EPTOn November 12 2004 11:07 cav wrote:
8 rax is cheese.
8 rax is cheese.
Then 9 pool is, as well.
Boxer vs Yellow OGN SemiFinals - Page 26
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PoP
France15446 Posts
Then 9 pool is, as well. | ||
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tomson
Poland641 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:03 taDa wrote: Guys BoxeR found the perfect BO to beat YellOw. That is all there is to it. He put many hours into perfecting the bunker rush and showed that his until control is still solid. That takes a lot of skill. To do it again and again and again. July couldn't adapt -- YellOw couldn't adapt. Looks like they are going to have to put many hours into figuring it out. For the Love of God... | ||
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tomson
Poland641 Posts
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readY_bg
Bulgaria168 Posts
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Shiv
France447 Posts
On November 12 2004 10:56 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: I agree that they pokered, but i repeat again, yellow thought he'd know boxer by now and boxer simply outsmarted him yet again. in yellow's mind it was probably like : "ok he rushed me once and wants me to do a safer build this time, so i'm gonna go for 12exp again". then he was like "damnit he did it again, but only a complete lunatic would 8rax three times in a row because noone would think i'm stupid enough to 12exp again, so thats what i'm gonna do". and yet again " Because -again- that was the smartest thing he could have done." is simply wrong and does not make sense. A build that dies to an 8rax without any chance is NOT a smart thing to do vs someone that 8raxed you before. No matter how often you repeat yourself your argument won't become any better I think it goes a little bit further that "Well you know, I'm YellOw, the REAL badguy, you're not gonna fool me a 3rd time", but the fact is, yes, Boxer did outsmart YellOw. But I also think my point makes sense; you just cannot think: "Oh, he's for sure going to do it again" because your opponent has 8rax'ed you before. You have to start wondering. The only thing Boxer had to do was to draw another plan. He had the lead. When I say the safest/smartest thing he could have done, I simply mean that the odds of winning with a 6/8/9/12 pool when playing someone who only needs to take one win out of the three games left are low. Why? Well, let's suppose you're at the same level as your opponent, one cannot say that he's much better than you. You'll more likely win another game out of three. You don't want to try do-or-die. (Yes, I do think that a failed bunker rush equals to death versus a pro-zerg, unless you hurted him pretty bad, and that a bunker rush is cheese.) So in my opinion, YellOw's reaction was not idiotic at all. Boxer had just set a kind of vicious trap. He had the lead... | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 12 2004 10:26 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: Shiv get ouf of yellows/boxer asses. Their is no easy win vs boxer? well check the latest game of july vs him, he ran over him with 2 groups of lings and a group of lurks in what, 10 minutes? If earlier scouting or a pool before hatch bo prevents you from losing the game in 3 minutes, it is NOT worth it? that does not make sense. Yellow doing the best he could and still getting owned twice within 10 minutes? doesnt make sense either. Those maps might not be 100% balanced, but still balanced enough to win if you're the better player, regardless of your race. Boxer made no medics and charged marines at sunkens. You be the judge of that one (boxer of july). And eh.. why do you keep on calling yellow the better player? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander. 8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand. | ||
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Shiv
France447 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:51 Liquid`Drone wrote: 8 rax is not cheese. you 8rax, depot, scout opponent. if he goes for a build order which defends against it, like a 9pool, then you don't bother attacking. you don't lose much. if he 12pools, you're barely behind. if he fast expands, you win. if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander. 8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand. Hum, what's your opinion on 9pool (ZvZ) to six glings and one or two drones to make creep at his base? Isn't it kind of a cheese? | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On November 12 2004 08:58 iloveoo wrote: Boxer: "I will show everyone the highest level of Terran-Zerg games" thanks a lot faggot He did you fucking dumbass. The people who still are bitching about sucky games need to stfu. Just becase Boxer introduced a not widely used strategy to force his strongest game on Yellow and wins cuz Yellow couldn't handle it, you bitch. Nobody is gonna win a micro war against Boxer, especially TvZ, It's a new method. If you weren't fucking noobies you could realize that his 5 scv + 1 marine rush was similar to any type of opening harass, I.E. Terran wall harass with goon in PvT. God I am fucking sick of hearing it. I'm sad Yellow lost too, but it's ENTIRELY Yellow's fault. | ||
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ky[Z]
China1730 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:58 Ack1027 wrote: He did you fucking dumbass. The people who still are bitching about sucky games need to stfu. Just becase Boxer introduced a not widely used strategy to force his strongest game on Yellow and wins cuz Yellow couldn't handle it, you bitch. Nobody is gonna win a micro war against Boxer, especially TvZ, It's a new method. If you weren't fucking noobies you could realize that his 5 scv + 1 marine rush was similar to any type of opening harass, I.E. Terran wall harass with goon in PvT. God I am fucking sick of hearing it. I'm sad Yellow lost too, but it's ENTIRELY Yellow's fault. lol, but r the right. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:32 Shiv wrote: I think it goes a little bit further that "Well you know, I'm YellOw, the REAL badguy, you're not gonna fool me a 3rd time", but the fact is, yes, Boxer did outsmart YellOw. But I also think my point makes sense; you just cannot think: "Oh, he's for sure going to do it again" because your opponent has 8rax'ed you before. You have to start wondering. The only thing Boxer had to do was to draw another plan. He had the lead. When I say the safest/smartest thing he could have done, I simply mean that the odds of winning with a 6/8/9/12 pool when playing someone who only needs to take one win out of the three games left are low. Why? Well, let's suppose you're at the same level as your opponent, one cannot say that he's much better than you. You'll more likely win another game out of three. You don't want to try do-or-die. (Yes, I do think that a failed bunker rush equals to death versus a pro-zerg, unless you hurted him pretty bad, and that a bunker rush is cheese.) So in my opinion, YellOw's reaction was not idiotic at all. Boxer had just set a kind of vicious trap. He had the lead... i'm kinda wasting my time here because you either do not completely read my posts or you don't completely understand them. a) Never have i said he would "for sure" do that again, but there was the possibilty, i'd even say it was 50/50 that he'd do it again. And b) again you are not making sense. Yellow did do-or-die that's what you fail to understand obviously. Playing 12pool 12hatch or a similar safe build order puts you behind only very slightly if he play 10/12rax and even gives you an advantage if he does 8rax. a 6-9 pool obviously only would succeed if he finds you on the last spot and has a ralley point with his barracks to your base, so you can catch him pants down and kill one or two marines while they are in the middle of the map, but going 12expand is a sure death vs boxer 8raxing, thus his chances on average would've been A LOT higher if he had done a safer build order. Boxer may have one of the best tvzs at the moment, but saying that someone as skilled as yellow would automatically lose to him if he has 1 or 2 drones less within the first 3 minutes is utter bullshit. you could also refer to it as a stochastical problem, like: you have option a and option b, do hatch->pool or pool->hatch. if you do a) and he plays safe you have 50%chance to win, assuming yellow and boxer are both equally skilled, if he does 8rax you have 0% chance to win, or lets say 10% if you somehow luck out, which means you have expected probability (germanism... i don't know any mathemathical terms in english)to win the game of 1/2 * 1/2 + 1/2* 1/10 = 30%. If you do a safe build and he plays 10/12 your chances may only be 40%, if he does 8rax you have lets say 60%. Which means 1/2 * 4/10 + 1/2 * 6/10 = 50% i just wanna clarify my point, don't nail me on exact numbers, but without any knowledge of boxer's build, the smartest choice would always have been to 12pool 11hatch or maybe 10hatch 9pool, whatever. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
basically cheese is something that requires you to get lucky with your opponent's location (him scouting the wrong place) or him not playing as good as he could/should to win. a build where you deny him scouting capabilities and then do something he needs to scout to beat (like say, making a fast zealot in ramp so his scv doesn't get inside your base followed by a carrier rush pvt is not cheese, imo. however building the starport in a random location of the map which he would be perfectly capable of scouting if he scouted is cheese. fast expanding to a random location of the map is cheese. ) proxy gates= cheese proxy rax = cheese cannon rush = cheese 5-7 pool = cheese 9pool can win against any build order if you're good with it. bringing 1-2 drones is something you only do to punish your opponent if he powered harder than he can expect to be allowed to do. in my opinion anyway. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: Boxer made no medics and charged marines at sunkens. You be the judge of that one (boxer of july). And eh.. why do you keep on calling yellow the better player? Well so boxer made a huge mistake vs july, but still july had an "easy win" over boxer. I just wanted to clarify that obviously there have been easy games vs boxer, as well as vs nada or nal_ra or oov. They are not perfect every game and happen to make big mistakes from time to time. And by calling Yellow the better player i just mean that in my opinion yellow would've had an equal or higher chance to win a bo5 series vs boxer right now, had he played a safe build. I think yellow may have some kind of inferiority complex when it comes to playing vs boxer, like "i have to 12hatch and risk getting rushed, if i don't he will beat me in a longer game". At least that is the best explanation to come up with why he was stupid enough to play the way he did | ||
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Splendid
United States115 Posts
On November 12 2004 09:56 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point. He NEEDED some sneaky lil strat to beat yellow or he was dead. I just hope OOV makes him look like a US east newb for being such a jerk to yellow. He has the most acheivements ever in the SC world and he knows yellow is looking for something to solidify his place but he dosent even give him the benefit of a Real game? So BM :[ This is the most ignorant statement I have ever read pertaining to Starcraft. How long have you been following the Boxer-Yellow rivalry? Boxer has consistently beaten YellOw in series matchup, and this time was no exception - "cheese" or "no cheese". You people are speaking as if you have a sense of entitlement to great Starcraft games. What i saw today was one player getting mentally decapitated by the other. And people hoping that oov will slaughter Boxer (depsite their animosity towards oov before this series) are seriously pathetic. Consider this: Requiem and Mercury are likely to be played three times...I like Boxer's chances. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
Iloveoov TvT 9-9 You're all gonna vote for oov because of this semifinal, aren't you? | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
And 8 rax is NOT cheese, what it makes is put both players at a bad position (Terran not having good eco, Zerg having even worse eco) -> less units -> good for Boxer. As Rek said, this series showed how there's always something new in SC. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
This now applies to Iloveoo and Slaughter)BiO wow, how have you lasted here this long. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On November 12 2004 12:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: its faaaaaar from new tho. :| Yes, but if he practiced so hard for it, I expect it will be differed slightly (just like Gundam push for instance, there were strategies to contain the toss before Gundam), which will make it far more powerful... | ||
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Shiv
France447 Posts
To me, playing a totally safe bo would have been a shitty decision. He wouldn't have make it through three games. Trying to get a strong economy early in the game was in my opinion, the good choice, although very risky. I should have tried to make my self a little more understandable; it wasn't for sure the most safest build, but it was the smartest because if YellOw made it through five minutes, he would've had the lead, thus win with anger. He had lost a shitload of money (poker mode on). He could have played safe, but decided to bet all in one, in order to win a lot. He lost and looked like an ass, even if that was a great move. Drone -> Ok, I pretty much agree with that. So, let's not call a bunker rush "cheese", at least boxer's one. | ||
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