which they are probably the worst team in the league at getting, compared to CJ who is by far the best team at getting what matchups they want.
On June 20 2011 11:08 synapse wrote: With the way KT has been playing recently, I expect CJ to 4-1 T.T
KTFlash whyyyy qqqqq
its a common curse for players coming off a hot streak in an individual league to begin sucking... as it is for a great spler to suck in individual leagues. just take a look at sea! awesome in SPL, falls apart individual... (please take this as a joke TL).
ROFL This sounds like a Bisu joke also. Well played. Hahaha.
On June 20 2011 11:08 synapse wrote: With the way KT has been playing recently, I expect CJ to 4-1 T.T
KTFlash whyyyy qqqqq
its a common curse for players coming off a hot streak in an individual league to begin sucking... as it is for a great spler to suck in individual leagues. just take a look at sea! awesome in SPL, falls apart individual... (please take this as a joke TL).
ROFL This sounds like a Bisu joke also. Well played. Hahaha.
And WHY is Leta not doing CJ Face -_-?!~
horang2 is infecting the team with happiness, slowly but surely muhahahahahhaha
Flash is so mannered. He saw that Jaedong was being criticized after him Ro4 losses and his mini-slump, so he decided to go to a mini-slump himslef to keep the discussion alive on who's the better player on SC2 history. What a baller.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:18 Doraemon wrote: however...hasn't it been KTnonFlash lately? flash losing = everyone else winning right?
Basically like last year yeah. Flash starts playing like shit in proleague while reality hits the rest of KT and they realise that Flash can't carry them the whole time.
2 hatch muta on Icarus isn't fucking cheese, it's the right build in those positions for zerg against terran, unless the zerg doesn't want to win. Flash should have bunker rushed, tbh.
i'm not sure about calling 2 hatch muta cheese, but i'd say it's definitely all-in. with a close position like that, maybe it was a bad idea for flash to go 14 cc.
I think Flash would have held the 2-hatch muta if he hadn't lost so much to the first set of lings. It put him just enough behind. Pretty greedy way to play though when you know that 2 hatch on that map is pretty likely.
On June 20 2011 18:22 Doraemon wrote: man...if effort ever gets back to his osl form...i'm scared....very scared
doesn't really matter, cj are the best team by far already
I doubt CJ will stay the same next season. When the Free agent period starts, Snow, Hydra, Leta, Horang2, Movie are all gonna negotiate for higher salaries. Unless they win the SPL, CJ can't afford to match their desires. I think one or two of them is switching teams. My guess would be Leta or Horang2
It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
On June 20 2011 18:22 Doraemon wrote: man...if effort ever gets back to his osl form...i'm scared....very scared
doesn't really matter, cj are the best team by far already
I doubt it will stay the same next season. When the Free agent period starts, Snow, Hydra, Leta, Effort, Horang2, Movie are all gonna negotiate for higher salaries. Unless they win the SPL, I think one or two of them is switching teams. My guess would be Leta or Horang2
Effort is going to negotiate for a higher salary? On what basis?
On June 20 2011 18:22 Doraemon wrote: man...if effort ever gets back to his osl form...i'm scared....very scared
doesn't really matter, cj are the best team by far already
I doubt it will stay the same next season. When the Free agent period starts, Snow, Hydra, Leta, Effort, Horang2, Movie are all gonna negotiate for higher salaries. Unless they win the SPL, I think one or two of them is switching teams. My guess would be Leta or Horang2
Effort is going to negotiate for a higher salary? On what basis?
Not enough E's in his alphabet soup. I edited as fast as I could, but I can't beat quickdraw
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
On June 20 2011 18:22 Eun_Star wrote: i'm not sure about calling 2 hatch muta cheese, but i'd say it's definitely all-in. with a close position like that, maybe it was a bad idea for flash to go 14 cc.
I've seen games where players have started with 2-hatch muta and transitioned into expanding and lurkers after doing enough damage so it's not always all-in.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
I don't really wanna go much further with this, but even 2 hatch while making a lot of units in response to something isn't cheese. If that's cheese then jaedong used to "cheese" in 3/4 of his ZvT games. Making units because you see an opening isn't cheese; hydra wasn't sitting there praying flash died as he a clicked, he just saw a 14 CC and an opening and so he exploited it.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:20 ketomai wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 sixfour wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
I don't really wanna go much further with this, but even 2 hatch while making a lot of units in response to something isn't cheese. If that's cheese then jaedong used to "cheese" in 3/4 of his ZvT games. Making units because you see an opening isn't cheese; hydra wasn't sitting there praying flash died as he a clicked, he just saw a 14 CC and an opening and so he exploited it.
A response to something can still be a cheese. When Stork responded to jaedong by proxying a ton of gateways it was a cheese. Cheese does not preclude scouting information. The most notable saying that goes with this is Midas' "After scouting, if close bunker rush, if far expand."
After watching the replay, I guess Flash was also a bit surprised how aggressive (even in comparison to other 2 hatch builds) Hydra was. He lost some mutas but did dive in again and again where I feel other zerg´s would have been more careful and therefor would not do that massive damage he did.
2 hatch muta is not cheese, just an alternative opening that is more aggressive and requires delicate balance of larva usage. Saying 2 hatch muta is cheese is like saying 8rax is cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:30 Black[CAT] wrote: 2 hatch muta is not cheese, just an alternative opening that is more aggressive and requires delicate balance of larva usage. Saying 2 hatch muta is cheese is like saying 8rax is cheese.
I've already responded to this line of thinking and pointed out how it CAN be incorrect. Things are not so strict.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting where the proxy gates are, not walling, etc).
edit: to further explain, on certain positions 2 hatch mutas is strong even if scouted or if you suspect it's coming.
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
Flash opens 14CC in these positions on Icarus and Hydra is getting called out for cheesing, ridiculous. Apparently Hydra was supposed to just continue playing standard with a massive BO loss when he had the perfect option of ending the game with 2 hatch muta.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
On June 20 2011 18:26 TwoToneTerran wrote: Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
I'd define cheese a build that takes the opponent by surprise, hides something (proxy for example) that is easy to counter if scouted and hard if not.
All-in on the other hand is something that cuts economy or tech to make one attempt to take the game and finish it and if countered it's hard or impossible to recover.
2hat against 14cc, pure BO advantage and abusing that fact. Cutting workers doesnt make it cheese, it could make it all-in but I wouldnt call this all in either.
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
that wasn't cheese by Hydra lol.. Flash got the imba position anyway, any competent Zerg would've won getting those positions
Did you notice the observer hovering over Hydra's drones multiple times? Now did you count the drones? Now did you count the number of lings and mutas he made in comparison to those drones? IT was absolutely cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:20 ketomai wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:19 sixfour wrote:
On June 20 2011 18:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's anti-cheese abilities have hit the shitter.
can we stop calling anything that isn't at least four base play cheese
Hydra had 15 drones, it was cheese mate. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's flash's fault for losing to it.
2 hatch muta isn't cheese... You normally are pretty low on drones until your mutas are out.
It was cheese because of the number of mutas and the lings, not because it was 2hatch muta. Notice how I never even said "2hatch muta is cheese," But that that many units with that few drones is what makes it cheese.
I don't really wanna go much further with this, but even 2 hatch while making a lot of units in response to something isn't cheese. If that's cheese then jaedong used to "cheese" in 3/4 of his ZvT games. Making units because you see an opening isn't cheese; hydra wasn't sitting there praying flash died as he a clicked, he just saw a 14 CC and an opening and so he exploited it.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
Yeah, but why would he not make lings when he sees he can get in and punish Flash?
"Oh no, the liquipedia 2 hatch muta page says I must have X drones, I will not take my opportunity get in Flash's base". Don't be ridiculous. Flash goes 14cc and you are calling 2 hatch muta cheese.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
Yeah, but why would he not make lings when he sees he can get in and punish Flash?
"Oh no, the liquipedia 2 hatch muta page says I must have X drones, I will not take my opportunity get in Flash's base". Don't be ridiculous. Flash goes 14cc and you are calling 2 hatch muta cheese.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say Hydra shouldn't have done it, I've just always said anything where you massively sacrifice drones this early in the game to kill your opponent as cheese. :> You're the one who said he had the normal number of drones which is farcical.
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
Yeah, but why would he not make lings when he sees he can get in and punish Flash?
"Oh no, the liquipedia 2 hatch muta page says I must have X drones, I will not take my opportunity get in Flash's base". Don't be ridiculous. Flash goes 14cc and you are calling 2 hatch muta cheese.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say Hydra shouldn't have done it, I've just always said anything where you massively sacrifice drones this early in the game to kill your opponent as cheese. :> You're the one who said he had the normal number of drones which is farcical.
You are confusing the definition of cheese and all-in. 2 hatch muting cutting drones = all-in. But it's NOT cheese.
A blind 5 pool, proxy gates, bbs, 11 fact vulture, no dragoon DT rush, etc <- those are cheese builds.
Why are you guys talking about lurkers? Lurkers are awful vs mech. Hydras are just needed to defend vultures, there was no fake lurkering and I'd be surprised if the terran thought that, lol.
On June 20 2011 18:21 Iplaythings wrote: i just hope his wrist isnt what is causing him to lose
come on, stop saying that everytime flash losses...
it's as stupid as OZ fans, who blamed every loss for about half a year on "JD looks tired and doesn't get enough rest" in 2010...
.............. are you really buthurt about people caring about their teams players conditions? Hydra outplayed flash and hit the "before marine range" timing perfectly?
Please just get-the-fuck-out if you dont think either are whats bothering people, cus you know what? When Jaedong comes up to the stage with bags under his eyes, when flash uses most of the time before the match massagin his wrist? guess what, there is probally something wrong.
Please just THINK before you post bigotry like that
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
Yeah, but why would he not make lings when he sees he can get in and punish Flash?
"Oh no, the liquipedia 2 hatch muta page says I must have X drones, I will not take my opportunity get in Flash's base". Don't be ridiculous. Flash goes 14cc and you are calling 2 hatch muta cheese.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say Hydra shouldn't have done it, I've just always said anything where you massively sacrifice drones this early in the game to kill your opponent as cheese. :> You're the one who said he had the normal number of drones which is farcical.
You are confusing the definition of cheese and all-in. 2 hatch muting cutting drones = all-in. But it's NOT cheese.
Maybe I'm being too hesitant to call something an all-in because I got in a massive semantics argument about it not too long ago. EITHER WAY, Flash used to have an impeccable sense to defend that kind of stuff and it's sad to see him lose to it a lot.
On June 20 2011 18:30 Iplaythings wrote: ireally hope la mancha will be out of the mappool next season..
its just so terribly much z>p>t map which is boring to watch at .(
It's actually more like this- z=p>t>z
TvZ: 29-19 (60.4%) [ Games ] ZvP: 23-23 (50%) [ Games ] PvT: 38-27 (58.5%) [ Games ]
well, they still send zergs out on the map in hopes of sniping a protoss ( i hope cus i cant see why they would wanna get a zvt like they would on icarus)
On June 20 2011 18:25 juuust wrote: It absolutely wasnt cheese, it was playing according to how the game was going.
2hat muta is based on early harassment and it has to do damage to be able to carry on to mid and late game. Now if the build is working real good and doing insane damage why not continue pumping units instead of workers and finish it right there?
You ppl have really forgotten what cheese or all-in means.
Cheese is when you vastly sacrifice the number of workers you have to make a lot of units to kill your opponent. When you have less drones out than mutas you've made then you're cheesing. Just because you can make drones later doesn't make it not cheese.
Is this somehow new to people that 2hatch muta CAN be cheese?
It's not an insult, either. Hydra spotted the positions and made the decision that got him the win. Flash cheeses about as much as any other player, I am by no means insulting Hydra for doing it.
That's not cheese. Probably all-inish, but not cheese lol. Cheese a blind strategy like BBS, proxy gates, where you rely on luck to beat your opponent (him not scouting, not walling, etc).
Btw you keep mentioning the amount of drones and that's exactly the amount of drones you usually have when you 2 hatch mutas, you start with more, but then you need 2 extractors, the spire, maybe a sunken, etc.
What? That's absolutely not true, you have way more drones because you don't make even half the number of lings hydra does when you do the standard 2 hatch muta.
There are a lot of ways to play 2 hatch muta. Making lings because you have speed to lower marine count/delay timings before mutas is pretty normal. He might have made more than normal, but that was only because he scouted. At that point it could be all in, but it's most definitely not cheese.
Who cares that Flash lost, you guys should be happy he's losing right now because KT needs him to lose. The more he loses, the more his teammates are forced to carry the weight. Their competitors are pretty much in freefall too so they should make it to the post-season fairly easily.
Also, zerg going all-in isn't exactly a negative thing. Zerg has to make units and drones from the same limited resource, larva, so sometimes zerg has to go all-in by necessity (by the definition of cutting drones = all-in).
Action not doing very well and now the stream dies, no! Wait, stabilised again.
On June 20 2011 18:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: Watch as Action attempts to base trade but forgets that tanks exist.
I watched.
I was not surprised.
Wasn't even o0n purpose. He just did the most extreme scouting fail I have seen in a while. The Terran just walked ~20 Goliaths across the map without Action noticing and then they were in his third.
On June 20 2011 18:49 kuroshiroi wrote: KT is pretty unlucky tonight. Flash in a TvZ on Icarus on those positions, Action in a ZvT on La Mancha. Next up, Leta vs. Stats on Neo Beltway.
Getting a TvZ on Icarus isn't unlucky, it's bad coaching.
omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
On June 20 2011 18:49 kuroshiroi wrote: KT is pretty unlucky tonight. Flash in a TvZ on Icarus on those positions, Action in a ZvT on La Mancha. Next up, Leta vs. Stats on Neo Beltway.
Getting a TvZ on Icarus isn't unlucky, it's bad coaching.
Would've been fine if Flash had spawned at 3 or 9 and it IS Flash. But sure.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Lings + hardcore 2 hatch muta against 14CC. Flash defended poorly, Hydra had great micro.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
no one said flash lost because of a "cheese." 2 hatch muta vs 14 cc close position with zergling run-by, killing multiple marines in the process meant flash really couldn't do much at the situation. I don't see trash talk towards hydra either...where are you getting this from?
flash needs to stop getting owned by early aggression or getting outmacroed
he needs to bring his aggressive play again like we saw in the finals (). every time i see him play very economic games he gets stomped? but i haven't seen that many of his recent games.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Lings + hardcore 2 hatch muta against 14CC. Flash defended poorly, Hydra had great micro.
oh, thanks, looks like Flash got outmicroed, well, everyone has bad days.
On June 20 2011 18:49 kuroshiroi wrote: KT is pretty unlucky tonight. Flash in a TvZ on Icarus on those positions, Action in a ZvT on La Mancha. Next up, Leta vs. Stats on Neo Beltway.
Getting a TvZ on Icarus isn't unlucky, it's bad coaching.
Yeah. So frustrating to be a fan of a team that can take down any other teams but always face the wrong opponents on wrong maps :/. If KT would magically win today then getting 2nd place is possible, but they have to win at least 3 games without Flash and Action to go to the Ace match...
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
Flank and trap them on the bridge as they attack the third.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
I'd argue that sending Flash or JD on an "imba" map because you can bet on them finding a way to play it is pretty good for teams like KT. Gives the rest of your team a lot more flexibility and also probably throws off the opponent. Having a 50% chance of an even game as Flash (so not very even) then a 50% chance of a slightly unfavorable position for the average joe but with Flash instead isn't so bad.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
He wasn't. He momentarily turned his army back towards his base when the goliaths first entered his vision, then realized there was no way he'd make it and went for the counter. He also ran his drones very late. If he had been planning to sacrifice the expansion all along, there was no reason to leave them there and lose 3-4 running away.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
no one said flash lost because of a "cheese." 2 hatch muta vs 14 cc close position with zergling run-by, killing multiple marines in the process meant flash really couldn't do much at the situation. I don't see trash talk towards hydra either...where are you getting this from?
TwoToneTerran, a KT fan, would like a word with you.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
I'm sorry but i fail to see any plans here. The only reason Flash wins on Icarus is because he's so incredibly good in TvZ and Action is just horrible in ZvT. Switch the two players and maybe it will make some sense.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Lings + hardcore 2 hatch muta against 14CC. Flash defended poorly, Hydra had great micro.
oh, thanks, looks like Flash got outmicroed, well, everyone has bad days.
Don't get me wrong, Hydra played an almost perfect game. All of his muta hits were pretty much golden. Flash made some mistakes but mostly he was just being way too greedy.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
no one said flash lost because of a "cheese." 2 hatch muta vs 14 cc close position with zergling run-by, killing multiple marines in the process meant flash really couldn't do much at the situation. I don't see trash talk towards hydra either...where are you getting this from?
TwoToneTerran, a KT fan, would like a word with you.
I wasn't trash talking and I've rescinded calling it cheese because people take offense, and changed it to "well informed allin," which will probably get me into another argument no matter how many freaking times I said Hydra was intelligent and right for doing it. But oh no, I'm insulting and attacking him when my first post was literally me saying "Flash used to be so much better at defending that." I criticize flash and get plastered by the forums for attacking hydra.
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Hydra had good early ling agressive, made a decent run by, killed a couple of marines and kept Flash off balance.
He followed with a 2 hatch mutas. Flash cut scvs and marine production to turret up like mad to protect his mineral lines. Hydra had very good muta micro (got a couple of volleys off that killed 3 marines). Flash didn't had range upgrade for marines.
When Flash's marine numbers where low enough, Hydra took Flash's natural with lings + some muta support.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
I'd argue that sending Flash or JD on an "imba" map because you can bet on them finding a way to play it is pretty good for teams like KT. Gives the rest of your team a lot more flexibility and also probably throws off the opponent. Having a 50% chance of an even game versus Flash (so not very even) then a 50% chance of a slightly unfavorable position for the average joe but with Flash instead isn't so bad.
No, this is exactly wrong, especially for Flash in his current condition. Flash has been most dominant in Proleague when he's been able to set up shop on a map like Colosseum or Moon Glaive and give KT an almost 100% guaranteed win on that map. This also allows him to use his practice time effectively, since he only needs to prepare builds for one map. You want to use your best player in a way that boosts his effectiveness most over an arbitrary player you could send in his place. Flash is not a significantly better choice than other KT players on a map like Icarus to the extent that he is on a map like Beltway, especially when KT has no other good Terrans to send to abuse good T maps.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
Weren't they +1 attack goliaths?
If they were he's dumb, you get +armor when you're fighting hydra/muta.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
Weren't they +1 attack goliaths?
If they were he's dumb, you get +armor when you're fighting hydra/muta.
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
The coaches plans were good. Both players just failed executing them. I am sure the coach told Action to not LOSE TRACK of the opponents entire Mech force when it pushes out. I still don't know how that was possible. It is like a bad joke with slow people and slugs or something.
Actually, I think he was aware of those goliaths. There was just nothing he could have done at this point against 13 +1 armor gols :-o.
Weren't they +1 attack goliaths?
If they were he's dumb, you get +armor when you're fighting hydra/muta.
Yeah, that's why I remember. It seemed weird to me. If he had tanks, those should be the ones dishing out damage, goliaths should tank all the damage while the tanks do their job...
On June 20 2011 18:50 Hellwitch wrote: Send Flash on Icarus to get own by 2 Hatch mutas, then send Action on La Mancha to get destroyed by Mech... WTF is up with KT coaches seriously?
I'd argue that sending Flash or JD on an "imba" map because you can bet on them finding a way to play it is pretty good for teams like KT. Gives the rest of your team a lot more flexibility and also probably throws off the opponent. Having a 50% chance of an even game versus Flash (so not very even) then a 50% chance of a slightly unfavorable position for the average joe but with Flash instead isn't so bad.
No, this is exactly wrong, especially for Flash in his current condition. Flash has been most dominant in Proleague when he's been able to set up shop on a map like Colosseum or Moon Glaive and give KT an almost 100% guaranteed win on that map. This also allows him to use his practice time effectively, since he only needs to prepare builds for one map. You want to use your best player in a way that boosts his effectiveness most over an arbitrary player you could send in his place. Flash is not a significantly better choice than other KT players on a map like Icarus to the extent that he is on a map like Beltway, especially when KT has no other good Terrans to send to abuse good T maps.
But that also makes you a little predictable. Anyone who faces KT is going to have a snipe flash plan and 2 backup snipe flash plans.
To me I just think Flash is on such a high level that he can beat many players with just fundamentals. To use him as a one map player/sniper when he can play any map relatively well and face any opponent on those maps pretty decently seems like a waste, especially if the rest of your team isn't superb as well. As for his slump, it's my opinion that he's not really in a slump, just losing multiple games in a row (it happens). Flash doesn't really "slump" in the sense that his play takes a nosedive, it's usually just losing to random shit.
Couple looking very embarrassed to shy Stats with 2 goons, range still going Robotics first for Snow, Stats just starting his Stats moving out with 2 goons, Snow blocking his ramp with 2 lots and 2 goons Both are dancing, but Stats pulls back
Snow sneaks a probe into Stat's main Snow has both Robotics support and obs up Both players taking out their temples Robotics just finishing for Stats, obs just going up now Shuttle is out for Snow
On June 20 2011 19:07 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: why are these korean audience so shy! you look at their naver/etc pics and they seem happy to be on it, but when its here theyre always like this
I asked my friend this same question and he told me it's because they're afraid of their parents seeing them not at school.
However, IMO it has just become this 'tradition' now instead.
On June 20 2011 19:07 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: why are these korean audience so shy! you look at their naver/etc pics and they seem happy to be on it, but when its here theyre always like this
i think its because of the common asian mentality not to show your true emotions to just anyone... so that's why the couple don't want to be caught on camera probably... there's nothing too unusual in it.
2nd gate for both players? 3rd gate for Snow Both players with a shuttle and reaver on the field Snows Obs scouts all, Stats probe scouts the shuttle Stats has a snow shuttle at the moment, Snow with a fast one Snow completely prepared and forces the shuttle ack Stats taking his nat
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Lings + hardcore 2 hatch muta against 14CC. Flash defended poorly, Hydra had great micro.
oh, thanks, looks like Flash got outmicroed, well, everyone has bad days.
Don't get me wrong, Hydra played an almost perfect game. All of his muta hits were pretty much golden. Flash made some mistakes but mostly he was just being way too greedy.
So am I saying, just a bad day, while Hydra definitely wanted to claw that win out of Flash. But its a good thing that zergs are learning to punish 14 cc. I was losing hope
Snow taking his expo aswell 2 reavers for Stats, not sure about Snow Snow keeps his obs alive, barely Citadel going up for Stats, aswell he has a 2nd gas, Snow does not 3 reavers ;O 4 gateways for Snow, Stats adding more 2 or 3, total of 5 or 6 Reaver microoo
On June 20 2011 18:51 Koka-kola wrote: omg, the amount of "cheese" trashtalk is ridiulous, how the hell does that excuse Flash for losing. I've read like 8 pages and still hasn't found a single post about how the hell did Hydra win Flash? Are kidding me guys?
Lings + hardcore 2 hatch muta against 14CC. Flash defended poorly, Hydra had great micro.
oh, thanks, looks like Flash got outmicroed, well, everyone has bad days.
Don't get me wrong, Hydra played an almost perfect game. All of his muta hits were pretty much golden. Flash made some mistakes but mostly he was just being way too greedy.
So am I saying, just a bad day, while Hydra definitely wanted to claw that win out of Flash. But its a good thing that zergs are learning to punish 14 cc. I was losing hope
The answer is some form of all-in, who would've thought after seeing Effort do it a year ago it would take so long for people to realise that :D
2 gates and citadel being added for Snow DT for Snow, obs spots it, and reavers kill it off 3 reavers for Snow Shuttle taking hits from goons Stats expanding again to 9 His army is moving down the center, HT being added Archives for Snow
OH stats loses his shuttle and reaver carelessly before the engagement and Snow basically rolls him in that battle. Some nice storms sorta keep him in but his third is being destroyed now.
Storms on all of Snows army Stats has no reavers though, shuttle was sniped The reavers forcing ChinToss back Storm takes one of one Snow's Reavers One reaver left, Stats is getting pushed back, and his HT have been taken out Snow pressing the 9 oclock, and has expanded to 3 oclock himself Snow has lost both his reavers +1 attack for Stats Stats army gets taken out, aswell as a fresh reaver. Snow is all over the 9 oclock, nexus goes down Picks off a reaver, and his forces are taken out
Storm drop fails 137-122 Small attack force moving towards 9 oclock Snow out of positions, Stats pushing his nat One reaver dies Probes being pulled Stats is in the nat, aswell at the 3rd Storm drop that doesn't fail this time Manclaps <3
DT moving about, gets into the main Wheres the detection? Snow moving towards 9 3 storms for one reaver, DT gets spotted and killed Snow's reaver micro <3 Engagement Snow getting pushed back The 3rd is vulnerable Snow almost runs his shuttle into the goons
lol Snow always does the most risky things. He should have just sat back and won that game. Its the same with his pvz - its beautiful to watch but he makes very difficult plays.
Not sure what to think about this, if CH steps up he can probably take a game off movie But I love watching movie's pvz a lot so I'm not sure whom to cheer for
Robotics getting added Hydras picking away at the gateways Stargate up, sair moving around scouting everything 2 cannons added 4th hatchery Lair morphing
Goon reaver moving out, wow thats strange to type out Huge scarabs going off, most hydras dead One sunken goes down at the nat Hatchery goes down, nat is breached Thats no dud scarab GG 20 kills on one, 10 on the other
On June 20 2011 20:00 Womwomwom wrote: Yeah KT lost like their whole A team in the past two years. Violet is gone, Luxury is gone, and Forgg is gone. That's like 3 of their best players.
If KT drops this match they'll likely be forced to settle for 3rd and have to play 2 more series in the playoffs before even getting to face the 2nd ranked team.
I thought they would have brought everything they had to this match
On June 20 2011 20:00 Womwomwom wrote: Yeah KT lost like their whole A team in the past two years. Violet is gone, Luxury is gone, and Forgg is gone. That's like 3 of their best players.
On June 20 2011 20:00 Womwomwom wrote: Yeah KT lost like their whole A team in the past two years. Violet is gone, Luxury is gone, and Forgg is gone. That's like 3 of their best players.
The thing is that other teams have added lots of good players over the past two years--think about Bogus, Hydra, Soulkey, etc. KT has...Hoejja.
On June 20 2011 20:03 Zona wrote: If KT drops this match they'll likely be forced to settle for 3rd and have to play 2 more series in the playoffs before even getting to face the 2nd ranked team.
I thought they would have brought everything they had to this match
It's 3rd vs. 6th, right? So maybe Oz will have to take them on...
On June 20 2011 20:00 Womwomwom wrote: Yeah KT lost like their whole A team in the past two years. Violet is gone, Luxury is gone, and Forgg is gone. That's like 3 of their best players.
On June 20 2011 20:00 Womwomwom wrote: Yeah KT lost like their whole A team in the past two years. Violet is gone, Luxury is gone, and Forgg is gone. That's like 3 of their best players.
The thing is that other teams have added lots of good players over the past two years--think about Bogus, Hydra, Soulkey, etc. KT has...Hoejja.
On June 20 2011 20:03 Zona wrote: If KT drops this match they'll likely be forced to settle for 3rd and have to play 2 more series in the playoffs before even getting to face the 2nd ranked team.
I thought they would have brought everything they had to this match
It's 3rd vs. 6th, right? So maybe Oz will have to take them on...
right, but supposing they win that series, they will ALSO have to face the winner of 4th vs 5th before they can even step up to face who got 2nd.
On June 20 2011 20:03 Zona wrote: If KT drops this match they'll likely be forced to settle for 3rd and have to play 2 more series in the playoffs before even getting to face the 2nd ranked team.
I thought they would have brought everything they had to this match
It's 3rd vs. 6th, right? So maybe Oz will have to take them on...
right, but supposing they win that series, they will ALSO have to face the winner of 4th vs 5th before they can even step up to face who got 2nd.
This is an important match!
Yeah, but Oz has 4-1 and 4-0 them in the last two matches. They're in deep trouble if they don't shape up.
It seems so long ago that people were impressed by Hoejja for not only having great ZvP, but incredibly smart and crafty zvp. Long live the mineral jumper!
I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
On June 20 2011 20:22 GeLaar wrote: Can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope KT pull their shit together and take this to ace, the send out Flash, where he will not screw up.
well in this instance KT winning will also help superior KT
But KT needs to take advantage of this breath of life Hoejja just provided
On June 20 2011 20:21 zobz wrote: Can Hoejja really make some kind of run of this? Those were two of the cleverist consecutive build orders I've ever seen.
its so fun to see hoejja after so long not playing agree the one vs kal was just plain food for the brain awesome indeed he is becoming the nal ra of zerg
On June 20 2011 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
On June 20 2011 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
cheese?
Blind 2 hatch muta vs protoss after 9pool, there's no way you're telling me that isn't cheese. I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT
On June 20 2011 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
Horang2 would've probably taken so much less damage if there was a cannon in his mineral line but I suppose he didn't want to make his mining less efficient...
On June 20 2011 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
cheese?
Blind 2 hatch muta vs protoss after 9pool, there's no way you're telling me that isn't cheese. I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT
9 pool is standard on 2 and 3 player maps in ZvP. And practically all toss players open FFE. If horang2 had not made sairs, he would've lost even harder. So blindness is not a factor here.
On June 20 2011 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't think I've seen a better executed ZvP cheese. That muta/scourge control was immaculate and the strategy itself was just plain sick. The map definitely played a part in it but goddamn, Hoejja pulled it off even with Horang2 completely sniffing it out.
cheese?
Blind 2 hatch muta vs protoss after 9pool, there's no way you're telling me that isn't cheese. I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT
9 pool is standard on 2 and 3 player maps in ZvP. And practically all toss players open FFE. If horang2 had not made sairs, he would've lost even harder. So blindness is not a factor here.
Even if hoejja had a map hack that was a freakin cheese. You do not tech up that fast with that few drones without it being cheese, it's like saying 1 base dt drops aren't cheese, lol.
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
Leta kills alot of probes DT's slash the tanks away, marines get taken out One DT takes a mine hit 3, 4 DT's on the field Tempest adding 2 more gates He has robotics out, and obs
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
the korean word is 효자, which is pronounced "hyoja".
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
the korean word is 효자, which is pronounced "hyoja".
On June 20 2011 20:26 Sovetsky Soyuz wrote: i asked earlier, i ask again since its not yet playing how do you pronounce hoejja? /hoyja/?
The "hoe" stands for a Korean syllable that's quite hard to explain using English sounds. Try saying the h-sound, followed by the "wi" from "with", and opening up more for the vowel.
As for the "ja", I guess you'd write it "jah" in English. The English "j" will do more or less, and the "a" is "ah", not the American "a".
the korean word is 효자, which is pronounced "hyoja".
Tempest looking to expo, mine is in the way Mines at the exit of the gatways manage to not kill the goons CC in base for Leta's 3rd The 3 vultures went down in Tempest's main I believe
On June 20 2011 20:45 kuroshiroi wrote: Who is ahead here? I think it's Leta but he invested a hell of lot into that harass and tempest had his nexus up way earlier than Leta's CC.
Leta has double the workers. that's all you need to know.
On June 20 2011 20:45 kuroshiroi wrote: Who is ahead here? I think it's Leta but he invested a hell of lot into that harass and tempest had his nexus up way earlier than Leta's CC.
Leta by a country mile
faster 3rd harass means earlier nat meant nothing so many probe deaths
On June 20 2011 20:45 kuroshiroi wrote: Who is ahead here? I think it's Leta but he invested a hell of lot into that harass and tempest had his nexus up way earlier than Leta's CC.
Leta by far. He more or less had the perfect bo counter to tempest opening.
On June 20 2011 20:45 kuroshiroi wrote: Who is ahead here? I think it's Leta but he invested a hell of lot into that harass and tempest had his nexus up way earlier than Leta's CC.
leta's ahead. he was able to kill so many of tempest's probes. tempest wasn't able to sufficiently mine from both bases even by the time leta had his CC up
On June 20 2011 20:45 kuroshiroi wrote: Who is ahead here? I think it's Leta but he invested a hell of lot into that harass and tempest had his nexus up way earlier than Leta's CC.
8 facts total 3 stargates total, scan on the stargates 141-136 after that break Leta moving out, just as Tempest is Engagement Seige! Shuttle gets away in the yellow-red area
+1 attack for Leta Tempest dropping probes at 12 Leta has a CC at 9 aswell? Carriers are on the way, only 3 are out Everything of Tempests is melting away Goliaths just rallied off 7 or 8 facts +1 attack complete for air All that blue goo
Golaiths just walking into the main Tanks seiging the 3rd DT is out, but I doubt it'll be helpful Carriers getting focused from all sides GG from Tempest 4-2 CJ
On June 20 2011 20:52 Emon_ wrote: Hard time to be a KT fan Hard time to be a CJ fan
4-2, GG
hard time to be a CJ fan?
CJ's on a roll, lots of different players are stepping up (but some falling down...)
Well I'm definitely hard
Next stop - SKT1
@SkelA - Khan has the most impressive rookie line-up of all the teams. Grape, Brave, Turn and Reality all have unique styles and strengths. Once they find their place in the team and get used to being on the big stage, Khan is dominating everything. Reality just beat both Fantasy & Flash back-to-back. Not to mention Great recently won an MSL silver, Stork won OSL silver and made it to the MSL Ro4. Have some faith, ffs.
CJ needs to start selling off some players to restore some balance among the teams. Right now they have 3-4 Wemades or MBCs worth of players. It's okay if they wait until after stopping SKT from hogging another title, though.
On June 20 2011 23:37 Djagulingu wrote: KT wins autorecommend, CJ wins autonorecommend. Either all CJ players won by doing stupid shit or KT fans are on a rampage.
As a fan of neither team: 3, 5 and 6 are worth watching, imo. Stats vs. Snow was probably the match of the night, followed by Hoejja vs. Horang2 and then Leta vs. Tempest. Not exactly a KT fan rampage, although game 6 probably deserved a bit better than that due to Leta's relentless vulture harass.
On June 20 2011 23:37 Djagulingu wrote: KT wins autorecommend, CJ wins autonorecommend. Either all CJ players won by doing stupid shit or KT fans are on a rampage.
Actual: (Bold is for win; Underline is correct prediction; Notated race is correct race pick, wrong player.)
Hydra <Icarus> Flash BByong <La Mancha> Action (Z) Snow <Neo Beltway> Stats (P) Movie <Alternative> Crazy-Hydra (Z) Horang2 <New Bloody Ridge> HoeJJa Leta <New Empire of the Sun> Tempest <Circuit Breaker>
I predicted 4 of 6 races 3 of 6 players, for CJ Entus. That seems pretty good. On the other hand I went 3 of 6 on race, 1 of 6 on players for KT Rolster. Predicted the team that won 3 of 6 games.
On June 20 2011 20:51 X10A wrote: Carriers getting focused from all sides
understatement of the night! haha
Must've been tired. Let me fix that Tempest's three weakened carriers getting absolutley crushed by Leta's masses of NOT WRAITHS from his NOT THREE PORTS, without ANY NUKES Carriers going down to GOLIATHS from 8 FACTS, BOOM GG
On June 21 2011 03:10 Release wrote: REmeber last year he lost to hiya baby ruby effort and snow? It's all part of his plan to win the PL finals.
Very likely. Players on odd map with odd strategies while they practice KILLER builds for the finals. Just for that, I'm gonna go watch some PL Finals games.
On June 21 2011 02:59 WaterTower wrote: Flash lost again??
Most people said Flash should take a healthy time off and rest his body. He should have listened.
Just when things couldnt get any worse, it did. Bisu will claim #1 in the power rank.
Where is your KT Rolster logo dude? You need one. The worst thing happening to KT is they can't claim 1st and 2nd ranks, which means that they need 4 matches to claim the championship. Last time it happened was SKT1 and 4 out of 6 SKT1 players suffered a huge bo losses in their games. Right now, Bisu claiming PR #1 is so not the worst thing KT may suffer.
On June 21 2011 00:38 Sadness wrote: Has Flash EVER lost 4 games in a row?
It hasn't happened since the beginning of 2009, when he lost to UpMagic, Best, and Leta (x2) again. He lost seven in a row back in the middle of 2007, when he lost to GGPlay (x2), free (x1), Stork (x3), and Rock (x1) all in a row, which is the only time he's lost more than 4 in a row.
So if he somehow loses his first match in the OSL, it'd be his first five loss streak in four years.
Has flash lost like 4 games in a row now? His losses to Best and Jaedong were, you know, expected somewhat (due to prep for the msl finals v Zero) but it's been a while since then and he has crushed Hydra before.
Also, OSL Group A plays tomorrow, so he's facing HyuN who isn't very good. Even so, if he loses to HyuN, he has to win against Jaedong and bogus, which will be hard/impossible. Damnit.
On June 21 2011 07:42 djbhINDI wrote: Has flash lost like 4 games in a row now? His losses to Best and Jaedong were, you know, expected somewhat (due to prep for the msl finals v Zero) but it's been a while since then and he has crushed Hydra before.
Also, OSL Group A plays tomorrow, so he's facing HyuN who isn't very good. Even so, if he loses to HyuN, he has to win against Jaedong and bogus, which will be hard/impossible. Damnit.
if he loses to Hyun, he has to beat hyun and bogus because JD will 2-0, bogus will fall into losers match against Flash, and hyun will fall into final match against flash after losing to JD.
Flash being greedy. Had a 14CC and decided to play his late defense game like in the ever osl. Too bad it was too late.
Damn, I was cheering for KT in this one. CJ needs to lose 1 so the #1 race is over. Well played though. Flash is not looking good. A lot of mistakes when holding off those mutas should have been easy.
On June 20 2011 23:37 Djagulingu wrote: KT wins autorecommend, CJ wins autonorecommend. Either all CJ players won by doing stupid shit or KT fans are on a rampage.
As a fan of neither team: 3, 5 and 6 are worth watching, imo. Stats vs. Snow was probably the match of the night, followed by Hoejja vs. Horang2 and then Leta vs. Tempest. Not exactly a KT fan rampage, although game 6 probably deserved a bit better than that due to Leta's relentless vulture harass.
Nothing to do with being a KT fan; the recommended games i.e. Stats vs. Snow & Hoejja vs. Horang2 were the games of the night. You wouldn't be disappointed watching them. As for the rest of the sets, sure by all means watch them if you have time, but were they good/entertaining games? I wouldn't say so. All were pretty one-sided as well.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uhRzE.png)
Hydra < Icarus > 
Flash
Snow < Neo Beltway > 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O9Te2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KOd4p.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/DGdDf.jpg)
