I don't even know the map order but I will edit when someone can tell me!
My only wish is for a great set of games because NaDa got knocked out so this OSL means less to me ;D. It's tonight in twelve hours!
Edit** (Thanks to Pop)
Map order will be:
Pelennor Requiem Mercury Bifrost Pelennor
*edit* This is waxangel, I didn't want to make a new thread so I'll just edit the first post here. I'm running a live text update of the matches in the tl.net irc channel, so come along -_-~
****Also, if you plan on posting results please add a courteous
On November 11 2004 14:04 Ack1027 wrote: Omg I can't wait. I'm staying up all night for live reports. FUCK SCHOOL.
In Boxer I trust~
And what's wrong about that? This is more important than one school day. I might be tired as hell but it's okay because my body will feel all warm because Boxer is one step closer to Starleague hat trick.
On November 11 2004 14:37 Splendid wrote: My level of happiness can be measured as follows: Boxer winning = NaDa losing So far 1/2 of the equation is satisfied.
Actually, it would be BoxeR winning + NaDa losing = your level of happiness ^^
mm... this is too hard to decide... I know, boxer have been kick yellow's ass too many times, but, yellow's playing better... SO, i take this for yellow, cuz hope never dies!!!
Hah, Yellow Will win, too bad its not Yellow vs Reach for finals though T_T, Im gonna shoutcast this to dave, wooo! OgN StyLE, DRONE SCOUTING< GEEEE GEEEEEEEEEE -.-;; hahha I always get so pumped for these finals!
on one hand we can get yellow's revenge for the plowing that oOv gave him a while ago on the other we can get the arguably best player of all time vs the arguably current best player...
Clash of the titans! OLD SCHOOL! :D BoxeR has everything to lose this battle and word has it he has been playing eighteen hours a day! T_T YellOw has been strong of late and this might very well be his best shot at dethroning! BoxeR does have the map advantage in this one, but I still believe YellOw will win marginally.
Look for some really sexy micro, kinky build orders and of course BoxeR's cheese... this shall be VERY interesting! BRING HOME THE GOLD YELLOW!
Whenever these two meet in battle, they always put on a good show.
I'll do live reports.. Should I start another thread just dedicated to live reports? or stick with this one? Cuz I think it'll be hard for people to follow the report if people keep posting at this rate
On November 11 2004 22:53 JimRaynor wrote: 3 more hours. Luckily 2 weeks ago my friend in Korean bought me an ogn account. First I got to watch reach vs iloveoov live now this.
They are having some 'school, subject: golf game whatever it's called'.
Like seriously. LAME? I feel sad for jinnam (or maybe jinsu but I think it's jinnam) who has to go through this.
They are like sitting in this schoolish sort of enviorment. Except it looks like it comes straight from an ad. Then they are like .. answering stuff about the game out of options and sdhifhsfh this is so.. :/
just about another hour till go time. Sadly I have no Acc so im stuck listening to stories of the game. They should make a Dvd of the entire tourney and all the matches and sell it to me (!)
On November 12 2004 00:56 [BOyGiRl]ShaRp wrote: Can people log on to a same OGN account and watch the live stream together? Or does only one person get to log in?
On November 12 2004 00:56 [BOyGiRl]ShaRp wrote: Can people log on to a same OGN account and watch the live stream together? Or does only one person get to log in?
On November 12 2004 00:59 Waxangel wrote: I'll be doinga live textcast in the TL.net irc channel if I can
Yes I would like to know what the Server is for Tl.net on mIRC happens to be. getting text cast + The possible analysis of many good players from Here of high level Terran play would be very helpfull for my learning.
the idea of student vs master, micro god vs macro king is very exciting though... oov has shown vulnerabilities when players don't allow him to go into his macro madness mode
On November 12 2004 02:53 Brett wrote: yellow do a 5 pool thanks T_T
Well yellow is 95% out now, 5 pool is acutally a very good plan, if it fails people will be more pissed off at boxer, it's a win win situation for yellow
On November 12 2004 02:53 Brett wrote: yellow do a 5 pool thanks T_T
Well yellow is 95% out now, 5 pool is acutally a very good plan, if it fails people will be more pissed off at boxer, it's a win win situation for yellow
mercury is a very big map, so 5 pool is not very good
this is very boxerlike. 1rax before depot isn't that cheesy anyway, it just punishes any risky build order and otherwise makes it a microgame, which is boxers forte.
AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH OMG SO FUNNY AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHhAAHAHAHAHAH sssssssssssiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so awesome go boxer ahaha
although I would've preferred longer games so I would be entertained for a longer period of time here at work, boxer winning 3-0 is just oh oh oh oh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so perfect.
must give boxer credit for being able to pull of 3 consecutive cheese rush.. and yellow credit too for falling for the same strat 3 times on 3 different maps
yellow obviously didn't expect this much cheese from boxer, boxer has legions of fans and they will be disappointed if their beloved emperor cheeses his way to the finals, looks like boxer knew what yellow was thinking and countered him with even more cheese
~ Sigh ~ Sorry yellow fans but you guys should just join our elite army of Boxer fans and hope for a win. I mean better that one of our legends win than Oov right?
On November 12 2004 03:30 Ack1027 wrote: Lmfao same Steve.
~ Sigh ~ Sorry yellow fans but you guys should just join our elite army of Boxer fans and hope for a win. I mean better that one of our legends win than Oov right?
In Boxer I trust
no we don't. we pretty hope oov cheese boxer out in the same manner.
On November 12 2004 03:31 Brett wrote: This is the first and last time I will ever wish for oov to smash someone 3:0. If he doesnt.... its rigged. Absolute sham.
Same here..I hate Oov and like Boxer but I hope Oov kicks his ass with three straight games of cheese rush
Boxer was always known for cheesy, pulled out of the ass strats and tricks, that would throw his opponents off (that's why I never liked him). I can't believe you people act surprised, like Boxer never rushed before.
T_T Reach VS OOV was exiting at least!! Even I'm a big fan of Reach, I really enjoyed seeing it T_T T_T I'm sad. I just heard audiences of mega studio had waited today's match since yesterday evening. Scary peole -_-
none of these maps favour z over t statisticly and the one with the worse record is played twice, so yellow probably felt he needed to take the chance that he could defend a rush. playing safe on these maps would not win the game for him. TT
On November 12 2004 03:42 cYaN wrote: omg...it's about winning. nothing else. boxer did it. get over your own lust for long games and a close series.
could say the same to you and your 'lust' for winning... people arent entertained by something like that. And if its not entertaining, there is no audience.
from using rax before depot builds quite a lot, I can tell you that the goal usually isn't winning right away. you only do that when your opponent uses a risky build order. the goal is forcing the game into your pattern instead of allowing your opponent to play his own game. yellow tried playing his own game and that failed.
would you guys be mad at julyzerg if he won 3 games in a row with 9pools? going 1 rax before depot tvz is no more cheesy than 9pooling is.
On November 12 2004 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote: from using rax before depot builds quite a lot, I can tell you that the goal usually isn't winning right away. you only do that when your opponent uses a risky build order. the goal is forcing the game into your pattern instead of allowing your opponent to play his own game. yellow tried playing his own game and that failed.
would you guys be mad at julyzerg if he won 3 games in a row with 9pools? going 1 rax before depot tvz is no more cheesy than 9pooling is.
On November 12 2004 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote: from using rax before depot builds quite a lot, I can tell you that the goal usually isn't winning right away. you only do that when your opponent uses a risky build order. the goal is forcing the game into your pattern instead of allowing your opponent to play his own game. yellow tried playing his own game and that failed.
would you guys be mad at julyzerg if he won 3 games in a row with 9pools? going 1 rax before depot tvz is no more cheesy than 9pooling is.
On November 12 2004 03:48 geod wrote: Have you paid for your entertainement? You have bought a ticket from Boxer ? It's Boxer' fault or Yellow's fault?
YellOw's fault all the way, as he wasn't prepared well/smart enough to give BoxeR a challenge. Do you think it would be better if BoxeR didn't try his best? :O
No one can blame boxer! His strats were purely ingienious and he shows his intelligence by fooling around with yellow.
-First game he went rax first, normally, the first games in a series is usually played safe by both. -Second game he went rax first, pretty unexpected to go for the same strat twice. -Third game he went rax first, this strat shouldn't normally work very well at mercury, and thats the reason that it worked
You shouldnt blame yellow either. He is really experienced and surely did what he though was best. None of you would be better.
For all of you who doubted boxers skill; remember this series! Conspiracy theories: plz die.
On November 12 2004 03:48 geod wrote: Have you paid for your entertainement? You have bought a ticket from Boxer ? It's Boxer' fault or Yellow's fault?
YellOw's fault all the way, as he wasn't prepared well/smart enough to give BoxeR a challenge. Do you think it would be better if BoxeR didn't try his best? :O
On November 12 2004 04:06 jtan wrote: No one can blame boxer! His strats were purely ingienious and he shows his intelligence by fooling around with yellow.
-First game he went rax first, normally, the first games in a series is usually played safe by both. -Second game he went rax first, pretty unexpected to go for the same strat twice. -Third game he went rax first, this strat shouldn't normally work very well at mercury, and thats the reason that it worked
You shouldnt blame yellow either. He is really experienced and surely did what he though was best. None of you would be better.
For all of you who doubted boxers skill; remember this series! Conspiracy theories: plz die.
It's too bad. I literally was looking forward to this all week... Was gonna check out the VOD's without reading the results, but someone told me it was 3-0 in 3 rushes. How worthless. I don't really blame Boxer or Yellow alone, but collectively I blame both:[ Why couldn't you win Yellow? It's just like the game can't break out of the usual T>Z>P formula in big tournaments and it's becoming boring, too bad.
Wow a paradox championship, I can't decide who I want to get pounded more. Do I want oov to destroy Boxer? or Boxer to show oOV off. Screw that, go ooV. GOO OOV.
that was pure gayness ! i do not deny boxer's timing and ballsy decision making but these maps seriously blew for Z and boxer was goddam lucky with position and scouting. Well, it's part of the game ... gg anyway but i expected more.
boxer didn't win this series as much as yellow lost it. yellow played very very stupid by going for such early hatches after game 1, knowing that boxer had the balls to go for a very early rax into bunker rush, and boxer exploited that deficiency in games 2 and 3
How come you all blame boxer? As drone already said, i doubt boxer expected his strat to work "that" well. Rather blame Yellow for falling for this shit 3! times in a row. I thought highly of yellow before this series, but now i think that July is a much better player overall, he plays smart and forces the terran to play his game, while yellow just plays standard stuff very well. imo someone such as July would've ran over a boxer playing like that
I can't understand how people could possibly believe the game was fixed, no one really benefits from a 3-0 rushrape by Boxer (except Boxer an you can't rigg a game yourself )
I also hoped that this would be the best bo5 ever, but well, that's life. If Boxer wins this and Yellow wins KT-KTF this will be like the best BW-year ever.
yellow fell for thsi cheese 3 times in a row. its his fault...why didnt he 9 pool ?? i would've 5 pooled after the 2nd game --; anyways boxer deserved to win.
On November 12 2004 06:09 eG)HeavenS wrote: yellow fell for thsi cheese 3 times in a row. its his fault...why didnt he 9 pool ?? i would've 5 pooled after the 2nd game --; anyways boxer deserved to win.
Look, if yellow would have been going ninepool to prevent the rush, and boxer changed his strat to just standard defensive, it would only look even more ownage by boxer, fooling yellow into making unnecessary lings. I believe yellow has experience enough to know whats right.
if yellow had 9pooled they'd be leaving the early game phase with nobody in advantage 11-12pool before hatch and yellow would be ahead expand and he's dead. he did the worst thing in every game, against a player notorious for bunker rushing if he has the opportunity to do so.
On November 12 2004 06:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: if yellow had 9pooled they'd be leaving the early game phase with nobody in advantage 11-12pool before hatch and yellow would be ahead expand and he's dead. he did the worst thing in every game, against a player notorious for bunker rushing if he has the opportunity to do so.
DUMB.
Nowhere in that post does it change the fact that boxer is a pansy.
On November 12 2004 06:00 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: How come you all blame boxer? As drone already said, i doubt boxer expected his strat to work "that" well. Rather blame Yellow for falling for this shit 3! times in a row. I thought highly of yellow before this series, but now i think that July is a much better player overall, he plays smart and forces the terran to play his game, while yellow just plays standard stuff very well. imo someone such as July would've ran over a boxer playing like that
Lolz, the funny part is Boxer said in his interview that he beat JulyZerg 5 times in a row with this strat.
On November 12 2004 06:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: if yellow had 9pooled they'd be leaving the early game phase with nobody in advantage 11-12pool before hatch and yellow would be ahead expand and he's dead. he did the worst thing in every game, against a player notorious for bunker rushing if he has the opportunity to do so.
DUMB.
Nowhere in that post does it change the fact that boxer is a pansy.
You equate trying your best to secure victory with being a pansy. I don't understand.
On November 12 2004 07:23 Legionnaire wrote: Yes i can.
Boxer said himself that he'd have changed the BO, if his rush wouldn't have worked, but since it did work and he took a lot of time practicing, why would he change it?
You can't expect Boxer to take more risks to lose, just to entertain fans...
On November 12 2004 07:34 Legionnaire wrote: How about you follow this logic.
The sun is very big. Thus, its quite easy to see that boxer is a pathetic pansy man.
Honestly I'm more entertained by these games than most long games. Boxer is a genious at psycological warfare and intimidation so I don't think these games were boring. Don't you see the higher level of thinking going on here? If you want to see big games with back and forth action you can get that on a replay.
I am very very very sorely disappointed with this semifinals. As people said, this just doesn't appear to be a Yellow versus Boxer matchup! Ugh ... I demand re's! X_X
Boxer a pansy? That's just ridiculous. He simply punished Yellow for carelessly fast expanding, EXACTLY LIKE Kingdom punished Junwi in MyCube OSL semis. Fast expanding without even knowing where your opponent is is suicide vs someone who trained that much and is as strong as Boxer at timing. Doing it three times in a row was utterly stupid. The one to blame is definitely Yellow, although I feel really sorry for him.
Like between Kingdom and Junwi, it's like Yellow couldn't adapt to Boxer's aggressive timing rushes and sticked to the BOs he had practiced. I's not even like he's one of those "sauron zergs" with average micro who can never win without expanding everywhere. Yellow is hands down the best zerg in the world when it comes to ZvT micro. 9 pool would have been a really viable/safe strategy there.
By the way, calling Boxer a pansy is ignoring all the creative/crazy stuff he's done. This guy has balls, and nobody would be criticizing him if Yellow properly countered his rushes.
This was the most disappointing semi finals ive ever seen. I wish boxer loses miserably to oov, but then again, oov is an SKT too.... Im getting sick of tvt finals. Well, at least we got a morbid teacher vs pupil series T,.T
On November 12 2004 07:56 PoP wrote: Boxer a pansy? That's just ridiculous. He simply punished Yellow for carelessly fast expanding, EXACTLY LIKE Kingdom punished Junwi in MyCube OSL semis. Fast expanding without even knowing where your opponent is is suicide vs someone who trained that much and is as strong as Boxer at timing. Doing it three times in a row was utterly stupid. The one to blame is definitely Yellow, although I feel really sorry for him.
Like between Kingdom and Junwi, it's like Yellow couldn't adapt to Boxer's aggressive timing rushes and sticked to the BOs he had practiced. I's not even like he's one of those "sauron zergs" with average micro who can never win without expanding everywhere. Yellow is hands down the best zerg in the world when it comes to ZvT micro. 9 pool would have been a really viable/safe strategy there.
By the way, calling Boxer a pansy is ignoring all the creative/crazy stuff he's done. This guy has balls, and nobody would be criticizing him if Yellow properly countered his rushes.
sure u can blame yellow, but doesnt change the fact that this final was BORING, and nothing like the other semi between oov and reach. I had really high expectation for this match, and thought we would get some long micro intense zvt games, instead we got a 15 minute alltogether cheesefest. Its not like he couldnt have beaten Yellow in longer games, he just did the same strat 3 times which is not creative at all. Also i expected alot more by Yellow so i guess i can blame the both of them for making this arguably the most uninteresting semi final ever. Hands down for Boxer though, for beating his "archnemesis" for the 3242342 time. TvT is about long games though, and i believe he will be eaten by oov.
oov/reach gave us entertainment thus im hoping for oov.
btw elky really desperate terran ? thanks for the "news".
On November 12 2004 06:00 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: How come you all blame boxer? As drone already said, i doubt boxer expected his strat to work "that" well. Rather blame Yellow for falling for this shit 3! times in a row. I thought highly of yellow before this series, but now i think that July is a much better player overall, he plays smart and forces the terran to play his game, while yellow just plays standard stuff very well. imo someone such as July would've ran over a boxer playing like that
july usually opens with pool first, of course he'd run over a bunker rush build order, thus boxer wouldnt have even attempted this kind of thing.
boxer may have been "smart" or whatever but these series of games were awful and completely uninspiring.
On November 12 2004 08:10 Guybrush wrote: sure u can blame yellow, but doesnt change the fact that this final was BORING, and nothing like the other semi between oov and reach. I had really high expectation for this match, and thought we would get some long micro intense zvt games, instead we got a 15 minute alltogether cheesefest.
The games were boring, I didn't deny that.
Its not like he couldnt have beaten Yellow in longer games, he just did the same strat 3 times which is not creative at all.
Yes, and Yellow did the same opening three times in a row, as well.
1st game: Yellow does opening A. Boxer does opening B and rapes Yellow. 2nd game: Yellow does opening A. Boxer does opening B and rapes Yellow again. 3rd game : Yellow does opening A.
On November 12 2004 08:10 Guybrush wrote: sure u can blame yellow, but doesnt change the fact that this final was BORING, and nothing like the other semi between oov and reach. I had really high expectation for this match, and thought we would get some long micro intense zvt games, instead we got a 15 minute alltogether cheesefest.
Its not like he couldnt have beaten Yellow in longer games, he just did the same strat 3 times which is not creative at all.
Yes, and Yellow did the same opening three times in a row, as well.
1st game: Yellow does opening A. Boxer does opening B and rapes Yellow. 2nd game: Yellow does opening A. Boxer does opening B and rapes Yellow again. 3rd game : Yellow does opening A.
8 rax- depot is a 9pool safe build. you won't lose shit. you're a couple of scvs short compared to a depot - 2 rax, but at the same time you don't have to pull several scvs off minerals.
we're not talking about bbs here, nor any proxy raxes. his build was hardly cheesy, it just countered fast exp.
after trying to work through yellow's gamble with the fast expansions and boxer's bunker rush it makes one realize how simple yet complex of a game starcraft actually is
ROFL highest level of terran zerg games hahahaha thats mad funny its sounds like hes proclaiming it.
but in this game there is no real thing that is considered cheap or cheating. there are ways to block this. yellow didnt have to expand all the time.
if boxer brings out all his scvs and yellow canceled his expo or something he would have an advantage in minerals considering how much boxer lost making all his units off his patch
what an amazing player boxer is. i'm utterly astounded after watching those games how this guy thinks. this series will never be forgotten. true sc fans know a good thing when they see it.
On November 12 2004 09:15 Tien wrote: I hope all games will start ending in 5 minutes for you guys so you can tell yourselves how interestingly genious the rushes after every game.
Rushes are unstoppable in Starcraft, that's a known fact.
On November 12 2004 07:56 PoP wrote: Boxer a pansy? That's just ridiculous. He simply punished Yellow for carelessly fast expanding, EXACTLY LIKE Kingdom punished Junwi in MyCube OSL semis. Fast expanding without even knowing where your opponent is is suicide vs someone who trained that much and is as strong as Boxer at timing. Doing it three times in a row was utterly stupid. The one to blame is definitely Yellow, although I feel really sorry for him.
Like between Kingdom and Junwi, it's like Yellow couldn't adapt to Boxer's aggressive timing rushes and sticked to the BOs he had practiced. I's not even like he's one of those "sauron zergs" with average micro who can never win without expanding everywhere. Yellow is hands down the best zerg in the world when it comes to ZvT micro. 9 pool would have been a really viable/safe strategy there.
By the way, calling Boxer a pansy is ignoring all the creative/crazy stuff he's done. This guy has balls, and nobody would be criticizing him if Yellow properly countered his rushes.
sure u can blame yellow, but doesnt change the fact that this final was BORING, and nothing like the other semi between oov and reach. I had really high expectation for this match, and thought we would get some long micro intense zvt games, instead we got a 15 minute alltogether cheesefest. Its not like he couldnt have beaten Yellow in longer games, he just did the same strat 3 times which is not creative at all. Also i expected alot more by Yellow so i guess i can blame the both of them for making this arguably the most uninteresting semi final ever. Hands down for Boxer though, for beating his "archnemesis" for the 3242342 time. TvT is about long games though, and i believe he will be eaten by oov.
oov/reach gave us entertainment thus im hoping for oov.
btw elky really desperate terran ? thanks for the "news".
Well, On the other hand it will be unforgetable and ppl will talking about it forever. I bet in a year or two you'll aslo see that it was really "unusual" (in a positive sence) semi.
On November 12 2004 08:56 smth_puma wrote: The match between Reach and Yellow will interest me more than the final. After the KTF game,my EVER will be over.
i think the same , who will care for the boring TvT games. the fact , that it is OGN final, changes the things a little
with all due respect to yellow, he completely missjudged the situation. there are builds that prevent you from dying to an 8rax and still give you a position where you can easily win if you're the better player in the game, for example 9pool into 3hatch, or 11pool 12 expansion w/e, after losing the first game he should've pulled something like that, or maybe even a 4,5,6pool not only to survive boxers rush that game but also to prevent boxer from rushing again in game 3
Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point. He NEEDED some sneaky lil strat to beat yellow or he was dead. I just hope OOV makes him look like a US east newb for being such a jerk to yellow. He has the most acheivements ever in the SC world and he knows yellow is looking for something to solidify his place but he dosent even give him the benefit of a Real game? So BM :[
omg I cant belive how yellow has lost. Now yellow is much better see KTF . . . Boxer loses in every game , yellow wins in every game. . . . I dont know why he lost omg no commmenttttttttttttt
saying boxer played gay is sort of true, but it was for money and a chance at a championship, so in circumstances like that do whatever you have to to win. however, if someone just repeatedly bunker rushes in practice games or thinks winning with a bunker rush is a legit victory online, they need to rethink their ideals on skill and legitmacy ;d
Im just complaining at the total lack of quality of the games.
I had friday off today and I was gonna spend a part of it relaxing and watching these games. Then I saw the poll which asked if Boxer was a pansy or not and I knew my friday afternoon was ruined, not because he won, but because the games sucked major ass.
On November 12 2004 09:48 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: with all due respect to yellow, he completely missjudged the situation. there are builds that prevent you from dying to an 8rax and still give you a position where you can easily win if you're the better player in the game, for example 9pool into 3hatch, or 11pool 12 expansion w/e, after losing the first game he should've pulled something like that, or maybe even a 4,5,6pool not only to survive boxers rush that game but also to prevent boxer from rushing again in game 3
There is no "easy wins" versus Boxer. And I don't think he missjudged at all the situation. What the hell is 6 pool vs a 8 rax?
What YellOw did was the best he could have done without maphack: hatchery before pool, the only way I could possibly think about not to be behind in middle game versus someone like Boxer. An earlier scouting drone would have been costful, and useless. Nothing else.
Boxer got lucky by mapping, position, whatever. His bo was adapted, he played great, used the game at his advantage. We all know the only thing to blame is the maps they played on. Yes, maps. YellOw didn't choose them. Nor did Boxer. But he was advantaged, and won because he's among the best Broodwar players.
I hope we'll see some really balanced map in the future. Because now, everything's just so wrong...
On November 12 2004 09:56 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point.
Shiv get ouf of yellows/boxer asses. Their is no easy win vs boxer? well check the latest game of july vs him, he ran over him with 2 groups of lings and a group of lurks in what, 10 minutes? If earlier scouting or a pool before hatch bo prevents you from losing the game in 3 minutes, it is NOT worth it? that does not make sense. Yellow doing the best he could and still getting owned twice within 10 minutes? doesnt make sense either. Those maps might not be 100% balanced, but still balanced enough to win if you're the better player, regardless of your race.
Well, I wouldn't call JulyZerg's win an easy win too. But that's another game, another time, another opponent. Different times, places, stakes.
They just played chess. Or poker, or whatever. Boxer's first and second build were early attack directed. YellOw just thought that it would be easy for Boxer to play safe till the end and still manage to win a game. I'm pretty sure he would have done a hatchery-before-pool build in a fourth game if it was bo7. Because -again- that was the smartest thing he could have done.
And, NO, despite those games, I don't think Boxer is better than YellOw; I really think they are kind of equals at the moment. YellOw got unlucky, and such a little advantage become a real burden when you're at such a high level of progaming.
On November 12 2004 10:26 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: Shiv get ouf of yellows/boxer asses. Their is no easy win vs boxer? well check the latest game of july vs him, he ran over him with 2 groups of lings and a group of lurks in what, 10 minutes? If earlier scouting or a pool before hatch bo prevents you from losing the game in 3 minutes, it is NOT worth it? that does not make sense. Yellow doing the best he could and still getting owned twice within 10 minutes? doesnt make sense either. Those maps might not be 100% balanced, but still balanced enough to win if you're the better player, regardless of your race.
vs july, boxer attacked sunkens with no medics and lost all his marines. hence the lurkling runover. boxer threw that game. maybe for all the ogn practicing they did together like someone suggested =D. i think in yellow's opinion, his 2 hat build was fine, and he does not regret it. well maybe now he does, lol.
On November 12 2004 09:56 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point.
Are you serious?
What do you mean by REAL game of starcraft? Boxer prefers short, micro oriented build games to long drawn out macro oriented games. This, however, does not make it any less real.
I think Boxer really wanted to win. He thought a bit and found that the greatest chance of him winning was the early game. But he didn't want to disappoint people into thinking it's a cheese rush, and therefore went barracks at the 8th scv.
However, Yellow had no defense for the early attack! And with Yellow's gg, it looks like a cheese rush.
Maybe it was, but I'm sure it wasn't meant to be one, unless it would secure Boxer a victory.
I agree that they pokered, but i repeat again, yellow thought he'd know boxer by now and boxer simply outsmarted him yet again. in yellow's mind it was probably like : "ok he rushed me once and wants me to do a safer build this time, so i'm gonna go for 12exp again". then he was like "damnit he did it again, but only a complete lunatic would 8rax three times in a row because noone would think i'm stupid enough to 12exp again, so thats what i'm gonna do". and yet again " Because -again- that was the smartest thing he could have done." is simply wrong and does not make sense. A build that dies to an 8rax without any chance is NOT a smart thing to do vs someone that 8raxed you before. No matter how often you repeat yourself your argument won't become any better
Guys BoxeR found the perfect BO to beat YellOw. That is all there is to it. He put many hours into perfecting the bunker rush and showed that his until control is still solid. That takes a lot of skill. To do it again and again and again. July couldn't adapt -- YellOw couldn't adapt. Looks like they are going to have to put many hours into figuring it out.
On November 12 2004 11:03 taDa wrote: Guys BoxeR found the perfect BO to beat YellOw. That is all there is to it. He put many hours into perfecting the bunker rush and showed that his until control is still solid. That takes a lot of skill. To do it again and again and again. July couldn't adapt -- YellOw couldn't adapt. Looks like they are going to have to put many hours into figuring it out.
"Hmmm, let me analyse the replay... He made Barracks on 8?? And Supply on 9 !?!? HOW THE HELL CAN I STOP THIS THING ?!??! SURELY THERE MUST BE A WAY ! In my 5 years of pro-gaming I have never witnessed such genius. I'll have to go through these games for at least a few hours now and maybe, JUST maybe I'll come up with something =["
hmmmmm what u think about making 9 pool ovvi go 10 drones then make 3 zergling and make hatchery ???Yes it isnt so good like 12 hatch because u havent 3 drones but it in not bad 9 pool because is 99% safe. and when boxer says I have beat july 5-0 ?? omg what u mean that july has played serious ? or what ? Boxer has told july I will make rush 5 scv + 2 marines u play standard 12 hatch and try to stopped my rush. try with coming with 5 drones try with make 2 drones 4 ling . . . ..So Boxer strategy was this to make rush, for this he has training and here comes THE BIG BIG GOSUNES of boxer when he makes 3 games same tactic , , , and I am sure in the next game between them, boxer will make same so yellow go 9 pool pls :_
On November 12 2004 10:56 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: I agree that they pokered, but i repeat again, yellow thought he'd know boxer by now and boxer simply outsmarted him yet again. in yellow's mind it was probably like : "ok he rushed me once and wants me to do a safer build this time, so i'm gonna go for 12exp again". then he was like "damnit he did it again, but only a complete lunatic would 8rax three times in a row because noone would think i'm stupid enough to 12exp again, so thats what i'm gonna do". and yet again " Because -again- that was the smartest thing he could have done." is simply wrong and does not make sense. A build that dies to an 8rax without any chance is NOT a smart thing to do vs someone that 8raxed you before. No matter how often you repeat yourself your argument won't become any better
I think it goes a little bit further that "Well you know, I'm YellOw, the REAL badguy, you're not gonna fool me a 3rd time", but the fact is, yes, Boxer did outsmart YellOw.
But I also think my point makes sense; you just cannot think: "Oh, he's for sure going to do it again" because your opponent has 8rax'ed you before. You have to start wondering. The only thing Boxer had to do was to draw another plan. He had the lead.
When I say the safest/smartest thing he could have done, I simply mean that the odds of winning with a 6/8/9/12 pool when playing someone who only needs to take one win out of the three games left are low. Why? Well, let's suppose you're at the same level as your opponent, one cannot say that he's much better than you. You'll more likely win another game out of three. You don't want to try do-or-die. (Yes, I do think that a failed bunker rush equals to death versus a pro-zerg, unless you hurted him pretty bad, and that a bunker rush is cheese.)
So in my opinion, YellOw's reaction was not idiotic at all. Boxer had just set a kind of vicious trap. He had the lead...
On November 12 2004 10:26 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: Shiv get ouf of yellows/boxer asses. Their is no easy win vs boxer? well check the latest game of july vs him, he ran over him with 2 groups of lings and a group of lurks in what, 10 minutes? If earlier scouting or a pool before hatch bo prevents you from losing the game in 3 minutes, it is NOT worth it? that does not make sense. Yellow doing the best he could and still getting owned twice within 10 minutes? doesnt make sense either. Those maps might not be 100% balanced, but still balanced enough to win if you're the better player, regardless of your race.
Boxer made no medics and charged marines at sunkens. You be the judge of that one (boxer of july).
And eh.. why do you keep on calling yellow the better player?
8 rax is not cheese. you 8rax, depot, scout opponent. if he goes for a build order which defends against it, like a 9pool, then you don't bother attacking. you don't lose much. if he 12pools, you're barely behind. if he fast expands, you win.
if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander.
8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand.
On November 12 2004 11:51 Liquid`Drone wrote: 8 rax is not cheese. you 8rax, depot, scout opponent. if he goes for a build order which defends against it, like a 9pool, then you don't bother attacking. you don't lose much. if he 12pools, you're barely behind. if he fast expands, you win.
if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander.
8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand.
Hum, what's your opinion on 9pool (ZvZ) to six glings and one or two drones to make creep at his base? Isn't it kind of a cheese?
On November 12 2004 08:58 iloveoo wrote: Boxer: "I will show everyone the highest level of Terran-Zerg games"
thanks a lot faggot
He did you fucking dumbass.
The people who still are bitching about sucky games need to stfu. Just becase Boxer introduced a not widely used strategy to force his strongest game on Yellow and wins cuz Yellow couldn't handle it, you bitch. Nobody is gonna win a micro war against Boxer, especially TvZ, It's a new method. If you weren't fucking noobies you could realize that his 5 scv + 1 marine rush was similar to any type of opening harass, I.E. Terran wall harass with goon in PvT. God I am fucking sick of hearing it. I'm sad Yellow lost too, but it's ENTIRELY Yellow's fault.
On November 12 2004 08:58 iloveoo wrote: Boxer: "I will show everyone the highest level of Terran-Zerg games"
thanks a lot faggot
He did you fucking dumbass.
The people who still are bitching about sucky games need to stfu. Just becase Boxer introduced a not widely used strategy to force his strongest game on Yellow and wins cuz Yellow couldn't handle it, you bitch. Nobody is gonna win a micro war against Boxer, especially TvZ, It's a new method. If you weren't fucking noobies you could realize that his 5 scv + 1 marine rush was similar to any type of opening harass, I.E. Terran wall harass with goon in PvT. God I am fucking sick of hearing it. I'm sad Yellow lost too, but it's ENTIRELY Yellow's fault.
I think it goes a little bit further that "Well you know, I'm YellOw, the REAL badguy, you're not gonna fool me a 3rd time", but the fact is, yes, Boxer did outsmart YellOw.
But I also think my point makes sense; you just cannot think: "Oh, he's for sure going to do it again" because your opponent has 8rax'ed you before. You have to start wondering. The only thing Boxer had to do was to draw another plan. He had the lead.
When I say the safest/smartest thing he could have done, I simply mean that the odds of winning with a 6/8/9/12 pool when playing someone who only needs to take one win out of the three games left are low. Why? Well, let's suppose you're at the same level as your opponent, one cannot say that he's much better than you. You'll more likely win another game out of three. You don't want to try do-or-die. (Yes, I do think that a failed bunker rush equals to death versus a pro-zerg, unless you hurted him pretty bad, and that a bunker rush is cheese.)
So in my opinion, YellOw's reaction was not idiotic at all. Boxer had just set a kind of vicious trap. He had the lead...
i'm kinda wasting my time here because you either do not completely read my posts or you don't completely understand them. a) Never have i said he would "for sure" do that again, but there was the possibilty, i'd even say it was 50/50 that he'd do it again. And b) again you are not making sense. Yellow did do-or-die that's what you fail to understand obviously. Playing 12pool 12hatch or a similar safe build order puts you behind only very slightly if he play 10/12rax and even gives you an advantage if he does 8rax. a 6-9 pool obviously only would succeed if he finds you on the last spot and has a ralley point with his barracks to your base, so you can catch him pants down and kill one or two marines while they are in the middle of the map, but going 12expand is a sure death vs boxer 8raxing, thus his chances on average would've been A LOT higher if he had done a safer build order. Boxer may have one of the best tvzs at the moment, but saying that someone as skilled as yellow would automatically lose to him if he has 1 or 2 drones less within the first 3 minutes is utter bullshit. you could also refer to it as a stochastical problem, like:
you have option a and option b, do hatch->pool or pool->hatch. if you do a) and he plays safe you have 50%chance to win, assuming yellow and boxer are both equally skilled, if he does 8rax you have 0% chance to win, or lets say 10% if you somehow luck out, which means you have expected probability (germanism... i don't know any mathemathical terms in english)to win the game of 1/2 * 1/2 + 1/2* 1/10 = 30%.
If you do a safe build and he plays 10/12 your chances may only be 40%, if he does 8rax you have lets say 60%. Which means
1/2 * 4/10 + 1/2 * 6/10 = 50%
i just wanna clarify my point, don't nail me on exact numbers, but without any knowledge of boxer's build, the smartest choice would always have been to 12pool 11hatch or maybe 10hatch 9pool, whatever.
basically cheese is something that requires you to get lucky with your opponent's location (him scouting the wrong place) or him not playing as good as he could/should to win.
a build where you deny him scouting capabilities and then do something he needs to scout to beat (like say, making a fast zealot in ramp so his scv doesn't get inside your base followed by a carrier rush pvt is not cheese, imo. however building the starport in a random location of the map which he would be perfectly capable of scouting if he scouted is cheese. fast expanding to a random location of the map is cheese. )
proxy gates= cheese proxy rax = cheese cannon rush = cheese 5-7 pool = cheese 9pool can win against any build order if you're good with it. bringing 1-2 drones is something you only do to punish your opponent if he powered harder than he can expect to be allowed to do.
Boxer made no medics and charged marines at sunkens. You be the judge of that one (boxer of july). And eh.. why do you keep on calling yellow the better player?
Well so boxer made a huge mistake vs july, but still july had an "easy win" over boxer. I just wanted to clarify that obviously there have been easy games vs boxer, as well as vs nada or nal_ra or oov. They are not perfect every game and happen to make big mistakes from time to time. And by calling Yellow the better player i just mean that in my opinion yellow would've had an equal or higher chance to win a bo5 series vs boxer right now, had he played a safe build. I think yellow may have some kind of inferiority complex when it comes to playing vs boxer, like "i have to 12hatch and risk getting rushed, if i don't he will beat me in a longer game". At least that is the best explanation to come up with why he was stupid enough to play the way he did
On November 12 2004 09:56 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point. He NEEDED some sneaky lil strat to beat yellow or he was dead. I just hope OOV makes him look like a US east newb for being such a jerk to yellow. He has the most acheivements ever in the SC world and he knows yellow is looking for something to solidify his place but he dosent even give him the benefit of a Real game? So BM :[
This is the most ignorant statement I have ever read pertaining to Starcraft. How long have you been following the Boxer-Yellow rivalry? Boxer has consistently beaten YellOw in series matchup, and this time was no exception - "cheese" or "no cheese". You people are speaking as if you have a sense of entitlement to great Starcraft games. What i saw today was one player getting mentally decapitated by the other. And people hoping that oov will slaughter Boxer (depsite their animosity towards oov before this series) are seriously pathetic. Consider this: Requiem and Mercury are likely to be played three times...I like Boxer's chances.
This series was GREAT for the sake of SC. This game has gone too long, without any new strats, without new impulses, just going on and on. 90% of the TvZ games in the next week will be 8 rax bunker rush -> Zergs will have to find a way to adapt -> SC gets more intersting again, as it gives players new opportunities to think, to find new strategies, etc.
And 8 rax is NOT cheese, what it makes is put both players at a bad position (Terran not having good eco, Zerg having even worse eco) -> less units -> good for Boxer.
As Rek said, this series showed how there's always something new in SC.
On November 12 2004 08:58 iloveoo wrote: Boxer: "I will show everyone the highest level of Terran-Zerg games"
thanks a lot faggot
On November 12 2004 09:56 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Well boxer had to do what he had to do. I mean theres no way he can beat yellow in a REAL starcraft game at this point. He NEEDED some sneaky lil strat to beat yellow or he was dead. I just hope OOV makes him look like a US east newb for being such a jerk to yellow. He has the most acheivements ever in the SC world and he knows yellow is looking for something to solidify his place but he dosent even give him the benefit of a Real game? So BM :[
He did you fucking dumbass.
The people who still are bitching about sucky games need to stfu. Just becase Boxer introduced a not widely used strategy to force his strongest game on Yellow and wins cuz Yellow couldn't handle it, you bitch. Nobody is gonna win a micro war against Boxer, especially TvZ, It's a new method. If you weren't fucking noobies you could realize that his 5 scv + 1 marine rush was similar to any type of opening harass, I.E. Terran wall harass with goon in PvT. God I am fucking sick of hearing it. I'm sad Yellow lost too, but it's ENTIRELY Yellow's fault.
lol, but r the right.
This now applies to Iloveoo and Slaughter)BiO wow, how have you lasted here this long.
On November 12 2004 12:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: its faaaaaar from new tho. :|
Yes, but if he practiced so hard for it, I expect it will be differed slightly (just like Gundam push for instance, there were strategies to contain the toss before Gundam), which will make it far more powerful...
Ok InFiNitY, I think I understood your point. My bad, we both exactly agree on the same thing - that is to say how things happen in the game, its logic, what's good and what's not, and disagree wether it was a good choice from YellOw or not. To me, playing a totally safe bo would have been a shitty decision. He wouldn't have make it through three games. Trying to get a strong economy early in the game was in my opinion, the good choice, although very risky.
I should have tried to make my self a little more understandable; it wasn't for sure the most safest build, but it was the smartest because if YellOw made it through five minutes, he would've had the lead, thus win with anger.
He had lost a shitload of money (poker mode on). He could have played safe, but decided to bet all in one, in order to win a lot. He lost and looked like an ass, even if that was a great move.
Drone -> Ok, I pretty much agree with that. So, let's not call a bunker rush "cheese", at least boxer's one.
On November 12 2004 12:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: shiv, nah not really
basically cheese is something that requires you to get lucky with your opponent's location (him scouting the wrong place) or him not playing as good as he could/should to win.
a build where you deny him scouting capabilities and then do something he needs to scout to beat (like say, making a fast zealot in ramp so his scv doesn't get inside your base followed by a carrier rush pvt is not cheese, imo. however building the starport in a random location of the map which he would be perfectly capable of scouting if he scouted is cheese. fast expanding to a random location of the map is cheese. )
proxy gates= cheese proxy rax = cheese cannon rush = cheese 5-7 pool = cheese 9pool can win against any build order if you're good with it. bringing 1-2 drones is something you only do to punish your opponent if he powered harder than he can expect to be allowed to do.
Boxer did what he set out to do, play iloveoov in the finals. Seems remeniscent of WCG this year, almost like 2 players that knew they would make it to the finals to face eachother.
On November 12 2004 04:54 Gryffindor_us wrote: Wow a paradox championship, I can't decide who I want to get pounded more. Do I want oov to destroy Boxer? or Boxer to show oOV off. Screw that, go ooV. GOO OOV.
This statement made me extremely satisfied. The purported leader of the "anti-oov fan club" finds it in his little black heart to support oov. Talk about a paradox...
On November 12 2004 11:07 cav wrote: 8 rax is cheese.
Not IMO, its just an offensive build, it doesnt really get owned by any zerg build.
I don't like people complaining about cheese anyway. You just do what you have to do to win. When boxer does his cute stuff, he know they will work. He doesnt fuck up.
On November 12 2004 04:54 Gryffindor_us wrote: Wow a paradox championship, I can't decide who I want to get pounded more. Do I want oov to destroy Boxer? or Boxer to show oOV off. Screw that, go ooV. GOO OOV.
This statement made me extremely satisfied. The purported leader of the "anti-oov fan club" finds it in his little black heart to support oov. Talk about a paradox...
At least oov and reach created some great games.
I guess I'll be added to Abyss's list of dumbasses.
On November 12 2004 08:58 iloveoo wrote: Boxer: "I will show everyone the highest level of Terran-Zerg games"
thanks a lot faggot
haha grow up.
It takes both players to make a super gg. If one player, in this case yellow, can not defend the first attack(cheese or not) from boxer, how do u expect boxer from showing off his possible strats he had in mind?
On November 12 2004 11:51 Liquid`Drone wrote: 8 rax is not cheese. you 8rax, depot, scout opponent. if he goes for a build order which defends against it, like a 9pool, then you don't bother attacking. you don't lose much. if he 12pools, you're barely behind. if he fast expands, you win.
if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander.
8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand.
so you think fast expand is cheesier than 8 rax? wtf?
On November 12 2004 04:54 Gryffindor_us wrote: Wow a paradox championship, I can't decide who I want to get pounded more. Do I want oov to destroy Boxer? or Boxer to show oOV off. Screw that, go ooV. GOO OOV.
This statement made me extremely satisfied. The purported leader of the "anti-oov fan club" finds it in his little black heart to support oov. Talk about a paradox...
At least oov and reach created some great games.
I guess I'll be added to Abyss's list of dumbasses.
Highest level of T v Z play?
BULL SHIT
Your response has no relevance to my post whatsoever.
Oh really? You really are kind of fucked up. My black little heart? I may kid around and say some stuff that sounds outrageous but I don't sound as fucked up as you can. I am not the "purported" leader of the anti-oov club. Maybe I voice my opinion more often than others but what ever! You have to support one of the two, and I support the new guy because he is closer to NaDa than Boxer is and I like NaDa so pFFFFt.
On November 12 2004 16:04 Gryffindor_us wrote: Oh really? You really are kind of fucked up. My black little heart? I may kid around and say some stuff that sounds outrageous but I don't sound as fucked up as you can. I am not the "purported" leader of the anti-oov club. Maybe I voice my opinion more often than others but what ever! You have to support one of the two, and I support the new guy because he is closer to NaDa than Boxer is and I like NaDa so pFFFFt.
On November 12 2004 14:07 wasted wrote: Boxer and Yellow sitting in a tree...
P - W - N - E - D
Oh snap!
lol poor yellow :-( but seriously, I agree with those who say 8 rax isn't cheese only because it's not do or die, it's not randomly based on map positions. Attacking with 1 rax and scvs is merely an option that comes with that build order. In a game, if you 8 rax and the z has done a build that seemingly counters or equalizes the rush, then you can just get a later 2nd rax at like 13 or 14 supply and continue playing as normal. Normally however, you can use the 8 rax option to threaten z with the risk of losing their fast expo... if z scouts the 8 rax fast, you can move as if you are attacking, causing z to pull drones or even cancel expo, then you yourself can pull back and expo or utilize the advantage in some other way. You dont HAVE to attack, cuz 8 rax isn't do or die, its just a strat that provides a variety of different options. It's aggressive and forces the z to respond to you and all the attack options you hold in your hand... personally, i think yellow just mentally shut down and lost so easily because he just couldn't mentally deal with the multitude of attack options that boxer now possessed (especially after winning the first game... cuz that adds another element of whether boxer will actually do the same bo or not in the next game) and so stuck with the same bo and got murdered +_+
I think the real question is whether Yellow will be the same after this. I mean it's one thing to lose 3:0 and quite another to lose 3:0 all to the exact same bunker rush strat even if it is from Boxer. These are the kinds of rapes that can completely destroy a pro's confidence and will to win.
On November 12 2004 11:03 taDa wrote: Guys BoxeR found the perfect BO to beat YellOw. That is all there is to it. He put many hours into perfecting the bunker rush and showed that his until control is still solid. That takes a lot of skill. To do it again and again and again. July couldn't adapt -- YellOw couldn't adapt. Looks like they are going to have to put many hours into figuring it out.
For the Love of God...
lol tomson the last part was supposed to be a joke t.t
On November 12 2004 16:47 Make7UpYours wrote: I think the real question is whether Yellow will be the same after this. I mean it's one thing to lose 3:0 and quite another to lose 3:0 all to the exact same bunker rush strat even if it is from Boxer. These are the kinds of rapes that can completely destroy a pro's confidence and will to win.
No its the kind of loss that makes you want to suicide bomb SK1s team's apartment T_T
On November 12 2004 11:51 Liquid`Drone wrote: 8 rax is not cheese. you 8rax, depot, scout opponent. if he goes for a build order which defends against it, like a 9pool, then you don't bother attacking. you don't lose much. if he 12pools, you're barely behind. if he fast expands, you win.
if you 2rax, you're more "even" against every build. but only better off vs a 12pool, and worse off against a fast expander.
8rax is no more cheese than 9pool is. and definitely not more cheesy than a fast expand.
so you think fast expand is cheesier than 8 rax? wtf?
on most maps (although not on maps like legacy of char), fast expanding is more risky than 8raxing is.
cheese builds get owned if they're predicted, anyone can kill the fast expansion if they know it's coming. there's no build order that gives you an easy win against 8rax.
someone did a thread recently, i believe, on what everyone thought was the most powerful unit in sc. i think it's clear that that is the scv which is the basis for the terran dominance as it puts zerg on early defensive. imagine if a drone > an scv you'd have drone rushes in beginning probably mixed with lings as zerg still is deficient in early worker count
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.ice-designs.net/uploads/Graph.png)
, guys. BoxeR said he's determined and will do everything to win this OSL, didn't he? It's YellOw's own fault he played like crap. 
![[image loading]](http://image.fighterforum.com/showImage.asp?realFile=FFPHOT20041112194756001.JPG)
