EPT[SPL] KT Rolster vs SK Telecom T1 - Page 74
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Hazard
Norway594 Posts
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sinistral
Singapore859 Posts
I'm worried for Fantasy though, seems like he's losing quite a number of straight games now. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On December 15 2010 19:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: /Waves white flag. While I'm not a fan of the TL elitism regarding post counts and join dates, I'll concede that in this case I clearly haven't been around long enough to know that the banter in this thread is par for the course, and just a bit of fun. So, I'll put this down to another step in my BW education, and I promise to "get over myself" and join in the banter in the future. P.S. Cheers to the streamers and the LR thread op. Post counts and join dates mean crap, but some things you do just need to learn, good on ya for being open minded about the skt-kt thing. It's just one of the TL quirks! | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On December 15 2010 16:53 alffla wrote: oh and can someone explain the positional imba in fortress lol o_O don't blame it on the map imba, its the race no seriously, what is P supposed to do? After his 2 gate obviously wouldn't work, T can do pretty much anything since he's ahead by so much. If P goes 1 gate expo/standard, he can get FD'd and heavily punished by early T aggression. If T goes 1 rax expo/standard, he can still block P's aggressive build easily like shown in this game. How is that fair? Flash is an amazing player but sometimes I doubt he can show the level of player/dominance he's shown us if he wasn't Terran. On a side note, so much for T's supposedly "weak" matchup TvP when Flash can easily dismantle one of the best PvT'ers. T has no weak matchup at pro level imo. edit: I also feel like Turrets+Siege are so much better than Cannons+Goons for stopping drop-orientated play. This is because Turrets fire faster than Cannons, and Cannon AI will switch from attacking dropship to unloaded units | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
Its the reason why all protoss players are generally poor performers in individual leagues. Not a single one of them is "perfect" in any way, all of them have some very heavy flaws in their play and people generally know how to abuse their flaws. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On December 15 2010 23:51 lastmotion wrote: don't blame it on the map imba, its the race no seriously, what is P supposed to do? After his 2 gate obviously wouldn't work, T can do pretty much anything since he's ahead by so much. If P goes 1 gate expo/standard, he can get FD'd and heavily punished by early T aggression. If T goes 1 rax expo/standard, he can still block P's aggressive build easily like shown in this game. How is that fair? Flash is an amazing player but sometimes I doubt he can show the level of player/dominance he's shown us if he wasn't Terran. On a side note, so much for T's supposedly "weak" matchup TvP when Flash can easily dismantle one of the best PvT'ers. T has no weak matchup at pro level imo. edit: I also feel like Turrets+Siege are so much better than Cannons+Goons for stopping drop-orientated play. This is because Turrets fire faster than Cannons, and Cannon AI will switch from attacking dropship to unloaded units What a complainer, it's Flash for crying out loud, he's a Bonjwa. So far in PL toss has been doing fine vs terran, but nobody does well against Flash. All of your if P does this then T does that is garbage, a similar argument can be made flip flopping the P and T in these statements. The time to complain about TvP is when terrans across the board are doing well against toss and such a thing is not happening right now. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On December 15 2010 23:51 lastmotion wrote: don't blame it on the map imba, its the race no seriously, what is P supposed to do? After his 2 gate obviously wouldn't work, T can do pretty much anything since he's ahead by so much. If P goes 1 gate expo/standard, he can get FD'd and heavily punished by early T aggression. If T goes 1 rax expo/standard, he can still block P's aggressive build easily like shown in this game. How is that fair? Flash is an amazing player but sometimes I doubt he can show the level of player/dominance he's shown us if he wasn't Terran. On a side note, so much for T's supposedly "weak" matchup TvP when Flash can easily dismantle one of the best PvT'ers. T has no weak matchup at pro level imo. edit: I also feel like Turrets+Siege are so much better than Cannons+Goons for stopping drop-orientated play. This is because Turrets fire faster than Cannons, and Cannon AI will switch from attacking dropship to unloaded units One player has no weak matchups, therefore the race that player plays has no weak matchups. I guess zerg had no weak matchups when Jaedong and Savior were winning everything, too, huh? Ridiculous. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:03 revy wrote: What a complainer, it's Flash for crying out loud, he's a Bonjwa. So far in PL toss has been doing fine vs terran, but nobody does well against Flash. All of your if P does this then T does that is garbage, a similar argument can be made flip flopping the P and T in these statements. The time to complain about TvP is when terrans across the board are doing well against toss and such a thing is not happening right now. Well if you look at it long-term, Terran has been dominating while P has never won many leagues. How can you disqualify the "If this, then that" argument when I'm talking about something as crucial as standard build order? The reasoning is incredibly simple: T can play standard, and fend off P's aggressive build easily while... P can play standard, and risk getting killed by early T's aggression Doesn't look fair to me. But I give no less credit to Flash, he is better than other Terrans. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: One player has no weak matchups, therefore the race that player plays has no weak matchups. I guess zerg had no weak matchups when Jaedong and Savior were winning everything, too, huh? Ridiculous. Your example doesnt work. Savior thrived on 3 hatch play which helped him dominate a ton of Terrans who didn't know how to play verse it. Jaedong still had troubles against Terran even when he dominated. This was also all before T's learned how to react to ZvT's 4 gas hive by transitioning into mech. PvT meta-game has not been developed as drastically over the recent couple of years, except for 12 nex which most Toss pros do not usually use | ||
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
Well if you look at it long-term, Terran has been dominating while P has never won many leagues. Guess what, there is a race out there called zerg and all protoss players struggle against this said race. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:14 Womwomwom wrote: Guess what, there is a race out there called zerg and all protoss players struggle against this said race. Yes, so what? I never said Z never dominated. both Terrans and Zergs have dominated the pro BW scene, but at the same time, most of the time, T has triumped over Z. In order of BW dominance, it was 1) T 2) Z 3) P Why bring Zerg into the discussion at all? | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:13 lastmotion wrote: Your example doesnt work. Savior thrived on 3 hatch play which helped him dominate a ton of Terrans who didn't know how to play verse it. Jaedong still had troubles against Terran even when he dominated. This was also all before T's learned how to react to ZvT's 4 gas hive by transitioning into mech. PvT meta-game has not been developed as drastically over the recent couple of years, except for 12 nex which most Toss pros do not usually use ? PvT has changed a lot, mostly because of the maps. 2 years ago you never saw carriers anymore because Flash scared it out of every toss and arbiters came into the limelight. Since then, mostly in this past year, Carriers have come back in style. Hell, Flash's most memorable TvP losses were from really really viscerally smart and well executed builds by Kal and Stork using carriers. Late game PvT has changed as much as lategame TvZ, both in kind of the same direction: abandon typical unit combination and go into big power units (Terrans going mass tank against zerg, protoss going carrier instead of ground army against terran). Honestly, it seems like zergs are changing the least, atleast to the naked eye. They do do quite a lot of stuff with post 5 hatch timings and different busts that we don't really examine in a cerebral manner. | ||
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11cc
Finland561 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:20 lastmotion wrote: Yes, so what? I never said Z never dominated. both Terrans and Zergs have dominated the pro BW scene, but at the same time, most of the time, T has triumped over Z. In order of BW dominance, it was 1) T 2) Z 3) P Why bring Zerg into the discussion at all? To what discussion? The balance discussion you started in the LR thread? How about whine somewhere else or not whine at all? | ||
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:20 lastmotion wrote: Yes, so what? I never said Z never dominated. both Terrans and Zergs have dominated the pro BW scene, but at the same time, most of the time, T has triumped over Z. In order of BW dominance, it was 1) T 2) Z 3) P Terrans and zergs have always had players that actually push their races forwards instead of stagnating like protosses. Whether it be Jaedong, Boxer, Oov, GGPlay, Savior, Flash, or Fantasy they all have very massive impact on how Brood War plays and thus have always placed their race to be one spot ahead of the competition. Protoss have always lagged behind these geniuses in game evolution, only time where they were truly ahead of the pack was with the Bisu build and that shifted the game enough to make it difficult to believe ZvP was ever a bad matchup for protoss. Recent times show that the only truly successful terrans are Fantasy and Flash (not surprisingly, they're the most *important* terrans introducing methods of approaching matchups), with Flash being the only one winning anything. The rest are a whole wave of zergs of varying quality but also of some importance (Calm, Jaedong, Luxury, Yarnc) - terran isn't really dominating unless you consider Flash to be the only terran player in the world. Dominance =/= Imba, which you seem to be suggesting. The long line of terran dominance was because they simply had the most innovative players forcing people to change their methods of playing the game. I'm bringing zerg into the equation because they're equally, if not the main reason, for the protoss race's failure to achieve anything in individual leagues. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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thopol
Japan4560 Posts
Stats has been pretty good lately, so I'm not surprised to see that. Violet was a PvP sniper in round 1, so I'm really happy to see him winning in another MU. This is particularly sweet because TvP is Fantasy's MU. His loss to Movie was music to my ears. I don't know why I don't like him so much, but there's almost as much value to be had in players you don't like as players you do. I'm really happy to see that Mafia beat Beesuit. I have to see that one. I don't have much like or dislike for either player-- it's pretty comparable to me. I suppose that sounds in Action's favor. Whatever. I'm happy about the results and will be sure to catch those games when I have time. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Ugh, it feels so mean to recommend the games KT won heavily but all three of Action vs Bisu, Violet vs Fantasy and Best vs Flash were a treat to watch. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9174 Posts
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
SKT is no1 in the raking anyways, one little loss doesn't change it, but it will help KT regain momentum. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2342 Posts
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