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On March 17 2011 12:07 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 20:58 Raii wrote:On March 10 2011 08:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On March 09 2011 23:13 Raii wrote:
Either Flash is getting worse or people are finally getting over Flash's bonjwa status. People are finally showing some really nice moves vs Flash! I am particularly impressed by Tyson and Hyun's plays.
The statement "Never go standard play against Flash" is finally sinking into players.
This is best demonstrated by Stork's recent proxy gate push vs Flash.
Still, Flash is one hell of a final boss to take down. i think the "never play standard against flash" is more of a testament to his skill and bonjwaness than anything. That's exactly what I wanted to imply. However, I do believe that a couple of players can match Flash in skill and mechanics. He's not the only one with that sort of skill. I'd count Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong as people who match Flash in skill. What makes Flash amazing from my point of view is not his mechanics or macro at all, rather, it is his amazing star sense and anticipation. It's as if he reads the opponent's mind. The only way you can "read your opponents mind" is if they play standard. Flash is a bonjwa because you can't beat him without doing something gimmicky/risky.
Uh, no. Have you been following the JD vs. Flash games? The games were both players played standard have almost all been extremely close.
The games that come to mind from EVER OSL 09 onwards:
EVER OSL Ro8 Game 1 (Fighting Spirit): Flash owns JD convincingly.
NATE MSL Finals Game 1 (Match Point): Flash gets owned by 2 hatch muta.
WL 2010 (Match Point): Very close game up until the point where JD forgot consume -_-
Bigfile MSL Game 3 (Fighting Spirit): This is as standard as it gets. Both players play textbook ZvT/TvZ on the most balanced map ever. JD comes out on top.
WCG Korea Game 1 (Grand Line): Extremely close game that JD was probably favored to win up until the point where he suicided a dozen overlords full of ultras/lings/defilers into stimmed marines (on a map that's statistically terrible for ZvT). EIther way, an epic game.
WCG GF Game 1 (Match Point): Very close game that Flash eventually wins after his mech ball just barely holds on two occassions.
WCG GF Game 2 (Tau Cross): I'm sure everyone has watched this epic, epic game.
WCG GF Game 3 (Fighting Spirit): Flash wins pretty easily.
The results hardly seems to suggest that no one can beat Flash without doing something gimmicky/risky. And I'm only counting the period where Flash started dominating and excluding Jaedong's era of dominance where he beat Flash in three Bo5s.
There's a reason why Flash 14CCs against JD so often. Against most zergs, going 14CC is not worth the risk since he's almost certain to beat them by just going standard. Against JD, he realizes that just going standard isn't a reliable way to assure victory, that's why he takes a calculated risk by going 14CC to give himself the edge. This applies to both players. JD too tries to get some kind of edge by going for risky greedy strategies like crazy zerg or getting a 4th base almost at the same time as his 3rd. It's just that right now, Flash is out thinking JD in terms of mindgames and strategies. In terms of skill? It's impossible to say who is better. Personally, I always found Jaedong to be the most impressive player to watch in terms of pure skill (along with Bisu).
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Skill is the total sum of all of your flaws and weaknesses. Flash has the most skill because he wins the most, no matter what the reasons are.
Everyone keeps saying that Jaedong and Bisu are the most "skilled," players without ever giving specific reasons why. If they were more skilled, they would win more. That's just how skill works.
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Flash was out of both individual leagues, now losing to Tyson!? I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Lee Slump Ho is barreling down the hill at top speed. It seems like he's lost that "spark" that makes him so awesome, I hope he get's it back asap. 
Troll... or is it? There's a bit of truth and reality there. You know if the exact same thing happened to JD what the critics would be saying.
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Agh, the troll...it's so powerful, so hard to resist!
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On March 17 2011 14:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skill is the total sum of all of your flaws and weaknesses. Flash has the most skill because he wins the most, no matter what the reasons are.
Everyone keeps saying that Jaedong and Bisu are the most "skilled," players without ever giving specific reasons why. If they were more skilled, they would win more. That's just how skill works.
First of all, it should be apparent that skill in this context is being used to describe something like multi-tasking, and excludes things like game sense and decision making. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that definition, the point is that I, and many others, don't find Flash to be the most "skilled", let alone Flash being so skilled that no player can hope to beat him in a standard game.
Jaedong and Bisu stand out because, in their primes, they were able to exhibit seemingly inhumane displays of "skill" (mainly with their multitasking) that far exceeded any other player from their respective races. On the other hand, there are plenty of occasions where players like Light and Fantasy have shown equally impressive performances as any game by Flash. Flash just stands out primarily because of his superior game sense resulting in his extremely high consistency and the fact that, unlike other Terrans, he has no weak matchup or playstyle. Of course, this assessment is merely from a spectator point of view and maybe there are many aspects of Flash's skill that aren't apparent to a spectator, but from a spectator's point of view, all I can say is that compared to JD or Bisu, I find Flash's multi-tasking and reaction timing inferior. Even the recent Flash vs. JD, where he lost almost 2 control groups in total by not paying attention to his army and reacting quickly enough, is evidence of this. Meanwhile, there are games where you see JD almost flawlessly controlling multiple groups of lurkerlingdefilers, and at the same time having an almost instantaneous reaction to any dropship that enters his line of sight.
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran.
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So the only thing that is a skill in broodwar is multitasking? That's straight insane.
Skills are anything that can be learned. Unless it is an innate physical talent the player has (such as Fantasy's long fingers or something), it is a skill. Macro, micro, gamesense, strategy -- these are all things that you learn. I will not for a second imply that Flash is necessarily better at everything, or even your prime pick of multi-tasking, but everything that Flash is good at besides perhaps his ability to move his fingers quickly is a skill, and those are all the things he wins with.
PS: Jaedong's lost several games to drops that he didn't catch. Flash himself has done it. Jaedong isn't more necessarily skilled than Flash because Flash wins more often with his skillset. You can argue that he is a better multitasker and I don't mind that, but that's not the only skill in the whole game.
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EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll.
On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran.
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On March 18 2011 02:37 ibreakurface wrote:EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll. Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran.
Why ? I found his post is extremely correct, also your post is neither correct nor constructive at all.
Being a developper that has some experience in game making I can confirm that making a perfectly balanced strategy game with 2 (or more) completely distinct races is impossible. Not to mention that maps also affect the balance.
Let Flash play P against Z and he will just get hydra busted like everyone else.
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On March 18 2011 06:10 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 03:11 kamikami wrote:On March 18 2011 02:37 ibreakurface wrote:EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll. On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran. Why ? I found his post is extremely correct, also your post is neither correct nor constructive at all. Being a developper that has some experience in game making I can confirm that making a perfectly balanced strategy game with 2 (or more) completely distinct races is impossible. Not to mention that maps also affect the balance. Let Flash play P against Z and he will just get hydra busted like everyone else. now that's just dumb. we don't know how good flash would be as P, not like it matters anyways. you could say the same for everyone else. would jaedong be as good as he is if he played terran? etc etc Yeah, I'm sure Jaedong's muta micro wouldn't be nearly as good as a terran...
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Q: Who do you think is the greatest player ever and the greatest Protoss player ever? (please don’t pick yourself).
Bisu: Skill-wise it would have to be Flash
from this interview: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198644
End of the discussion.
Also, I found statements like this:
skill in this context is being used to describe something like multi-tasking, and excludes things like game sense and decision making.
insulting to any SCBW player. This is Strategy game, not "who is the fastest in pressing buttons" game.
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Cmon guys we all know that Terran is the best race at a pro level to give consistent results in, it should have been pretty clear by now. For Zergs to gain equal economic level to their opponent, they have to 12hatch every game; sometimes blind. This is inherently risky yet they have to do it or they are immediately behind. The simple fact they almost must 12hatch to give a tight game leads to the Terrans able to take a calculated risk and 14CC, and Flash takes that eco advantage and runs with it. Or they can do the opposite and cheese, the ball is very much in Terrans court early game unless theres it's a pool first in which if it doesn't do damage, the Zerg will probably lose. On the flipside TvZ Terran can 1rax CC and defend any build with good micro, it's the safest standard build of all 3 races for sure.
Protoss is clearly the hardest to be inconsistent, because their totally safe build in TvP is 2gate obs which at the modern pro level is horrible economically. That's why you see them 12/14 nex so much to try and keep on an even footing with 1fact CC, or even the very common 1rax CC now. Plus they have to play the PvZ matchup and we all know what that's like in terms of random all-ins or fake all-ins or just anything that abuses lack of early game map dominance and scouting problems.
I'm not trying to claim imbalance here, because after early game it splits in so many directions its impossible to tell. But in my eyes Terran has the best openings, and early game advantage at the highest level is so important. A lot of Jaedong's games where he beats or at least gives a good game against Flash, he was 3 hatch before pooling in order to try and match economy. I don't think he ever won a game during that period with an unfavourable build order. To me it shows they are perhaps more evenly matched in skill than the statistics would suggest. But we'll never know unless they switched race and played each other or something :p (I heard Jaedong had decent Terran play actually?)
Edit: BTW i thought some people might find these current stats interesting, from Winners League:
TvZ: 60-40 (60%)
ZvP: 51-64 (44.3%)
PvT: 58-49 (54.2%)
By that apparently Z is having a seriously hard time right now.
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On March 17 2011 15:17 Slardar wrote:Flash was out of both individual leagues, now losing to Tyson!? I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Lee Slump Ho is barreling down the hill at top speed. It seems like he's lost that "spark" that makes him so awesome, I hope he get's it back asap. Troll... or is it? There's a bit of truth and reality there. You know if the exact same thing happened to JD what the critics would be saying. Don't try to troll here. Especially that obvious.
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On March 18 2011 03:11 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 02:37 ibreakurface wrote:EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll. On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran. Why ? I found his post is extremely correct, also your post is neither correct nor constructive at all. Being a developper that has some experience in game making I can confirm that making a perfectly balanced strategy game with 2 (or more) completely distinct races is impossible. Not to mention that maps also affect the balance. Let Flash play P against Z and he will just get hydra busted like everyone else.
He implied flash is the best right now because he is terran, and Jaedong would be better if he wasn't zerg.
On March 18 2011 09:10 infinity2k9 wrote:
Cmon guys we all know that Terran is the best race at a pro level to give consistent results in, it should have been pretty clear by now. For Zergs to gain equal economic level to their opponent, they have to 12hatch every game; sometimes blind. This is inherently risky yet they have to do it or they are immediately behind. The simple fact they almost must 12hatch to give a tight game leads to the Terrans able to take a calculated risk and 14CC, and Flash takes that eco advantage and runs with it. Or they can do the opposite and cheese, the ball is very much in Terrans court early game unless theres it's a pool first in which if it doesn't do damage, the Zerg will probably lose. On the flipside TvZ Terran can 1rax CC and defend any build with good micro, it's the safest standard build of all 3 races for sure.
Protoss is clearly the hardest to be inconsistent, because their totally safe build in TvP is 2gate obs which at the modern pro level is horrible economically. That's why you see them 12/14 nex so much to try and keep on an even footing with 1fact CC, or even the very common 1rax CC now. Plus they have to play the PvZ matchup and we all know what that's like in terms of random all-ins or fake all-ins or just anything that abuses lack of early game map dominance and scouting problems.
I'm not trying to claim imbalance here, because after early game it splits in so many directions its impossible to tell. But in my eyes Terran has the best openings, and early game advantage at the highest level is so important. A lot of Jaedong's games where he beats or at least gives a good game against Flash, he was 3 hatch before pooling in order to try and match economy. I don't think he ever won a game during that period with an unfavourable build order. To me it shows they are perhaps more evenly matched in skill than the statistics would suggest. But we'll never know unless they switched race and played each other or something :p (I heard Jaedong had decent Terran play actually?)
Edit: BTW i thought some people might find these current stats interesting, from Winners League:
TvZ: 60-40 (60%)
ZvP: 51-64 (44.3%)
PvT: 58-49 (54.2%)
By that apparently Z is having a seriously hard time right now.
"I'm not trying to claim imbalance here" Why do people always say this while claiming imbalance?
Statistics are horribly inaccurate because of players like flash, as well as a million other reasons like map pools and what not. How would those statistics look if flash was taken out of the picture? He wins so many games he throws those statistics off by quite a bit. I recall a thread that actually did this, took both flash and jaedong out and the statistics were completely different.
Also I could find statistics favoring any race. More zergs qualified for the MSL this season. The MSL last season was 4 zergs in the semifinals. The game is not perfectly balanced, that's impossible, but it's silly to start labeling which race is strongest because the game is balanced enough to make that impossible, and 100% arbitrary/bias theorycrafting.
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On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skill is the total sum of all of your flaws and weaknesses. Flash has the most skill because he wins the most, no matter what the reasons are.
Everyone keeps saying that Jaedong and Bisu are the most "skilled," players without ever giving specific reasons why. If they were more skilled, they would win more. That's just how skill works. + Show Spoiler +First of all, it should be apparent that skill in this context is being used to describe something like multi-tasking, and excludes things like game sense and decision making. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that definition, the point is that I, and many others, don't find Flash to be the most "skilled", let alone Flash being so skilled that no player can hope to beat him in a standard game.
Jaedong and Bisu stand out because, in their primes, they were able to exhibit seemingly inhumane displays of "skill" (mainly with their multitasking) that far exceeded any other player from their respective races. On the other hand, there are plenty of occasions where players like Light and Fantasy have shown equally impressive performances as any game by Flash. Flash just stands out primarily because of his superior game sense resulting in his extremely high consistency and the fact that, unlike other Terrans, he has no weak matchup or playstyle. Of course, this assessment is merely from a spectator point of view and maybe there are many aspects of Flash's skill that aren't apparent to a spectator, but from a spectator's point of view, all I can say is that compared to JD or Bisu, I find Flash's multi-tasking and reaction timing inferior. Even the recent Flash vs. JD, where he lost almost 2 control groups in total by not paying attention to his army and reacting quickly enough, is evidence of this. Meanwhile, there are games where you see JD almost flawlessly controlling multiple groups of lurkerlingdefilers, and at the same time having an almost instantaneous reaction to any dropship that enters his line of sight.
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran.
Since you mentioned that game, I took a closer look at it. Given that Flash factory+starport were extremely late, it's reasonable that he lost marines to burrowed lurkers at bridge chokes. He was saving scans for important moments. As for the massive loss of marines when he attacked 10' clock, same reason: narrow choke, so he had to rush the marines to mineral lines. Other than these scenarios, Flash's reaction time and micro combined allowed him to kill a few flanking lurkers before getting the marines killed.
And since when does carelessly losing units mean inferior reaction time + multitasking? People make mistakes. Just search "bisu shuttle" on youtube.
Btw, it's a strategy game. If a player makes bad decisions, one's micro/multitasking skills can only go so far to make up for the disadvantage. Yes, Flash does have better game sense, and it requires great mindset to respond correctly in a matter of seconds. That's why Flash can keep gaining advantages due to his good decision making skills. I remember there was a FvJ game on Flight-Dreamliner (2010 OSL) where JD mass dropped and Flash cleaned it up well (with good reaction time, too).
....not to mention Flash is still recovering from his wrist injuries?
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On March 18 2011 09:58 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 03:11 kamikami wrote:On March 18 2011 02:37 ibreakurface wrote:EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll. On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran. Why ? I found his post is extremely correct, also your post is neither correct nor constructive at all. Being a developper that has some experience in game making I can confirm that making a perfectly balanced strategy game with 2 (or more) completely distinct races is impossible. Not to mention that maps also affect the balance. Let Flash play P against Z and he will just get hydra busted like everyone else. He implied flash is the best right now because he is terran, and Jaedong would be better if he wasn't zerg. Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:10 infinity2k9 wrote:
Cmon guys we all know that Terran is the best race at a pro level to give consistent results in, it should have been pretty clear by now. For Zergs to gain equal economic level to their opponent, they have to 12hatch every game; sometimes blind. This is inherently risky yet they have to do it or they are immediately behind. The simple fact they almost must 12hatch to give a tight game leads to the Terrans able to take a calculated risk and 14CC, and Flash takes that eco advantage and runs with it. Or they can do the opposite and cheese, the ball is very much in Terrans court early game unless theres it's a pool first in which if it doesn't do damage, the Zerg will probably lose. On the flipside TvZ Terran can 1rax CC and defend any build with good micro, it's the safest standard build of all 3 races for sure.
Protoss is clearly the hardest to be inconsistent, because their totally safe build in TvP is 2gate obs which at the modern pro level is horrible economically. That's why you see them 12/14 nex so much to try and keep on an even footing with 1fact CC, or even the very common 1rax CC now. Plus they have to play the PvZ matchup and we all know what that's like in terms of random all-ins or fake all-ins or just anything that abuses lack of early game map dominance and scouting problems.
I'm not trying to claim imbalance here, because after early game it splits in so many directions its impossible to tell. But in my eyes Terran has the best openings, and early game advantage at the highest level is so important. A lot of Jaedong's games where he beats or at least gives a good game against Flash, he was 3 hatch before pooling in order to try and match economy. I don't think he ever won a game during that period with an unfavourable build order. To me it shows they are perhaps more evenly matched in skill than the statistics would suggest. But we'll never know unless they switched race and played each other or something :p (I heard Jaedong had decent Terran play actually?)
Edit: BTW i thought some people might find these current stats interesting, from Winners League:
TvZ: 60-40 (60%)
ZvP: 51-64 (44.3%)
PvT: 58-49 (54.2%)
By that apparently Z is having a seriously hard time right now.
"I'm not trying to claim imbalance here" Why do people always say this while claiming imbalance? Statistics are horribly inaccurate because of players like flash, as well as a million other reasons like map pools and what not. How would those statistics look if flash was taken out of the picture? He wins so many games he throws those statistics off by quite a bit. I recall a thread that actually did this, took both flash and jaedong out and the statistics were completely different. Also I could find statistics favoring any race. More zergs qualified for the MSL this season. The MSL last season was 4 zergs in the semifinals. The game is not perfectly balanced, that's impossible, but it's silly to start labeling which race is strongest because the game is balanced enough to make that impossible, and 100% arbitrary/bias theorycrafting.
The statistics were just an aside nothing to do with my argument. I just find them interesting, but they are more to do with maps than anything i was talking about. The statistics are not related to my argument, infact they don't even support it so i'm not sure why you'd jump to talking about it. I just pasted cause i noticed them and thought it was unusual PvZ was P favoured and TvZ was so T heavy, whereas normal Proleague was all close to 50%. Again; Nothing to do with my statement about build orders.
If you disagree about what i said why don't you refute it? I don't have a bias in the matter. I'm just stating what i see from the many many games i've watched and whats common knowledge in terms of what builds are best economically. Did you even read it or just pick out my line about imbalance, cause right in the next line i clearly say you can't take early game build orders as the end-all of balance obviously.
On March 18 2011 10:13 horusray wrote:
Btw, it's a strategy game. If a player makes bad decisions, one's micro/multitasking skills can only go so far to make up for the disadvantage. Yes, Flash does have better game sense, and it requires great mindset to respond correctly in a matter of seconds. That's why Flash can keep gaining advantages due to his good decision making skills. I remember there was a FvJ game on Flight-Dreamliner (2010 OSL) where JD mass dropped and Flash cleaned it up well (with good reaction time, too).
If Terran gets into position Zerg drops basically just die as soon as they land though. He used some nice sense to detect it was coming but once he moved back up the ramp it wasn't going to work anyway. Not sure we should take it as a sign of anything. A terran double dropship d-matrix drop like Flash beat Jaedong with before can kill half of the structures in the main base before even the Zerg can get units back there.
Also forgot to mention, Flash's starport was late because he thought he dropped down factory when he hadn't, he explained in interview.
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On March 17 2011 15:17 Slardar wrote:Flash was out of both individual leagues, now losing to Tyson!? I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Lee Slump Ho is barreling down the hill at top speed. It seems like he's lost that "spark" that makes him so awesome, I hope he get's it back asap. Troll... or is it? There's a bit of truth and reality there. You know if the exact same thing happened to JD what the critics would be saying.
He's 28-4 since christmas, wtf are you talking about.
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On March 18 2011 10:19 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 10:13 horusray wrote:
Btw, it's a strategy game. If a player makes bad decisions, one's micro/multitasking skills can only go so far to make up for the disadvantage. Yes, Flash does have better game sense, and it requires great mindset to respond correctly in a matter of seconds. That's why Flash can keep gaining advantages due to his good decision making skills. I remember there was a FvJ game on Flight-Dreamliner (2010 OSL) where JD mass dropped and Flash cleaned it up well (with good reaction time, too).
If Terran gets into position Zerg drops basically just die as soon as they land though. He used some nice sense to detect it was coming but once he moved back up the ramp it wasn't going to work anyway. Not sure we should take it as a sign of anything. A terran double dropship d-matrix drop like Flash beat Jaedong with before can kill half of the structures in the main base before even the Zerg can get units back there. Also forgot to mention, Flash's starport was late because he thought he dropped down factory when he hadn't, he explained in interview.
Flash was bunkering up @ nat. His army wasn't exaclty "in position" (half of it was not even in the base). The point I was trying to make is. Jaedong underestimated Flash's defense, dropped, and moved the lurkers+lings to barracks. I'm not going to point out what he could've done, because I'm not a progamer. From what I could tell, JD made a bad decision to drop Flash. Yes, JD's multitasking was insane before and during the doomdrop, but the decision(s) he made really backfired, and the result showed.
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On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Skill is the total sum of all of your flaws and weaknesses. Flash has the most skill because he wins the most, no matter what the reasons are.
Everyone keeps saying that Jaedong and Bisu are the most "skilled," players without ever giving specific reasons why. If they were more skilled, they would win more. That's just how skill works. First of all, it should be apparent that skill in this context is being used to describe something like multi-tasking, and excludes things like game sense and decision making.
Really? I think that a lot of people on this particular site use "skill" as a short-hand for "skill at Brood War."
On March 18 2011 10:19 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:58 ibreakurface wrote:On March 18 2011 03:11 kamikami wrote:On March 18 2011 02:37 ibreakurface wrote:EDIT: Nvm this guy has to be a troll. On March 17 2011 16:03 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, trying to claim that someone is the most skilled because they win the most just doesn't work for a game like Starcraft because you're relying on the assumption that the game is perfectly balanced. At best, you could maybe say he's the most skilled Terran. Why ? I found his post is extremely correct, also your post is neither correct nor constructive at all. Being a developper that has some experience in game making I can confirm that making a perfectly balanced strategy game with 2 (or more) completely distinct races is impossible. Not to mention that maps also affect the balance. Let Flash play P against Z and he will just get hydra busted like everyone else. He implied flash is the best right now because he is terran, and Jaedong would be better if he wasn't zerg. On March 18 2011 09:10 infinity2k9 wrote:
Cmon guys we all know that Terran is the best race at a pro level to give consistent results in, it should have been pretty clear by now. For Zergs to gain equal economic level to their opponent, they have to 12hatch every game; sometimes blind. This is inherently risky yet they have to do it or they are immediately behind. The simple fact they almost must 12hatch to give a tight game leads to the Terrans able to take a calculated risk and 14CC, and Flash takes that eco advantage and runs with it. Or they can do the opposite and cheese, the ball is very much in Terrans court early game unless theres it's a pool first in which if it doesn't do damage, the Zerg will probably lose. On the flipside TvZ Terran can 1rax CC and defend any build with good micro, it's the safest standard build of all 3 races for sure.
Protoss is clearly the hardest to be inconsistent, because their totally safe build in TvP is 2gate obs which at the modern pro level is horrible economically. That's why you see them 12/14 nex so much to try and keep on an even footing with 1fact CC, or even the very common 1rax CC now. Plus they have to play the PvZ matchup and we all know what that's like in terms of random all-ins or fake all-ins or just anything that abuses lack of early game map dominance and scouting problems.
I'm not trying to claim imbalance here, because after early game it splits in so many directions its impossible to tell. But in my eyes Terran has the best openings, and early game advantage at the highest level is so important. A lot of Jaedong's games where he beats or at least gives a good game against Flash, he was 3 hatch before pooling in order to try and match economy. I don't think he ever won a game during that period with an unfavourable build order. To me it shows they are perhaps more evenly matched in skill than the statistics would suggest. But we'll never know unless they switched race and played each other or something :p (I heard Jaedong had decent Terran play actually?)
Edit: BTW i thought some people might find these current stats interesting, from Winners League:
TvZ: 60-40 (60%)
ZvP: 51-64 (44.3%)
PvT: 58-49 (54.2%)
By that apparently Z is having a seriously hard time right now.
"I'm not trying to claim imbalance here" Why do people always say this while claiming imbalance? Statistics are horribly inaccurate because of players like flash, as well as a million other reasons like map pools and what not. How would those statistics look if flash was taken out of the picture? He wins so many games he throws those statistics off by quite a bit. I recall a thread that actually did this, took both flash and jaedong out and the statistics were completely different. Also I could find statistics favoring any race. More zergs qualified for the MSL this season. The MSL last season was 4 zergs in the semifinals. The game is not perfectly balanced, that's impossible, but it's silly to start labeling which race is strongest because the game is balanced enough to make that impossible, and 100% arbitrary/bias theorycrafting. The statistics are not related to my argument, infact they don't even support it so i'm not sure why you'd jump to talking about it.
If you disagree about what i said why don't you refute it?
Why don't you post some stats to support it? You listed some advantages T has over Z, but Z has advantages over T as well, which don't necessarily add up to an imbalance either way.
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On March 18 2011 10:39 Djabanete wrote:
You listed some advantages T has over Z, but Z has advantages over T as well, which don't necessarily add up to an imbalance either way.
Necessarily no, but
TvZ: 60-40 (60%)
quite irrelevant whether it's a new BO or redesigned chokepoints etcetc.
Like he said, Z has a hard time this season.
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EPT
