Set 1 Game 2: Typical what you'd expect from Kwanro, but what you wouldn't expect from Kal. Recommended for the lulz and nice defence in this game. Set 2 Game 1: Good game with an evolving strategy being taken down, but the player executing said strategy not being able to use it to its full potential. Either way the game was pretty exciting a good game overall. Recommended. Game 2: Very strange game where a player starts off with a giant advantage and the other player trying hard to stay in the game. Recommended game for very sick plays although the loser messed up quite a lot too. Game 3: Quick game lulzy game but worst of the series. Semi-recommended for quickness but extremely underwhelming due to previous 2 games.
I am really not sure about Kal's skill level. He seems like one of those guys who got the skill without the result. Recently, Kwanro has done almost next to nothing. I'd give Kal a bit more credit.
On August 17 2010 08:34 dukethegold wrote: I am really not sure about Kal's skill level. He seems like one of those guys who got the skill without the result. Recently, Kwanro has done almost next to nothing. I'd give Kal a bit more credit. ]
Kwanro will just massling Kal .. ill give Kal the 2nd game though
Fantasy vs Zero, not sure who's the favorite. Fantasy's TvZ is often less than spectacular, but Zero isn't any sort of Jaedong to punish it to the full extent. Rooting for Fantasy because he's SKT though. Kwanro vs Kal is probably Kal unless there's some sort of that 'interesting' play that Bisu was claiming there would be.
fantasy should easily take the first game, but the other two are kind of up for grabs. still, he should win at least one of the two.
whereas kal actually managed to get a win of jaedong for once in his life. just that convinces me that he should be able to beat pikachu. especially since this pikachu is missing a light ball.
oh god kal...you're embarassing the protoss race...please...PLEASE IM BEGGING YOU. BISU AND STORK ARE STARTING TO UNSLUMP, ATLEAST DONT MAKE PROTOSS LOOK SO SAD NOW!! T_T
Well played by Kwanro here, this was no mindless attack. He made mutas to force a ton of corsairs and some cannons then simply made hydras. Kal massively overreacted to the mutas.
Good game from Kwanro, bad game from Kal. Kal's marco was particularly bad (800 minerals and about 1.2k gas around the time Kwanro began to threaten with his hydras).
On August 17 2010 12:24 Fenrax wrote: What happened inthe beginning? I missed it because I was searching for working Streams. Something with a lost Pylon I read, but what exactly?
Pikachu killed the only cannon with his ling runby, and then a pylon in the main.
Godzilla sent his zealots to try and counter but were met by mutalisks.
On August 17 2010 12:24 Fenrax wrote: What happened inthe beginning? I missed it because I was searching for working Streams. Something with a lost Pylon I read, but what exactly?
Two of the lings attacking Kal's pylon at the natural were outside the range of the cannon, allowing him to destroy the pylon.
Heh, sorry about the no sound stream. I just got a new headset and that was the problem me thinks. I'll try and fix it for next time if I need to stream by chance.
Kal, I'm begging you to stop embarassing the protoss race and start playing like one of the 6 dragons instead of a d- guy on ICCUP. That last game was embarassing, especially with the wall in placement...
kwanro's plan seems to be to take his nat while preventing kal from getting his at all costs... but kal can simply race through the tech tree if he figures this out :/ and then get complete map control
On August 17 2010 12:42 Ace wrote: ummm wow Kwanro...why expand all the way over there?
For the gas? its pretty standard for zerg on match point.
isn't the gas at 6 easier to defend since there's a narrow choke?
Not really, a good simcity at the top left will fend off a zealot attack. Getting top left means being able to get the min only and then the 4th gas at the 12 oclock.
Getting 6 oclock makes it hard to get the top left since your forces have to travel across the map.
I think effort likes the 6 oclock though. Can't remember what he transitions to though.
On August 17 2010 12:42 Ace wrote: ummm wow Kwanro...why expand all the way over there?
For the gas? its pretty standard for zerg on match point.
isn't the gas at 6 easier to defend since there's a narrow choke?
Not really, a good simcity at the top left will fend off a zealot attack. Getting top left means being able to get the min only and then the 4th gas at the 12 oclock.
Getting 6 oclock makes it hard to get the top left since your forces have to travel across the map.
I think effort likes the 6 oclock though. Can't remember what he transitions to though.
If I remember, he gets fast hive and abuses cracks.
I think he put the hatch there since he was going to camp the high ground at Kal's third, so it's easier to defend since his hydras are there (and shorter reinforcement time).
However he timed it badly and it got raped.
edit: ohohoho lurkers behind the third.
kal's moving out with a small force to attack the third.
good god Kwanro, I don't remember you being THIS bad. This isn't even decision making errors, its some horrendous multitasking and map awareness, bad macro and some baaaaad control..........
Kwanro's lurker placement was pretty bad near the end, right in front where hte zealots sniped it, but he has alot more morphing. Kal's third basically hasn't been mining either.
A drop incoming. But kwanro snipes the damaged shuttle.
How the fuck did you beat Flash a couple seasons back Kwanro.. that was fuckin terrible. Sometimes it even felt like he was just sitting there just staring at his screen.
On August 17 2010 12:59 trulla wrote: what u guys think kwanro did wrong to lose this match?
He played pretty good, good eco and sairs + +1 zealots didn't do much damage...
His attack on Kal's 3rd wasn't succesful but i don't see what else he could've done to win the match.
uh.. no he played very badly. Its clear his mechanical skills are just really really bad and it basically lost the game for him. for one thing, that first zealot rush shouldn't have killed that many drones if he was competent enough to deal with it, and then he dealt with harassment pretty badly in general. Didn't help that he went Mutas vs mass sairs, and his attack at Kal's third was sooo bad, he even left a group of hydra back just sitting around. No scourge to snipe the obs, what the fuck are the ovies for then? Also he failed to defend his fourth gas, so it died.
Also, some horrendous macro. His money peaked at like 1.1k, and then his drones weren't mining for like a minute or so because he's just bad, so it went back to normal.
He should've just gone 3 Hatch Hydra, he would've won easily. Did you see how that pylon was out in front, just waiting to get sniped by Hydralisks that wouldn't get hit by cannon fire? Ugh...
On August 17 2010 12:59 Nesto wrote: can we reward Kal by letting him play against JD in the next round?
Thats so mean to Kal... he gets pretty far in every tournament he's in. And BAM!!! Mother fucking Jaedong is there.... and he always gets eliminated... but thankfully Jaedong's playing Light in WCG and MSL
On August 17 2010 12:59 trulla wrote: what u guys think kwanro did wrong to lose this match?
He played pretty good, good eco and sairs + +1 zealots didn't do much damage...
His attack on Kal's 3rd wasn't succesful but i don't see what else he could've done to win the match.
uh.. no he played very badly. Its clear his mechanical skills are just really really bad and it basically lost the game for him. for one thing, that first zealot rush shouldn't have killed that many drones if he was competent enough to deal with it, and then he dealt with harassment pretty badly in general. Didn't help that he went Mutas vs mass sairs, and his attack at Kal's third was sooo bad, he even left a group of hydra back just sitting around. No scourge to snipe the obs, what the fuck are the ovies for then? Also he failed to defend his fourth gas, so it died.
Also, some horrendous macro. His money peaked at like 1.1k, and then his drones weren't mining for like a minute or so because he's just bad, so it went back to normal.
He should've just gone 3 Hatch Hydra, he would've won easily. Did you see how that pylon was out in front, just waiting to get sniped by Hydralisks that wouldn't get hit by cannon fire? Ugh...
Well Kwanro is actually pretty good but he played this game like shit. He sees the mass sairs and instead of immediately pumping hydras he continues to pump more scourge/muta ->delays overlord speed->and loses any kind of chance to punish Kal for a long time.
On August 17 2010 12:59 trulla wrote: what u guys think kwanro did wrong to lose this match?
He played pretty good, good eco and sairs + +1 zealots didn't do much damage...
His attack on Kal's 3rd wasn't succesful but i don't see what else he could've done to win the match.
uh.. no he played very badly. Its clear his mechanical skills are just really really bad and it basically lost the game for him. for one thing, that first zealot rush shouldn't have killed that many drones if he was competent enough to deal with it, and then he dealt with harassment pretty badly in general. Didn't help that he went Mutas vs mass sairs, and his attack at Kal's third was sooo bad, he even left a group of hydra back just sitting around. No scourge to snipe the obs, what the fuck are the ovies for then? Also he failed to defend his fourth gas, so it died.
Also, some horrendous macro. His money peaked at like 1.1k, and then his drones weren't mining for like a minute or so because he's just bad, so it went back to normal.
He should've just gone 3 Hatch Hydra, he would've won easily. Did you see how that pylon was out in front, just waiting to get sniped by Hydralisks that wouldn't get hit by cannon fire? Ugh...
Well Kwanro is actually pretty good but he played this game like shit. He sees the mass sairs and instead of immediately pumping hydras he continues to pump more scourge/muta ->delays overlord speed->and loses any kind of chance to punish Kal for a long time.
I'm thinking the bigger problem is how horrible his mechanics seem to be. 1.1 mineral peak, pulling drones and forgetting to put them back on mining for at least a minute, bad attack coordination, and some serious multitask problems.
hmm fantasy's turret position is a bit different than the standard on this map...maybe it's more efficient? ehh, i doubt it, because the area behind fantasy's nat is so abusable right now =\
On August 17 2010 13:19 blahman3344 wrote: hmm fantasy's turret position is a bit different than the standard on this map...maybe it's more efficient? ehh, i doubt it, because the area behind fantasy's nat is so abusable right now =\
Actually Zero tried to abuse it and he found out that the two groups of turrets are actually close enough to overlap in range at the center of that gap behind the nap lol
Zero doing a pretty good job stalling fantasy while he goes for fast ultras. He's also taking Fantasy's double gas.
Good vulture runby by fantasy nets him a lot of drone kills from Zero's undefended bases. Mutas eventually come and clean them up, but Zero lost most of his drones in his main.
Doom drop by Zero on fantasy's main, which dies to lots of tanks. Meanwhile, ground forces of hydras/tanks rampage outside the nat and head towards 12.
Zero loses his forces, though fantasy lost a fair bit as well. Zero will be able to remake his army faster though.
On August 17 2010 13:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: Why would you split your forces against Terran mech? Zero could've easily overwhelmed Fantasy's 3rd if he didn't waste so many units on the drop.
Because if all your stuff is one place so is his... The more fronts you can attack on the stronger your play
Fantasy unable to keep up with unit production due to his low econ. He has already dropped below's Zero's unit count (which increases much faster due to having so many bases).
Ulgras pushing on fantasy's tanks on the highground by 12, more lings streaming in. Fantasy losing all his tanks.
On August 17 2010 13:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: Why would you split your forces against Terran mech? Zero could've easily overwhelmed Fantasy's 3rd if he didn't waste so many units on the drop.
On August 17 2010 13:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: Why would you split your forces against Terran mech? Zero could've easily overwhelmed Fantasy's 3rd if he didn't waste so many units on the drop.
Doesn't matter at this point
You are supposed to take advantage of the fact that Terran mech's low mobility.
Anyways Zero proved what Flash did in their previous game was no easy thing to do.
Good game from Zero. Fantasy did some good defense, and one good vulture run by, but he spent too long holed up by mutas and econ was just screwed after.
Argh, he should've taken the centre left expansion. He could've cut the distance in half and took 2 expansions with it. Left him way too open taking the expansions along the edge of the map.
On August 17 2010 13:31 n.DieJokes wrote: I don't think Fantasy has the mechanical skill to beat ZerO the way FlaSh did
It's more like this is why you don't expand upwards on this map and instead should expand toward 3 or 9.
Z can't flank and turrets stop drops etc so easily.
eh I think it could have worked, theoretically it's a much easier four gas and from there he could have crawled down towards the main. It doesn't pressure ZerO at all though and fantasy did not do a good enough or quick enough job setting up his turtle
On August 17 2010 13:35 Ironbear wrote: I wonder how much Zero practices this map due to the 2500 gas he had at one point.
That was because of the vults which massacred his drones. It's always ok to bank gas as Zerg anyway, he of course ended up using all of it very shortly after.
And thus bio into mech joins the ranks of 8 rax overlord snipe, 5 rax, 14cc, and other TvZ builds deemed unbeatable for a week by the crybaby zergs of TL.
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
On August 17 2010 13:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: Why would you split your forces against Terran mech? Zero could've easily overwhelmed Fantasy's 3rd if he didn't waste so many units on the drop.
Because if all your stuff is one place so is his... The more fronts you can attack on the stronger your play
A "fake" drop would've been much more effective (something I wish more zergs would try) forcing Terran to pull some tanks to his main, followed by an allout attack on Fantasy 3rd. Fantasy really didn't have many units at his 3rd base, Zero could've easily overwhelmed him and ended the game right there.
On August 17 2010 13:35 Ironbear wrote: I wonder how much Zero practices this map due to the 2500 gas he had at one point.
Its massing so much gas that allowed him to replenish his forces so quickly in order to overwhelm fantasy. He tried the same thing against Flash, but Flash's D was just ridiculous.
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
Fantasy mined it up pretty well. Zero made it a priority to sweep them up though.
Plus, it's much easier said than done to make some kind of unbreakable defense like Flash did against Zero when dark swarm and 'lings are involved..
Also, I don't think that game proves anything regarding the lategame mech imbalance. Zero had the advantage of being able to skip lurkers and tech straight to ultras (a unit that works against both bio and mech). One of the big problems with the lategame mech transition is that by then, zerg has invested a lot in lurkers.
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
Fantasy mined it up pretty well. Zero made it a priority to sweep them up though.
Plus, it's much easier said than done to make some kind of unbreakable defense like Flash did against Zero when dark swarm and 'lings are involved..
Fantasy started mining up way after the game was pretty much out of hand. His MM force never even left his base. Vastly different levels of skill displayed but it does show that the mech switch isn't as "ez win" as some people made it out to be.
On August 17 2010 13:31 n.DieJokes wrote: I don't think Fantasy has the mechanical skill to beat ZerO the way FlaSh did
True, but we also have to mention a couple things that Zero did in this game that he didn't do good against FlaSh.
First, his mutas survived a long time, providing him secure his double gas expo and giving him high mobility to avoid vulture harass on mid game, and also delaying Fantasy to take a 3rd gas. Then he started making ultralisk quite soon, no gas or money wasted on lurkers. Better choices against bio-> mech i think.
I also think that fantasy didn't make the right choices. Instead of defending the area that could give him 9 oclock expansion and min only (like flash did), he decided to move to the right hoping to take the corner expansion and double gas soon and securing the 12 min only expansion very soon. This way he couldn't defend properly from Zero push on the highest ground between his corner expansion and min only.
On August 17 2010 13:31 n.DieJokes wrote: I don't think Fantasy has the mechanical skill to beat ZerO the way FlaSh did
It's more like this is why you don't expand upwards on this map and instead should expand toward 3 or 9.
Z can't flank and turrets stop drops etc so easily.
eh I think it could have worked, theoretically it's a much easier four gas and from there he could have crawled down towards the main. It doesn't pressure ZerO at all though and fantasy did not do a good enough or quick enough job setting up his turtle
Zerg can abuse the terran's lack of mobility etc much easier though as there are way more potential places to poke at that can be vulnerable. (for example, see how easily zero dropped on tanks at high ground by double gas due to lack of turrets)
When T takes 9, they are much more constricted and areas of vulnerability are much smaller.
On August 17 2010 13:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: Why would you split your forces against Terran mech? Zero could've easily overwhelmed Fantasy's 3rd if he didn't waste so many units on the drop.
Because if all your stuff is one place so is his... The more fronts you can attack on the stronger your play
A "fake" drop would've been much more effective (something I wish more zergs would try) forcing Terran to pull some tanks to his main, followed by an allout attack on Fantasy 3rd. Fantasy really didn't have many units at his 3rd base, Zero could've easily overwhelmed him and ended the game right there.
Did you see all his mines and turrets and jank. Fantasy would at very least have waited to see how much of any drop survived before pulling any of his forces back. I don't think it would have been very effective in this instance but I do like fake drops and would like to see them more often
On August 17 2010 13:41 DarkMatter_ wrote: Also, I don't think that game proves anything regarding the lategame mech imbalance. Zero had the advantage of being able to skip lurkers and tech straight to ultras (a unit that works against both bio and mech). One of the big problems with the lategame mech transition is that by then, zerg has invested a lot in lurkers.
Zero suffered for it by losing like a gajillion drones? What does that count for? He still came back and won.
On August 17 2010 13:31 n.DieJokes wrote: I don't think Fantasy has the mechanical skill to beat ZerO the way FlaSh did
It's more like this is why you don't expand upwards on this map and instead should expand toward 3 or 9.
Z can't flank and turrets stop drops etc so easily.
eh I think it could have worked, theoretically it's a much easier four gas and from there he could have crawled down towards the main. It doesn't pressure ZerO at all though and fantasy did not do a good enough or quick enough job setting up his turtle
Zerg can abuse the terran's lack of mobility etc much easier though as there are way more potential places to poke at that can be vulnerable. (for example, see how easily zero dropped on tanks at high ground by double gas due to lack of turrets)
When T takes 9, they are much more constricted and areas of vulnerability are much smaller.
Wait, is that high ground pod unbuildable? That would make me and Fantasy very wrong >,<
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
Terrible? Have you been watching any of the games where the zerg beats lategame mech? Ultras have always been the key. They may not be cost-effective, but the strategy seems to be to have a strong enough economy that you can just keep throwing ultras at the Terran and wear him down. Ultras seem to be the only way to break the Terran's defense.
On August 17 2010 13:31 n.DieJokes wrote: I don't think Fantasy has the mechanical skill to beat ZerO the way FlaSh did
True, but we also have to mention a couple things that Zero did in this game that he didn't do good against FlaSh.
First, his mutas survived a long time, providing him secure his double gas expo and giving him high mobility to avoid vulture harass on mid game, and also delaying Fantasy to take a 3rd gas. Then he started making ultralisk quite soon, no gas or money wasted on lurkers. Better choices against bio-> mech i think.
I also think that fantasy didn't make the right choices. Instead of defending the area that could give him 9 oclock expansion and min only (like flash did), he decided to move to the right hoping to take the corner expansion and double gas soon and securing the 12 min only expansion very soon. This way he couldn't defend properly from Zero push on the highest ground between his corner expansion and min only.
As someone else said before, I think most of these differences were to due to FantaSy poor pressure with his bio
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
Terrible? Have you been watching any of the games where the zerg beats lategame mech? Ultras have always been the key. They may not be cost-effective, but the strategy seems to have a strong enough economy that you can just throwing ultras at the Terran. They are the only way to break the Terran's defense.
Watch light vs effort series. It was always Hydra/Muta for map control to try and stop the initial MM force from controlling the map. Watch Effort's game againt I forgot who on Match Point right before and you'll see the same thing. Lots of hydra/muta pumping.
Did you see the first game where Effort used ultras against Light and got fucking smashed?
Mutas are tearing up Fantasy's mineral line in his main. So many dead SCVs. The rest of the scvs are forced to run away. Fantasy's marines finally push the mutas out of the main, after taking a lot of damage.
On August 17 2010 13:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Also, I would like everyone to take note on how good and valuable ultras are vs. mech
they are still terrible. The difference is that a player like Light uses his initial MM force to get map control, mines the shit out of the map and gets his expansions up.
Fantasy didn't. When you're facing 30 tanks backed up by mines Ultras are fucking terrible.
Terrible? Have you been watching any of the games where the zerg beats lategame mech? Ultras have always been the key. They may not be cost-effective, but the strategy seems to have a strong enough economy that you can just throwing ultras at the Terran. They are the only way to break the Terran's defense.
Watch light vs effort series. It was always Hydra/Muta for map control to try and stop the initial MM force from controlling the map. Watch Effort's game againt I forgot who on Match Point right before and you'll see the same thing. Lots of hydra/muta pumping.
Did you see the first game where Effort used ultras against Light and got fucking smashed?
To be honest, that game could've been different if Light didn't lose 12+ tanks for no reason. And if it wasn't on Triathlon.
boxeresque drop zero really should have intercepted the drop, but now his spawning pool, ultra cavern, and tech buildings (evo chambers) pay the price nice medic wall!
Fantasy brings out another group and combines it with his existing army. He pushes near Zero's nat, but swarm goes up and he is driven back.
Meanwhile Fantasy brings 2 dropships and drops in Zero's main from the top. The Pool goes down, as does a drone. Zero doesn't micro his units and loses a lurker without burrowing it.
Fantasy loses his 3 oclock, but his drop is tearing up Zero's main.
Zero with not enough units to stop it (and his mutas still at 3), loses his ultra cavern.
Defiler finally tosses up swarm in his main and ultras come to clean up.
Fantasy with a nice medic shield around his bio, takes down the queen's nest and another hatch (as well as 2 ultras).
Zero loses his 10 oclock expo and the hydra den. Fantasy still with a nice medic wall. Only 2 more marines alive in Zero's main but they have like 8 medics protecting them.
11 oclock is destroyed. Zero's main is finally cleared with the Hive intact, but he lost most of his tech.
Fantasy pushing out with another group of m&m and lots of vessels.
Fantasy tries to expo at 6 as well, but loses the scv to a scouting ling.
On August 17 2010 13:59 night terrors wrote: How the hell did this happen?
Fantasy is insane.
ZerO did not prepare for drop. Why? I honest to god can't tell you. He did this against leta too, every fucking terran goes for heavy heavy drop play when there behind. ALL OF THEM, agggh ZerO have you never laddered?
On August 17 2010 13:59 night terrors wrote: How the hell did this happen?
Fantasy is insane.
ZerO did not prepare for drop. Why? I honest to god can't tell you. He did this against leta too, every fucking terran goes for heavy heavy drop play when there behind. ALL OF THEM, agggh ZerO have you never laddered?
He had prepared scourges at his 11oclock expo, but didn't have any at the top of his main. His fault really for not having a defiler there to defend. He fell for Fantasy's threat at his 11
Damn... Good play by Fantasy, I guess. I really felt like Zero was outclassing him, but there was definitely nothing classy about the way he played the second half of that game
On August 17 2010 13:59 night terrors wrote: How the hell did this happen?
Fantasy is insane.
ZerO did not prepare for drop. Why? I honest to god can't tell you. He did this against leta too, every fucking terran goes for heavy heavy drop play when there behind. ALL OF THEM, agggh ZerO have you never laddered?
Yea kind of a bad mistake but you have to give fantasy credit for those hero marines, they had over 10 kills in each of them
On August 17 2010 14:02 oatboy wrote: That was not a great game from fantasy at all, he was getting raped the whole time until zero went full retard and totally gave it away.
Overall it was a poor game by both players, but Fantasy was brilliant from the drop onwards. ZerO's moment of retardation for not burrowing the lurkers or preparing scourges was just that though--a moment.
On August 17 2010 13:59 night terrors wrote: How the hell did this happen?
Fantasy is insane.
ZerO did not prepare for drop. Why? I honest to god can't tell you. He did this against leta too, every fucking terran goes for heavy heavy drop play when there behind. ALL OF THEM, agggh ZerO have you never laddered?
He had prepared scourges at his 11oclock expo, but didn't have any at the top of his main. His fault really for not having a defiler there to defend. He fell for Fantasy's threat at his 11
Thats standard every game preparation though, he should have built a sunken in his main and left behind a group of lings and two more sets of scourge there
one defiler could've defended his main to that drop, even after the scourge fail... he lost so many units.. just one well placed dar swarm may have been enough.
On August 17 2010 14:00 SimonB wrote: I like fantasy, but I don't like people giving him much credit there.
Zero really fucked up. He could've beat that drop easily if he remembered to burrow his lurkers and not just run them into marines.
totally agree, no fucking way Fanta won that game unless Zero let him do that
One lurker would've died before it could burrow, the other would've died a second later. Fantasy's drop was still going to roll him, but perhaps not so much.
How many series have we seen so far this WCG with epic game two's, followed by total disasters on game three from the game two loser? Quite a few now, imo.
I feel so bad for zero D: He played so well the first two games, but fell apart in the second and in this one to poor reaction / scouting timing. This is one of the few times you can definetly feel, "JD wouldn't make these mistakes". He probably would have sniped the two dropships in the second game with his fast reaction timing. I think zero is reaching that kind of play, but he's not quite there yet.
wheres the cloak man, OL's stuck in main wraiths could do serious damage. and now fantasy picking of hydras with wraiths lol. gets all the OL's then cloaks and zero GG's
AGGGHHHHHH I hate Fantasy so much I can't even put it into words. He so damn terrible, if he ever wins a league I will cut any association with Starcraft
On August 17 2010 14:10 Navi wrote: I feel so bad for zero D: He played so well the first two games, but fell apart in the second and in this one to poor reaction / scouting timing. This is one of the few times you can definetly feel, "JD wouldn't make these mistakes". He probably would have sniped the two dropships in the second game with his fast reaction timing. I think zero is reaching that kind of play, but he's not quite there yet.
On August 17 2010 14:10 Navi wrote: I feel so bad for zero D: He played so well the first two games, but fell apart in the second and in this one to poor reaction / scouting timing. This is one of the few times you can definetly feel, "JD wouldn't make these mistakes". He probably would have sniped the two dropships in the second game with his fast reaction timing. I think zero is reaching that kind of play, but he's not quite there yet.
ziziyO
Jaedong has lost in similar fashions before
If you're talking about his game against Flash @ Ultimatum. He had scourge and zerglings there. Flash just D-matrixed the dropships and his super early eBay gave him an upgrade advantage so the lings didn't stop the marines in time for the second drop.
On August 17 2010 14:16 setzer wrote: ro8 matches:
Flash vs Fantasy Bisu vs Kal Jaedong vs Light Pure vs Effort
At least fantasy will be out due to Flash, I don't think Kal's play is up to it so I'll guess Bisu there, Jaedong versus Light will be an epic showdown and possible preview to MSL? I predict Jaedong but it could go either way. Pure vs Effort I think Effort will take it easy.
On August 17 2010 14:14 Letmelose wrote: Cheesier player advances. Let this be a lesson to you Zero.
FTFY.
At leasy kwanro didn't as well, that would just be double the agony.
Zero is the better gamer. Fantasy was the superior player. I've seen Zero lose games like this before, and until he fixes it, I don't believe he deserves to represent Korea. Trust me, I rank Zero very highly, but believe he is not yet a complete player. Fantasy has his flaws too, but knows how to win.
On August 17 2010 14:10 Navi wrote: I feel so bad for zero D: He played so well the first two games, but fell apart in the second and in this one to poor reaction / scouting timing. This is one of the few times you can definetly feel, "JD wouldn't make these mistakes". He probably would have sniped the two dropships in the second game with his fast reaction timing. I think zero is reaching that kind of play, but he's not quite there yet.
ziziyO
Jaedong has lost in similar fashions before
If you're talking about his game against Flash @ Ultimatum. He had scourge and zerglings there. Flash just D-matrixed the dropships and his super early eBay gave him an upgrade advantage so the lings didn't stop the marines in time for the second drop.
Haha yea that was the game I was thinking of, but it was still kind of embarassing to lose like that for Jaedong. Plus the retarded decision to make Gaurdians, and some baad building placements.
He also lost to a vulture before, which was to Canata
On August 17 2010 14:14 Letmelose wrote: Cheesier player advances. Let this be a lesson to you Zero.
FTFY.
At leasy kwanro didn't as well, that would just be double the agony.
Zero is the better gamer. Fantasy was the superior player. I've seen Zero lose games like this before, and until he fixes it, I don't believe he deserves to represent Korea. Trust me, I rank Zero very highly, but believe he is not yet a complete player. Fantasy has his flaws too, but knows how to win.
Especially in TvZ, the 'better' player can often lose if someone finds a hole in their playstyle. That's why reverse sweeps occur more commonly than normal.
On August 17 2010 14:10 Navi wrote: I feel so bad for zero D: He played so well the first two games, but fell apart in the second and in this one to poor reaction / scouting timing. This is one of the few times you can definetly feel, "JD wouldn't make these mistakes". He probably would have sniped the two dropships in the second game with his fast reaction timing. I think zero is reaching that kind of play, but he's not quite there yet.
ziziyO
Jaedong has lost in similar fashions before
If you're talking about his game against Flash @ Ultimatum. He had scourge and zerglings there. Flash just D-matrixed the dropships and his super early eBay gave him an upgrade advantage so the lings didn't stop the marines in time for the second drop.
Haha yea that was the game I was thinking of, but it was still kind of embarassing to lose like that for Jaedong. Plus the retarded decision to make Gaurdians, and some baad building placements.
He also lost to a vulture before, which was to Canata
Um, yesss. But JD did prepare for the drops, so it's not really a similar fashion since Flash played a brilliant tactic. Oh yeah, that vulture one was admittedly bad.
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
I'd rather go back and watch every VOD of televized Canata TvT's than watch that.
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
I would care to disagree with Fantasy's TvT being quite mediocre compared to that of Flash, Leta, Skyhigh, Sea, and Really's (previous to slump though it was never consistent).
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
The way he's been playing today he'll be lucky to get to 6.
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
I would care to disagree with Fantasy's TvT being quite mediocre compared to that of Flash, Leta, Skyhigh, Sea, and Really's (previous to slump though it was never consistent).
I rarely watch terran versus terran, so I'm not the one to judge, but I was under the impression that Fantasy was one of the top terran versus terran players around these days. It's surprising to see you rate him way under the likes of Sea and Really.
On August 17 2010 14:30 akomatic wrote: Flash vs Fantasy and JD vs Light? ro8 tomorrow turned into MSL semis preview.
I believe Flash and Fantasy could end up playing eight matches against one another in a day if both series end up going to the deciding games. A good day for those who enjoy top level terran versus terran play.
I would care to disagree with Fantasy's TvT being quite mediocre compared to that of Flash, Leta, Skyhigh, Sea, and Really's (previous to slump though it was never consistent).
I rarely watch terran versus terran, so I'm not the one to judge, but I was under the impression that Fantasy was one of the top terran versus terran players around these days. It's surprising to see you rate him way under the likes of Sea and Really.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
I'm happy that Fantasy won. I'm sad becouse Zero is out. My two favorite, the most beloved players played together and one of them was destined to lose. Why are you even surprised that Fantasy won against Zero? o.O He's in well shape now, and his vZ is better than ever. Learn that guy who is switching his style of play every single match is no longer "gimmick", becouse nobody can predict what he will do next. He's still far from being S-class TvZ monster like Flash or Light, but he is better vZ than some of you may thinking. Ironically, the least impressive matchup from Fantasy is IMO TvT, where he really have some nemesises- skyhigh, light, flash etc. No metter the statistics and some very bad vZ games, he still is able to beat ANY zerg in single MU and most of Zergs in BoX. The same cannot be said about his TvT. Also, ROTFL at haters rage. Last time i saw something like that was when go.go was winning.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
It was great to see a Zerg finally smash bio-->mech on PR. That was a great game by Zero, and it proved that Flash is fucking great. :D Game 2 and 3 made me want to cry though.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
Which 50 % are cheese ala proxy something or bunker rush ...
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
Which 50 % are cheese ala proxy something or bunker rush ...
Not even close. I don't get the Fantasy hate either, he's incredibly skilled, and incredibly smart about the game. I kind of see why Flash fans pile on him, because maybe they see him as a threat. (They'd never admit it though.) I can sort of see why Jaedong fans might not like him, as he's delivered as many quality wins against JD, as JD has against him. But it's hard for me to see why other people don't like him. I mean, he's like the anti-Shine, he's got a plan for each stage of the game, and it's always really entertaining.
His last two games against ZerO were extremely well played.
Also, Flash and SH are the only two players whom I would say have better TvT than fanta, and I'm not completely sure about it. Leta? Sea? Neither are as good as fantasy in the MU.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
Which 50 % are cheese ala proxy something or bunker rush ...
Not even close. I don't get the Fantasy hate either, he's incredibly skilled, and incredibly smart about the game. I kind of see why Flash fans pile on him, because maybe they see him as a threat. (They'd never admit it though.) I can sort of see why Jaedong fans might not like him, as he's delivered as many quality wins against JD, as JD has against him. But it's hard for me to see why other people don't like him. I mean, he's like the anti-Shine, he's got a plan for each stage of the game, and it's always really entertaining.
His last two games against ZerO were extremely well played.
Also, Flash and SH are the only two players whom I would say have better TvT than fanta, and I'm not completely sure about it. Leta? Sea? Neither are as good as fantasy in the MU.
Well, hate isn't always based on skill or style. Fanboyism is hardly ever rational. I dislike players because of the way they look or because they're associated with a certain team.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
Which 50 % are cheese ala proxy something or bunker rush ...
Not even close. I don't get the Fantasy hate either, he's incredibly skilled, and incredibly smart about the game. I kind of see why Flash fans pile on him, because maybe they see him as a threat. (They'd never admit it though.) I can sort of see why Jaedong fans might not like him, as he's delivered as many quality wins against JD, as JD has against him. But it's hard for me to see why other people don't like him. I mean, he's like the anti-Shine, he's got a plan for each stage of the game, and it's always really entertaining.
His last two games against ZerO were extremely well played.
My little theory: some people here are talking shit about fantasy for a long time. They were trying to prove, how bad player he was, how low skilled, how fluke were his wins and that his 2 OSL silvers were just pure accident. Yet he's still wining many matches, so they are angered whenever he's beating a good player, becouse this makes a clear proof they were just wrong. More fanta is winning, more hate occurs. So they are making excuses: fluke, cheese, boxer/oov builds, shity oponents, fluke, stupid oponent mistakes. Srsly, read some of this shit: every win with a new build = Boxer genius, every fail with a new build = Fantasy is a retard. Fantasy is cheesing = he's a cheese fag, Fantasy being cheesed = he's a gimmicky fag. In fact, every defeat proves him being gimmicky and any victory proves that he is just an oov's/boxer cheese pupet.
Everyone overrates Sea and Really for some reason.
Maybe but Skyhigh, Leta and Flash are better at TvT than Fantasy.
Is that why Fantasy has a 3-1 record vs Leta?
The amount of Fantasy hate still suprises me. He uses more different builds in a week then most Terrans use in a year and his games are almost never boring.
Which 50 % are cheese ala proxy something or bunker rush ...
Not even close. I don't get the Fantasy hate either, he's incredibly skilled, and incredibly smart about the game. I kind of see why Flash fans pile on him, because maybe they see him as a threat. (They'd never admit it though.) I can sort of see why Jaedong fans might not like him, as he's delivered as many quality wins against JD, as JD has against him. But it's hard for me to see why other people don't like him. I mean, he's like the anti-Shine, he's got a plan for each stage of the game, and it's always really entertaining.
His last two games against ZerO were extremely well played.
My little theory: some people here are talking shit about fantasy for a long time. They were trying to prove, how bad player he was, how low skilled, how fluke were his wins and that his 2 OSL silvers were just pure accident. Yet he's still wining many matches, so they are angered whenever he's beating a good player, becouse this makes a clear proof they were just wrong. More fanta is winning, more hate occurs. So they are making excuses: fluke, cheese, boxer/oov builds, shity oponents, fluke, stupid oponent mistakes. Srsly, read some of this shit: every win with a new build = Boxer genius, every fail with a new build = Fantasy is a retard. Fantasy is cheesing = he's a cheese fag, Fantasy being cheesed = he's a gimmicky fag. In fact, every defeat proves him being gimmicky and any victory proves that he is just an oov's/boxer cheese pupet.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/47kXZ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g5u8y.png)
Kal vs 
Kwanro
Fantasy vs ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wKK2p.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lZAHM.png)
![[image loading]](http://pds17.egloos.com/pds/201003/14/03/b0039103_4b9c0c76af623.jpg)
That way you can possibly play 8 games with Flash in 1 day XD i think thats wat happens if u win anyway.
