Group A:fOrGG vs Pusan As much as I love Pusan, I can't see forgg losing this. If Pusan does manage to abuse forgg's mediocre tvp, then he will most likely get stopped by Canata. Canata has been a non-stand out player for a long time, and this is his chance to change that.
Group B:Really vs Shine I hate Shine. With a passion. So I hope that Really whoops him. But no matter who wins, Bisu will stomp them.
Whoa, didn't realise this was today! Here's another attempt at an OP from me. Yet again, I'm suprised this hasn't been made yet. If you don't want nooby, biased OP's then make them yourself
on a serious note though: Bisu should roflstomp his group, not really a interesting group. the first group sound like a interesting one with Forgg vs. Canata TvT
On October 14 2009 16:31 Ftrunkz wrote: jumping in the 50 person stream now to secure my spot incase another one doesnt come up ;P.
Hoping for good games :D
Same here.... Roffles, to get verified (if its through livestream anyways) click the "get verified" link and fill out EVERYTHING pay particular attention to the additional comments box. I tried 3 times and then i wrote something in that and they verified me... be nice, kiss a little ass.
On October 14 2009 16:33 BookTwo wrote: instead of whining, go get me an ever osl banner.
why are you even making an OP if you don't even have everything ready?
there are still 30 minutes to the game and maybe someone else was going to make it. or maybe you should have spent those 30 minutes making sure everything is right.
if this OP was made after the game started then it's understandable.
On October 14 2009 16:33 BookTwo wrote: instead of whining, go get me an ever osl banner.
why are you even making an OP if you don't even have everything ready?
there are still 30 minutes to the game and maybe someone else was going to make it. or maybe you should have spent those 30 minutes making sure everything is right.
if this OP was made after the game started then it's understandable.
oh shush. its only a silly banner. there I've found one.
On October 14 2009 16:33 BookTwo wrote: instead of whining, go get me an ever osl banner.
why are you even making an OP if you don't even have everything ready?
there are still 30 minutes to the game and maybe someone else was going to make it. or maybe you should have spent those 30 minutes making sure everything is right.
if this OP was made after the game started then it's understandable.
Oh, an even better banner good ^__^. Canata + Bisu will destory their groups, although I hope they get CRUSHED even though its pretty unlikely. Hey, hero did it once when he is a noname, how about letting shine do it.
On October 14 2009 16:57 BookTwo wrote: aaand, dinner time. warning you now, OP updates will not be fast.
Come on now, if you're gonna not update, let someone else make the op. You made it 47 minutes before the games started. Someone else could have made it.
On October 14 2009 16:57 BookTwo wrote: aaand, dinner time. warning you now, OP updates will not be fast.
Come on now, if you're gonna not update, let someone else make the op. You made it 47 minutes before the games started. Someone else could have made it.
I'm not sure if he spotted that push with his probe. Three vults incoming now, he's got to know for sure now. Push incoming. Sieging up. Starport going up for Pusan. ForGG shelling the nat. Reaver is out though. Break incoming. Reaver and two zealots easily crush the contain.
Reaver harass incoming. Scores a huge hit on scvs. Pusan expanding once again. Wraith coming out and pew pewing the shuttle. Shuttle dies, but reaver lives.
Pusan with a clutch reaver finishes the push off with minimal losses, and takes out 5+ SCVs before retreating. Wraith catches the shuttle, but the reaver lives. Pusan is so badass.
So anyone can translate what they saying while drawing? From the routes they draw i guess something bout mineral hopping outsider style and the possibilities that gives?
ForGG opting for a wall, Pusan lays down a gateway and goes to scout. The observer keeps pointing at the lack of minerals at what looks like the expansion to the right of ForGGs base.
On October 14 2009 16:57 BookTwo wrote: aaand, dinner time. warning you now, OP updates will not be fast.
Come on now, if you're gonna not update, let someone else make the op. You made it 47 minutes before the games started. Someone else could have made it.
One gate core spinning rage for Pusan. Zealot is punching away at ForGG's wall. Scouting probe is exterminated. Factory goes up for ForGG, and he puts down a CC.
Pusan just pounding away at the wall right now with two goons and a zeal, picking off SCVs, rines and whatnot. Tank finally out for ForGG, forces Pusan back.
Meanwhile Pusan has put up a Robotics and tries to break the wall unsuccessfully once again. Reavers once again for Pusan.
This map looks like Outsider to some extent for some reason. Pusan with some more reaver harass, delays science facility. Pusan adding more gateways, up to 6, and expands at 10 oclock.
I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
Pusan lands a huge reaver scarab at 1 oclock expo, killing a good chunk of SCVs. Vultures out for ForGG, harassing expos at 9 oclock. Goons on the way to deal with this. Arbiter out for Pusan.
Pusan taking the mineral only inner base at 3 oclockish. ForGG still turtling on three base. Army pushes out. Pusan with his trademark zealots, and a lot of them.
ForGG remacros up and reestablishes himself in the mid. Drop cleared out by Pusan. ForGG taking 12 oclock inner base. Vultures out, harassing 9 oclock base. Cannons up, but tons of probes go down.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
I really dislike how Terran can harass with vultures while stockpiling gas for tanks and while getting a expo up before protoss when protoss needs to have more bases to stay even with terran.
While vultures harass 9 oclock, Pusan lands another recall into the main, kills the starport and working on supply depots now. ForGG finally clears, but loses quite a bit in the process. Small harass at 9 oclock cleared up.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
I really dislike how Terran can harass with vultures while stockpiling gas for tanks and while getting a expo up before protoss when protoss needs to have more bases to stay even with terran.
and you know what trumps the only unit terran has that can be used to damage a protoss before being maxed with 3/3 grades?
Reaver with 21 kills before it dies kills a majority of scvs at 1 oclock expo. Pusan has complete map control at the moment, it's pretty sickening the amount of orange you see compared to teal.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
I really dislike how Terran can harass with vultures while stockpiling gas for tanks and while getting a expo up before protoss when protoss needs to have more bases to stay even with terran.
and you know what trumps the only unit terran has that can be used to damage a protoss before being maxed with 3/3 grades?
3 pylons.
how come you weren't in either of the prelims this year?
Pusan with more small recalls into ForGG's base, but Pusan's sitting at 153 to 142 right now with definite base count advantage. Nice flank from Pusan, coming in from all sides, but tanks too strong.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
I really dislike how Terran can harass with vultures while stockpiling gas for tanks and while getting a expo up before protoss when protoss needs to have more bases to stay even with terran.
and you know what trumps the only unit terran has that can be used to damage a protoss before being maxed with 3/3 grades?
ForGG pushing into 4 oclock inner base of Pusan, supply counts even right now. 11 oclock lifted for ForGG, armies flying all over the place, shuttles, arbiters all over. Reaver back to kill more SCVs and scores 6 kills and forces a lift at 1 oclock.
On October 14 2009 17:34 Holgerius wrote: I really dislike how Protoss can harass with early units while getting tech for further harassment and still have en expo up almost as fast as the Terran anyway.
I really dislike how Terran can harass with vultures while stockpiling gas for tanks and while getting a expo up before protoss when protoss needs to have more bases to stay even with terran.
and you know what trumps the only unit terran has that can be used to damage a protoss before being maxed with 3/3 grades?
3 pylons.
how come you weren't in either of the prelims this year?
Pusan decides to counter the nat instead of defending 9 oclock, forcing ForGG to pull his units back. Supply count favoring Pusan at 130 to 115 right now, but ForGG has to be feeling the effects of not having many resource fields left. But he has a TON of tanks.
Pusan finally getting HT, 9 oclock expo going down. Pusan rolling units, streames of zealots into the massive tank line, but is getting annihilated by 2/2 mech. 102 to 75 in favor of Pusan, but ForGG is pushing into 9 oclock.
ForGG probably going for a last ditch attempt, but Pusan has too many units just streaming in. Zealots and shit going boom. Pusan's reaver back for more. 36 kills.
Canata tries to run 3 vults in, does no damage and they all get taken out Then he drops 2 vults in main (NEARLY seen by ninja observer), gets like 4 drone kills, stops mining for a good 30 seconds He has as many tanks as Pusan has goons. Possibly more.
On October 14 2009 18:27 Holgerius wrote: Terran vengeance, fuck yeah!
Lol yeah. Canata totally denied Pusan's reaver drop and proceeded to rape his probes with drops of his own. From there Pusan was behind and didn't really have a chance.
On October 14 2009 18:27 Holgerius wrote: Terran vengeance, fuck yeah!
Lol yeah. Canata totally denied Pusan's reaver drop and proceeded to rape his probes with drops of his own. From there Pusan was behind and didn't really have a chance.
Pusan was behind way before that... the moment he went reaver before obs he was behind since canata was allining
Holy shit, this game is starting out with a bang. Canata tries to punish Pusan for the early expansion, but looks like he failed miserably and ended up paying a huge price for it.
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
Yes it was - he went reaver first which was his mistake - with obs he could have defended Tell me what more pusan could have done - his mine sniping was 100% spot on and goon control flawless
Firstly, it wasn't a normal 2fac (cutting scvs etc) so the units were coming quicker than normal. Plus going reaver slows down goon production at that timing hence why it "straight up raped" pusans 2gate
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Ehh he let several mines go down (that subsequently got hit) that could have been picked off with focus fire. I can remember two off the top of my head where exactly one Dragoon shot a mine (while other Dragoons shot others). Not easy to block but pretty crucial when you go Reaver first.
Also taking his Probes and Dragoons too far out of his expo area to chase cost him a bundle of Probes and 1 or 2 Dragoons - did he really think there wasn't going to be more mines right behind the initial area?
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
Yes it was - he went reaver first which was his mistake - with obs he could have defended Tell me what more pusan could have done - his mine sniping was 100% spot on and goon control flawless
are you saying 2-fac up a wide ramp against 2-gate goon range into expo is an autowin? because if pusan was "flawless" then it should win every time -- and there are plenty of games in this scenario where the T fails.
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
2 fac shouldn't straight up rape 2 gate range goon expand (up a ramp no less) the way it did there
I think Pusan was teching to shuttle/reaver when he could have built more dragoons. His defense wasn't actually that bad though since he didn't lose his natural nexus.
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
Yes it was - he went reaver first which was his mistake - with obs he could have defended Tell me what more pusan could have done - his mine sniping was 100% spot on and goon control flawless
are you saying 2-fac up a wide ramp against 2-gate goon range into expo is an autowin? because if pusan was "flawless" then it should win every time -- and there are plenty of games in this scenario where the T fails.
Its by no means auto-win at standard timing. But do you agree that Canata's 2 fac in game 1 was not your typical 2 fac in the sense that he cut scv production?
On October 14 2009 18:50 GTR wrote: 14 nexus is in no way in the world an all-in, it's a standard build which has its pros and cons just like any other pvt build.
GTR please go back and read my post. i didn't say it was all-in, i said it was as allin as 2-fac because Plexa said "Canata allined and deserve the 14nex."
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
Yes it was - he went reaver first which was his mistake - with obs he could have defended Tell me what more pusan could have done - his mine sniping was 100% spot on and goon control flawless
are you saying 2-fac up a wide ramp against 2-gate goon range into expo is an autowin? because if pusan was "flawless" then it should win every time -- and there are plenty of games in this scenario where the T fails.
Its by no means auto-win at standard timing. But do you agree that Canata's 2 fac in game 1 was not your typical 2 fac in the sense that he cut scv production?
wtf is he cutting scv production FOR? you can only make so many units with 2 factories and 1 base, it doesn't matter if you cut scvs or not if you only have 2 factories -- you can constantly produce vultures easily and still make SCVs
he didnt bring scvs and didn't build turrets, he went starport to counter a reaver and had a wraith and expo up well before pusan could get there
i don't see how its any different than a standard 2-fac, the timing isn't any faster
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
his defense was as good as it could be? what game were you watching, you pusan fanboy
Yes it was - he went reaver first which was his mistake - with obs he could have defended Tell me what more pusan could have done - his mine sniping was 100% spot on and goon control flawless
are you saying 2-fac up a wide ramp against 2-gate goon range into expo is an autowin? because if pusan was "flawless" then it should win every time -- and there are plenty of games in this scenario where the T fails.
Its by no means auto-win at standard timing. But do you agree that Canata's 2 fac in game 1 was not your typical 2 fac in the sense that he cut scv production?
wtf is he cutting scv production FOR? you can only make so many units with 2 factories and 1 base, it doesn't matter if you cut scvs or not if you only have 2 factories -- you can constantly produce vultures easily and still make SCVs
he didnt bring scvs and didn't build turrets, he went starport to counter a reaver and had a wraith and expo up well before pusan could get there
i don't see how its any different than a standard 2-fac, the timing isn't any faster
didnt he build like 5 marines? it delayed the 2nd fact by a bit
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
i think you don't understand what an all-in is
whats a "normal modern 2fac" please give me an example, because making 3 tanks and reinforcing with vultures is 100% standard
i don't know what you are talking about when you say "cut scvs" because if you cut SCVs you can make 3 facs off 1 base
On October 14 2009 18:40 Plexa wrote: talk about perfect motherfucking defense right there! bar letting that rine through, that was amazing
talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
i think you don't understand what an all-in is
whats a "normal modern 2fac" please give me an example, because making 3 tanks and reinforcing with vultures is 100% standard
i don't know what you are talking about when you say "cut scvs" because if you cut SCVs you can make 3 facs off 1 base
Just compare expansion timings for 2facs and you'll find that canata's was significantly later than normal
On October 14 2009 18:42 disciple wrote: [quote] talkin about sick ass luck and canata scouting the 12 nex too late
Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
i think you don't understand what an all-in is
whats a "normal modern 2fac" please give me an example, because making 3 tanks and reinforcing with vultures is 100% standard
i don't know what you are talking about when you say "cut scvs" because if you cut SCVs you can make 3 facs off 1 base
Just compare expansion timings for 2facs and you'll find that canata's was significantly later than normal
rallying vultures from 2 factories does not require cutting scvs or delaying cc's. the starport delayed his cc, not the 2-fac. there's no difference in timing or units except for maybe 2 extra marines. i don't know what you mean by "2fac cut scv allin" because that didn't happen that game
the bottom line is, i don't think pusan played even close to "flawlessly" in the game he lost 2 gate range goon to 2fac when he could defend on top of a wide ramp
i guess Canata at last year's OSL was just a fluke and is now back to his usual routine of getting eliminated early. i still don't understand how people had high hopes for this kid last season.
On October 14 2009 19:02 jello24 wrote: i guess Canata at last year's OSL was just a fluke and is now back to his usual routine of getting eliminated early. i still don't understand how people had high hopes for this kid last season.
Because he made it to the quaterfinals of both leagues, only to get eliminated by the two strongest players of the time in relatively close series?
On October 14 2009 19:02 jello24 wrote: i guess Canata at last year's OSL was just a fluke and is now back to his usual routine of getting eliminated early. i still don't understand how people had high hopes for this kid last season.
His TvP sucks. It always has. He tried to impersonate Iris, but seriously, Oov should slap him around a bit after that.
On October 14 2009 18:43 Plexa wrote: [quote] Last game canata all-ind you have nothing on pusan
2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
i think you don't understand what an all-in is
whats a "normal modern 2fac" please give me an example, because making 3 tanks and reinforcing with vultures is 100% standard
i don't know what you are talking about when you say "cut scvs" because if you cut SCVs you can make 3 facs off 1 base
Just compare expansion timings for 2facs and you'll find that canata's was significantly later than normal
rallying vultures from 2 factories does not require cutting scvs or delaying cc's. the starport delayed his cc, not the 2-fac. there's no difference in timing or units except for maybe 2 extra marines. i don't know what you mean by "2fac cut scv allin" because that didn't happen that game
the bottom line is, i don't think pusan played even close to "flawlessly" in the game he lost 2 gate range goon to 2fac when he could defend on top of a wide ramp
canata made a lot of marines in game 3. like 10 of them. i don't think you can make that many marines and get tank/vult with speed/mine without cutting scvs. if you look at the number of scvs in his base later, you see that he barely has any (16 is my guess).
i think he did something similar in game 1. but i agree with you, pusan's defense was not the best. he should have waited for obs instead of pursuing the tanks (when he suicided 2 goons and some probes right after all of canata's vults died). he lost a lot of goons after that too.
On October 14 2009 18:44 Hot_Bid wrote: [quote] 2-fac isn't an allin, and Pusan's defense against it in game 1 was horrible
No, but 2fac cut scv no expo IS an all in Pusan's defense was pretty much as good as it could possibly be - I don't know what game you were watching
Making reaver instead of obs first---> getting raped by mines is good defense in your opinion?
That was his one mistake - assuming Canata was playing standard 2fac/expo and no 2fac allin
pusan defended forgg's 2-fac because forgg was stupid and got siege first trying to "trick" him. pusan failed horribly against Canata's 2-fac because of bad micro and positioning. i can't believe you think he played that "flawlessly" ... because pusan got straight up raped
are you saying if someone 2-facs its impossible to win even if you 2-gate range? because thats not what happens at all. what made this particular 2-fac by Canata somehow unbeatable by 2-gate range expo, on a map with a wide ramp to natural too
its by no means an unwinnable situation and pusan played far from perfect, even very poorly imo
In the modern 2fac, canata wouldn't have reinforced so hard because he would have had been building scvs and taking an expo. Neither of those happened. The fact that his expansion was so late is a clear indication that this isn't a normal modern 2fac. This is a 2fac all in. I don't think you are comprehending the difference between the two.
i think you don't understand what an all-in is
whats a "normal modern 2fac" please give me an example, because making 3 tanks and reinforcing with vultures is 100% standard
i don't know what you are talking about when you say "cut scvs" because if you cut SCVs you can make 3 facs off 1 base
Just compare expansion timings for 2facs and you'll find that canata's was significantly later than normal
rallying vultures from 2 factories does not require cutting scvs or delaying cc's. the starport delayed his cc, not the 2-fac. there's no difference in timing or units except for maybe 2 extra marines. i don't know what you mean by "2fac cut scv allin" because that didn't happen that game
the bottom line is, i don't think pusan played even close to "flawlessly" in the game he lost 2 gate range goon to 2fac when he could defend on top of a wide ramp
canata made a lot of marines in game 3. like 10 of them. i don't think you can make that many marines and get tank/vult with speed/mine without cutting scvs. if you look at the number of scvs in his base later, you see that he barely has any (16 is my guess).
i think he did something similar in game 1. but i agree with you, pusan's defense was not the best. he should have waited for obs instead of pursuing the tanks (when he suicided 2 goons and some probes right after all of canata's vults died). he lost a lot of goons after that too.
He made 4 marines trying to lure the goons into his main and then surrounding them. Pusan didn't take the bait and kept sniping one at a time and keeping an escape route. Canata gambled, and lost. Time to move on. Now we got a bad Zerg vs. a horrible Terran.
The word that best describes Really as a player is 'wrong'. Wrong building placement. Wrong unit placement. Wrong ninja expo detecting ability. Wrong everything.
On October 14 2009 19:46 iamho wrote: what do acid spores even do?
Edit: To make it all clear.
The devourer's attack has the additional effect of attaching "acid spores" to anything it hits. A unit affected by spores will be revealed (if cloaked), have its attack speed slowed by 1/8 per spore, and take 1 point of additional damage from every attack for every spore attached. A maximum of 9 spores may affect a target at any one time. Spores will disappear after a period of time.
Devourers have a very slow rate of fire, and the attack travels slowly. If a devourer moves before the glob of acid strikes, the glob disappears. The fast firing and bouncing attack of mutalisks benefit greatly from the acid spores. Against a group of targets splashed with 9 spores a single mutalisk can deal 18 damage on its first attack instead of the normal 9 damage (Manit0u edit: bouncing damage is also affected by this so instead of doing 9/3/1 damage it's gonna do 18/15/11 or 18/12/10, not sure how it's gonna count bounce - in either case, damage increase is huge).
On October 14 2009 19:47 iamho wrote: this is what happens when you go for greater spire builds. i cant remember the last time a progamer won with them
He knew really was gonna pressure the nat, yet he morphs the guardians on the other side of the map. At least spilt the guardians up, half at the nat and half attacking.
On October 14 2009 19:46 iamho wrote: what do acid spores even do?
lowers defence
oh raelly i thought it adds damage
or is that just the same thing lol
Acid Spores add damage taken.
This is different from lowering armor because units with Acid Spores will take extra damage from SPELLS as well. For instance, a unit with 9 Acid Spores on it takes 9 extra damage for each of the "damage cycles" of a Psi Storm (which does damage in 8 waves of 14), so instead of taking 8*14 = 112 damage, you'll take 8*(14+9) = 184 damage
On October 14 2009 19:46 iamho wrote: what do acid spores even do?
lowers defence
oh raelly i thought it adds damage
or is that just the same thing lol
Acid Spores add damage taken.
This is different from lowering armor because units with Acid Spores will take extra damage from SPELLS as well. For instance, a unit with 9 Acid Spores on it takes 9 extra damage for each of the "damage cycles" of a Psi Storm (which does damage in 8 waves of 14), so instead of taking 8*14 = 112 damage, you'll take 8*(14+9) = 184 damage
Nothing to complain in Shine's early game, he actually got ahead with Bisu making too much unnecessary defenses. However, it doesn't matter if you just get destroyed later in the game.
Shine should, by all means, be ahead now. He managed to snipe a Zealot for free, and even if he didn't get the corsair, it still can't do much harm. He knows DTs are coming and already has Lurkers out. If the players were evenly skilled he'd have a good chance of winning.
E: Now the corsairs can do something, btw Lurkers were a terrible idea.
Good, shine has Hydras now. Now he needs to take 4. base and defend it while getting mass Hydra with some Lurkers. Need to have a few Lurkers against those Zealots. He should still be okay if he wouldn't get destroyed by Bisu's micro.
Woah, crazy shit. Bisu holds by taking out overlords and denying extra untis. DT getting to work as doom drop hits the gateways. Crazy game is still ion the wire.
Defend third base already, not that difficult to select 3 overlords and 8 hydras and amove. -_- He played so well early and then doesnt defend or take 4. base and ends up losing, why are progamers so stupid?
On October 14 2009 20:42 ProbeSaturation wrote: i dun understand, bisu's third base was running for a long time and his dt did damage didn't it? was his gg to premature?
no. third is running but shine was already at his main after his natural went down. He would've had no more gateways let alone tech structures (forge/cyber.. and couple more i believe) went down already) ... wait take that back he built another forge somewhere
On October 14 2009 20:42 ProbeSaturation wrote: i dun understand, bisu's third base was running for a long time and his dt did damage didn't it? was his gg to premature?
Forget the game itself, did you even look at supply? Bisu was at like 28 when the game ended and Shine was at like 40 something?
I mean come on 3rd base running long time, DT did damage ... you still gotta watch the game itself
On October 14 2009 20:43 Dice wrote: Shine is on steroids! One of the commentators mentioned that he felt like he was watching July instead. Hyper-aggressive mode ftw.
On October 14 2009 20:41 Pepsicolaone wrote: woah i thought i was watching julyzerg
On October 14 2009 20:41 ret wrote: he had to kill bisu right there so letting the base die to dt was a good descision
I guess you're right, do you think he could have taken a 4. base right as he moved from Bisu's third to his natural or was he just running off ~36 drones on a pure "allin" and couldn't have afforded it?
EDIT: actually he tried to take it and failed so it was just his badness, lucky that he still won.
Bisu's mistake was that is entire army got caught outside his base. He lost LOTS of units trying to get back onto his narrow ramp. SHould have just straight out engaged IMO.
On October 14 2009 20:45 darktreb wrote: The best part about that game was that I feel like any basically any good Zerg could have pulled it off, haha. Anybody want to correct me on this one?
That game was so fucking close, I thought Bisu held it but Shine managed to plow through by devoting everything to the attack, even sacrificing his entire 3rd.
On October 14 2009 20:45 Kazius wrote: Shine out-APMd Bisu last game. Someone has been busy with the fangirls last night.
seriously, I'm going from Denmark to Korea when SC2 is out to train meself epic good and get lots of lots of fangirls!!! then retire and continue my education!
On October 14 2009 20:45 darktreb wrote: The best part about that game was that I feel like any basically any good Zerg could have pulled it off, haha. Anybody want to correct me on this one?
Are you serious?
Depends on how you define good I guess. Shine played like a baller and made some great decisions, but really Jaedong/Effort/July/Luxury/Yarnc/Savior/by.hero couldn't have done that too?
On October 14 2009 20:45 darktreb wrote: The best part about that game was that I feel like any basically any good Zerg could have pulled it off, haha. Anybody want to correct me on this one?
On October 14 2009 20:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: Effort? No. Luxury? NO ROFL?! YarnC? Have you seen his ZvP? Savior? Are you living in 2006? July, Jaedong, Hero could've done it - on a good day.
On October 14 2009 20:44 Shikyo wrote: I guess you're right, do you think he could have taken a 4. base right as he moved from Bisu's third to his natural or was he just running off ~36 drones on a pure "allin" and couldn't have afforded it?
EDIT: actually he tried to take it and failed so it was just his badness, lucky that he still won.
what do u mean "his badness" the 4th fell to 2zeal/1dt while morphing, but he didnt care and instead attacked which was good since it won him the game lol
On October 14 2009 20:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: Effort? No. Luxury? NO ROFL?! YarnC? Have you seen his ZvP? Savior? Are you living in 2006? July, Jaedong, Hero could've done it - on a good day.
I guess I'm focusing too much on the late game. You're right, Lux/Yarnc would never have gotten the game to that position. Not sure about Effort/Savior, but I guess they basically don't play this style of ZvP either.
Shine goes for overpool, no gas yet. Bisu's scouting probe takes out the drone trying to expand and then puts a spite-pylon there. Yet shine sneaks in a third base after chasing the scout away.
On October 14 2009 20:42 zcxvbn wrote: Shine: fuck that dt, I can still rape bisu ez -20 drones...
Sick play by shine, absolutely jaw-dropping.
yeah ... making shitload of hydras and puming them for whole game is definetly a jaw-dropping play
wait , what ?
On October 14 2009 20:45 darktreb wrote: The best part about that game was that I feel like any basically any good Zerg could have pulled it off, haha. Anybody want to correct me on this one?
What's up with these retarded comments, look at all the decisions that were made on how to encounter Bisu's base. Both of you would've just ran your hydras in there like an idiot and died. Stop trying to simplify the game with dumb fanboy comments like this and try to look at what's going on.
On October 14 2009 20:45 darktreb wrote: The best part about that game was that I feel like any basically any good Zerg could have pulled it off, haha. Anybody want to correct me on this one?
What's up with these retarded comments, look at all the decisions that were made on how to encounter Bisu's base. Both of you would've just ran your hydras in there like an idiot and died. Stop simplifying the game with comments like this.
Good Zerg != you or me ... good Zerg is another progamer
Shine handled all aspects of that game brilliantly no question.
Can you relax now? I'm enjoying watching Bisu (hopefully) go down here.
Come on now, Bisu. It's vaguely hilarious when you lose to scrubs, but this one doesn't deserve it. And this league needs your help to become epic later on.
On October 14 2009 16:52 samachking wrote: Canata + Bisu will destory their groups, although I hope they get CRUSHED even though its pretty unlikely. Hey, hero did it once when he is a noname, how about letting shine do it.
lol these games were hilarious just to hear the commentators talking about the zerg player.
attack attack attack!
did anyone else catch what they were saying about maelstrom. since mutas > hydras --> zerg > Protoss, they were saying perhaps dark archons are needed to keep templars alive
He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lose some...
game was typical pvz. micro/timings were important NOT strats
but let me clarify... was smart of shine to use mutas which was a strat but its been done before
i vowed to stop following professional SC if Bisu doesn't take this OSL.. -_- goodbye SC. Hope somewhere in the future Bisu does manage to take at least 1 OSL. GG yo
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
the point is that DA seems almost necessary nowadays to counter those mutas
i suppose 1 or 2 archons should/would work as well though, or corsairs
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
DA using Maelstorm to stop Mutas from snipping HT looks like the only current solution
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
the point is that DA seems almost necessary nowadays to counter those mutas
i suppose 1 or 2 archons should/would work as well though, or corsairs
yes 1-2 archons work well as do corsairs... DA can be used but its not necessary nor does it need to evolve
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lose some...
game was typical pvz. micro/timings were important NOT strats
but let me clarify... was smart of shine to use mutas which was a strat but its been done before
Who said it hasn't been done before? New strats is needed (probably DA) because Bisu manages to lose to Shine in straight-up play ffs
Ugh, FUCK. Bisu what the hell man. Well congratulations to shine, I guess.
will DA maelstrom actually work? I haven't played in forever, but it seems that unless assimilator is built right away at both bases after FE, then it would be prohibitively gas heavy. It would also either delay storm timing or give Z a window of opportunity to snipe HTs, depending on which was researched first.
Again, I suck. So, feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
well y dont they use those corsairs to help defend and 1 archon around with your army too defend the mutas from sniping, should this be sufficient>>? if not DA is needed iguess...
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
DA using Maelstorm to stop Mutas from snipping HT looks like the only current solution
archons/sairs (and only 1 archon is necessary... i've seen way too many muta groups melt to single archons and 2-4 sairs)
On October 14 2009 21:20 Gryffindor_us wrote: LOL it's a shame that Bisu isn't in but I'm kind of glad that PvZ is going to evolve into DA use. It's about damn time.
??? why you say that.... this game was not so different than many other pvz's... and still not a lot of DA use
DA using Maelstorm to stop Mutas from snipping HT looks like the only current solution
@d_so yep the commentators said that da's must be mandatory because zergs spend so much money on mutas to snipe the ht's. and a toss army without ht's has no chance against hydras
On October 14 2009 21:23 ondik wrote: Sad day for OSL. Well done Shine, cheesing your way to ro16, destroying potentially great matches just to go 0-3 next round.
Think Bisu needed like 5 sairs with his army and shine could snipe like 1 ht max or DA but its kinda risky and noone has gotten the timing right till now
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
On October 14 2009 21:23 ondik wrote: Sad day for OSL. Well done Shine, cheesing your way to ro16, destroying potentially great matches just to go 0-3 next round.
Next in line: Fantasy after that shine can go down
Bisu played not bad, he just made some strange decisions going into pure dragoon and zealots without legs instead of standart zealot-ht-archon-goon. Muta killed all of HTs but if Bisu had at least 1 or 2 archons he could defend well agains muta. Mass goon is weak against mass hydra and HT sniping. But Bisu wanted to do stupid things and lost. It's all his fail.
I fear this will be another boring OSL like previous...
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
hehe well I'm really hoping flash owns this osl so I'm sorta glad bisu is out. I think it's just lame it was at ro36 against some random zerg... Hoping it's not mass zvz everywhere with a terran or two thrown in and 0 protoss season this time around.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
nice chart... but its not denial... bisu is number 1 elo... when he loses everyone is quick to go OMG zerg is imba... but dude he's number 1 in ELO... i dont think balance is an issue now
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
Most lopsided liquibet ever? N.B. The total for Bisu should actually be at least 1925, but I forgot to enter my liquibet beforehand .
Great play by Shine overall, barring the second game, which I conveniently missed. Bisu definitely made a few mistakes, most notably not protecting his high templar with his goon-heavy army (made specifically for that purpose). I hope he takes these matches to heart and comes up with a new DA-oriented build (unlike the travesty that was + Show Spoiler +
On October 14 2009 21:19 SkytoM wrote: PvZ Balance? Out of this world. Bisu didn't even play bad.
Well, although ZvP seems quite imbalanced these days, I've got to say that the last game Shine played really, really well. Also, Bisu got too many goons I think. Shine played very well though, and this build is quite good and new as well... I think it's becoming the standard these days. Maybe Protoss are trying to play against it like the play against the normal straight Hydra build and it just doesn't work as well.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
nice chart... but its not denial... bisu is number 1 elo... when he loses everyone is quick to go OMG zerg is imba... but dude he's number 1 in ELO... i dont think balance is an issue now
Is he still? Regardless, that ELO has not been coming from his vZ lately, but rather his vT and vP. Thanks for playing though.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
ZvP record is 61-35 in MST and 58-37 in OSL prelims, both over 60%. Also 8-2 so far in Proleague and I'm not holding my breath for that ratio to change significantly.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
why would you say they need new strats? you win some you lost some...
Well because protoss are getting owned by zergs steady these days and I noticed one big reason is those HT's dying too easily, the best protoss in the game just lost to some random zerg due to that reason heh. I don't think the matchup is imba but I think protoss might need to change the way they play a bit, although I don't know how I'm not a progamer.
protoss is not getting stomped by zerg ...its so common to say that but they aren't
Five Stages Of Grief 1. Denial and Isolation. <-- you 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. <-- me 5. Acceptance.
nice chart... but its not denial... bisu is number 1 elo... when he loses everyone is quick to go OMG zerg is imba... but dude he's number 1 in ELO... i dont think balance is an issue now
I think Flash just passed Bisu for #1 ELO…?
(not that one player's ELO is indicative of an entire race's performance vs. Zerg anyway)
Actually, DA's won't counter HT sniping unless pretty late in the game. They cost too much + maelstrom research etc. etc. delays toss a lot and zerg can just go for mass hydra/lurk break. Sair/Reaver/Zealot could be viable if only protoss managed to keep enough sairs alive. Dweb is a must in this case.
On October 14 2009 21:26 SkelA wrote: Think Bisu needed like 5 sairs with his army and shine could snipe like 1 ht max or DA but its kinda risky and noone has gotten the timing right till now
they key i think is to not be like Much in his Arena MSL match against Jaedong when he rushed DA's, but to time it with zerg's spire which usually comes after the five hatches + hydra den and upgrades.
basically, since zerg is suiciding their mutas to kill templars, toss needs to counter by spending just a ltitle time/money and get Maelstrom
Bisu @ HBR did a risky build with massive Zealot/Goons and no Archon/Sair against Muta-Snipe. This was his downfall. First Game was very close too. Here Bisu had too many archons in early game so his HTs/Storm were too late. Watch the second game, here Bisu did no mistakes and raped Shine easily. PvZ might be very hard nowadays but it's not THAT imbalanced like you all are claiming now.
On October 14 2009 21:33 SkyTheUnknown wrote: Bisu @ HBR did a risky build with massive Zealot/Goons and no Archon/Sair against Muta-Snipe. This was his downfall. First Game was very close too. Here Bisu had too many archons in early game so his HTs/Storm were too late. Watch the second game, here Bisu did no mistakes and raped Shine easily. PvZ might be very hard nowadays but it's not THAT imbalanced like you all are claiming now.
bisu did no mistake but shine suicided alot of his units into a completely meaningless drop
On October 14 2009 21:19 SkytoM wrote: PvZ Balance? Out of this world. Bisu didn't even play bad.
You mean losing first corsair and all of his HT? He played fine!
what could he have done to save the HTs =.=
What could he have done to save his corsairs? If he had more corsairs muta would be less of a problem.
ok, so the guy with the best corsair control in the game, ever, who routinely does what no other protoss can do with them just needs to stop being so bad with his corsairs?
i think what you meant to say is 'he needs to build more corsairs', but that is a completely different kettle of fish and comes with its own problems.
On October 14 2009 21:19 SkytoM wrote: PvZ Balance? Out of this world. Bisu didn't even play bad.
Well, although ZvP seems quite imbalanced these days, I've got to say that the last game Shine played really, really well. Also, Bisu got too many goons I think. Shine played very well though, and this build is quite good and new as well... I think it's becoming the standard these days. Maybe Protoss are trying to play against it like the play against the normal straight Hydra build and it just doesn't work as well.
whats the normal straight hydra build?
this 3 hatch lair -> spire + den +2 hatches hydra pressure switch to muta HT sniping has been like every PvZ game i've watched for the last i dont know how long lol ~_~
On October 14 2009 21:33 SkyTheUnknown wrote: Bisu @ HBR did a risky build with massive Zealot/Goons and no Archon/Sair against Muta-Snipe. This was his downfall. First Game was very close too. Here Bisu had too many archons in early game so his HTs/Storm were too late. Watch the second game, here Bisu did no mistakes and raped Shine easily. PvZ might be very hard nowadays but it's not THAT imbalanced like you all are claiming now.
i don't think it's so simple as saying bisu played perfectly second game. the zerg player had no lurkers no spire at all just went for 5 hatch hydra break with no tech or any backup plan. it was really a stupid game on the zerg's part especially how he ran headfirst into those storms.
On October 14 2009 21:33 SkyTheUnknown wrote: Bisu @ HBR did a risky build with massive Zealot/Goons and no Archon/Sair against Muta-Snipe. This was his downfall. First Game was very close too. Here Bisu had too many archons in early game so his HTs/Storm were too late. Watch the second game, here Bisu did no mistakes and raped Shine easily. PvZ might be very hard nowadays but it's not THAT imbalanced like you all are claiming now.
bisu made no mistake in 2nd game, just shine made a massive one lol
On October 14 2009 21:31 Shikyo wrote: Also, Bisu got too many goons I think.
He scouted lurker tech. Of course he rushed for goons. It's to Shine's credit that he switched tech real quickly. So when the armies clashed, there were almost no lurkers in Shine's army.
Regardless, because the protoss can't scout well in PvZ, it's really difficult for Bisu to realize Shine's switch fast enough to counter it. Oh well.
On October 14 2009 21:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what the crap jus happened -.-
Shine showed us heartbreak ridge is at the very least balanced due to protoss not being able to deal with muta switches in a cost efficient way... And he showed you all those things I whined about in our little discussion earlier
Protoss choices are basically limited to either making 7-8 corsairs to guard oneself against muta switches and in doing so losing all sort of presence and map control early on, or doing an extreme sort of timing attack and just hoping for the best. Even if you make the corsairs you aren't guaranteed safe. Lose 2 of them and they'll be useless again.
Heartbreak isn't exactly a map that lends itself very well to making many corsairs either so that leaves you with the timing attack. And zerg sim cities usually deal well with those.
Might still argue these things don't have anything to do with the map, and i agree they don't in general, except for too many corsairs generally being a waste on a map like Heartbreak. It's hard to do any sort of efficient harass on zergs 3 initial bases with a corsair --> harass oriented strategy, due to them being so close to eachother and easy to defend.
Doesn't have to do with the map. I think the ZvP matchup is shifting towards the zergs' favor again. It's real tough dealing with those constant and pretty much instantaneous tech switches. One small screwup in any point of the game (i.e. losing 2 corsairs is all it takes for a protoss to lose air superiority), and you're screwed.
The loss of first corsair was huge when he went double SG. It was too close to larva and I was literally cringing for 5sec before the inevitable happened.
hallucinate some templars and let the zerg suicide on killing them while keeping the real one at bay . asking for the second time , since knowing zerg will use 9 mutas
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
first by.hero, second type-b, now shine[kal]? man we gotta make a poll on which crappy zerg makes the ro4 this season.
i dont mind hero and type b..
but shine kal's face annoys me lol
does that make me a mean person
On October 14 2009 21:37 cascades wrote: The loss of first corsair was huge when he went double SG. It was too close to larva and I was literally cringing for 5sec before the inevitable happened.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
On October 14 2009 21:33 SkyTheUnknown wrote: Bisu @ HBR did a risky build with massive Zealot/Goons and no Archon/Sair against Muta-Snipe. This was his downfall. First Game was very close too. Here Bisu had too many archons in early game so his HTs/Storm were too late. Watch the second game, here Bisu did no mistakes and raped Shine easily. PvZ might be very hard nowadays but it's not THAT imbalanced like you all are claiming now.
Archon/sair was what he did the first game, to prevent muta snipe. Ok, just go mass hydras and GG. I dont say that zerg will shine (lol) forever against toss, but toss need to change (again) the way the matchup is played
As far as I'm concerned the ideal world for PvZ would be one in which protoss and zerg use dark archons, disruption web, and queens. Even Bisu is a worthy sacrifice for the shift to occur! ^_^
IMO sair/archon doesn't stop HT snipes, since it's basically muta suicides. Imagine having 4 HTs in army, with first being taken out by the surprise. If 2 more get killed due to basic muta micro, protoss is dead - one HT won't make it, since hydras also can dodge storms.
Just a question though, what happened to sair/2reaver/speed zealot pushes? Are they getting rolled by hydra flanks now? Speed shuttle seems more resistant to muta snipes; at least it can surely get reavers in attack spot, and reavers are more tough - sair protection has better chance to work.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
On October 14 2009 21:19 SkytoM wrote: PvZ Balance? Out of this world. Bisu didn't even play bad.
Well, although ZvP seems quite imbalanced these days, I've got to say that the last game Shine played really, really well. Also, Bisu got too many goons I think. Shine played very well though, and this build is quite good and new as well... I think it's becoming the standard these days. Maybe Protoss are trying to play against it like the play against the normal straight Hydra build and it just doesn't work as well.
whats the normal straight hydra build?
this 3 hatch lair -> spire + den +2 hatches hydra pressure switch to muta HT sniping has been like every PvZ game i've watched for the last i dont know how long lol ~_~
What are you talking about? He didn't go Hydra, he went Lurker first.
On October 14 2009 21:31 Shikyo wrote: Also, Bisu got too many goons I think.
He scouted lurker tech. Of course he rushed for goons. It's to Shine's credit that he switched tech real quickly. So when the armies clashed, there were almost no lurkers in Shine's army.
Regardless, because the protoss can't scout well in PvZ, it's really difficult for Bisu to realize Shine's switch fast enough to counter it. Oh well.
Exactly, I think Protosses haven't adapted to this build well enough, so he overreacted.
On October 14 2009 21:40 funKy_KroK wrote: I dont understand why Bisu didnt try the build he used against Jaedong. Fast zealots +1 push before the zerg get lurkers
i think in that game jaedong played like ass and went for fast lurkers or something
On October 14 2009 21:40 funKy_KroK wrote: I dont understand why Bisu didnt try the build he used against Jaedong. Fast zealots +1 push before the zerg get lurkers
Rush distance. It's really that simple.
HBR has a long rush distance, much longer than Destination (for rushing the Z's third)
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
Well one thing we can say for sure is that he'l be out in the ro 16 unless he gets a crap easy group.
On October 14 2009 21:39 Soulforged wrote: IMO sair/archon doesn't stop HT snipes, since it's basically muta suicides. Imagine having 4 HTs in army, with first being taken out by the surprise. If 2 more get killed due to basic muta micro, protoss is dead - one HT won't make it, since hydras also can dodge storms.
Just a question though, what happened to sair/2reaver/speed zealot pushes? Are they getting rolled by hydra flanks now? Speed shuttle seems more resistant to muta snipes; at least it can surely get reavers in attack spot, and reavers are more tough - sair protection has better chance to work.
Are you forgetting another zerg unit for which speed shuttle's NOT resistant to? Losing shuttle = GG.
Also, Shine went fast lurkers. Suffice to say you're not killing any lurkers with speedlots/reaver/sairs.
The sad part is, Archons aren't even the answer. The problem is that the protoss army melts without storm, so sniping 4 templar is an auto win if you engage quickly. If you force him to make 2-4 archons just to keep a couple templars alive...That's effectively sniping 4-8 templar that could've been used for storm.
There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
I know a lot of people are saying Dark Archon, but that's still 2 dts worth, plus painful upgrades just to keep templars alive. I really think we just need newer maps. Why are we still using HBR after it contributed to the demolishing of protoss last OSL?
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
On October 14 2009 21:45 ghostWriter wrote: It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
Have you forgotten about Savior and how impossible he made PvZ for about a year? You could make a case that Terran has had more "good seasons" than Zerg, but Protoss? No way. We've never seen a Protoss bonjwa and the only time Protoss ever approached dominance was one SC season last year (ClubDay MSL's).
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
that wasn't what i was whating.
but i'll bite - what?
he "often" this and "usually" that, how many ti.. no. whatever.
On October 14 2009 21:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Honestly I just want to see Terran do well this season. It's downright stroke inducing that ForGG is the most recent Terran champion.
No, that won't do at all. Jaedong needs to keep winning OSL titles until Starcraft 2 comes out. Kespa, proteams, and the entire Starcraft fanbase refuse to have it any other way.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
that wasn't what i was whating.
but i'll bite - what?
he "often" this and "usually" that, how many ti.. no. whatever.
It's best not to argue with Shikyo, you'll lose a lot of brain cells. Best to just smile and nod when he says that PvZ is easy for Protoss, Savior still has invincible ZvP, SKT is the worst team in proleague, Bisu is cocky, Fantasy is a lame cheesing Terran who is horrible at Starcraft, etc., etc.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
… or he just feels most comfortable playing PvZ
So he picks very easy all-zerg groups without helping his teammates with their groups, for example. And then he loses in them. Against mediocre players. But he can compete with the very best when he's playing well. So he takes his mediocre Zerg opponents lightly. So he's arrogant or cocky.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
that wasn't what i was whating.
but i'll bite - what?
he "often" this and "usually" that, how many ti.. no. whatever.
Oh, lost to by.hero, got owned by zerg group with yarnc and was it jaedong and someone else, got owned by zerg group with savior and zero. Jaedong wasn't mediocre I guess, I think it was the Blue Storm game. Losing to Savior and Zero was so bad though, considering how he picked them. Oh, and lost to Shine.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
that wasn't what i was whating.
but i'll bite - what?
he "often" this and "usually" that, how many ti.. no. whatever.
I'm fairly sure he was knocked out of 3 MSLs so far to easy zerg groups? And this is his third OSL getting stomped out by an obviously underrated zerg. (the season he got kicked out by Fantasy in the semis is the same he lost to by.hero) That's six tournaments in the last four seasons or so. I think he actually has a worse record dropping out of tournaments to terrans, technically, but they're not usually upsets or they're at the very least good games (Mind when he was in form, Flash in Bacchus, Iris recently etc).
edit: i feel bad for protoss, but i'm sick of reading protoss players respond to any post that may be saying protoss isn't hard with sarcastic shit all the time.
I.E Someone makes a post about SKT Zergs sucking and he says zerg isn't hard... wtf?
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
honestly...what?
Bisu has a history of losing to terrible Zergs. Also, ín group picks he often picks an all-zerg group of mediocre Zergs for himself to make it easy, and then he usually fails in them. It's pretty easy to conclude he's quite arrogant and cocky.
that wasn't what i was whating.
but i'll bite - what?
he "often" this and "usually" that, how many ti.. no. whatever.
There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
Starcraft has been the backbone of the e-sports community for over a decade. Could there really be some hidden strategy or whatnot to save the Protoss after all this time?
It certainly doesn't help that the Protoss is historically the least successful race.
On October 14 2009 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: The sad part is, Archons aren't even the answer. The problem is that the protoss army melts without storm, so sniping 4 templar is an auto win if you engage quickly. If you force him to make 2-4 archons just to keep a couple templars alive...That's effectively sniping 4-8 templar that could've been used for storm.
There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
I know a lot of people are saying Dark Archon, but that's still 2 dts worth, plus painful upgrades just to keep templars alive. I really think we just need newer maps. Why are we still using HBR after it contributed to the demolishing of protoss last OSL?
zerg is making spire + nine mutas for just one purpose one: kill HTs so hydras can roll through. that's at least 900 gas/mineral to do one thing. surely protoss can spend an equal amount of time/money to protect their valuable HTs with DA. in the last game bisu already had dark templars; it's just a simple matter of making a DA and upgrading maelstrom. i agree with other posters + the announcers that DA needs to be at least considered and i feel 100 percent that bisu would have won if he had two DA in that last game
On October 14 2009 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote:There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
Starcraft has been the backbone of the e-sports community for over a decade. Could there really be some hidden strategy or whatnot to save the Protoss after all this time?
It certainly doesn't help that the Protoss is historically the least success race.
Only in Korea... Counterstrike was far more popular in the early 00's in every other country...
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Zergs have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
On October 14 2009 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: The sad part is, Archons aren't even the answer. The problem is that the protoss army melts without storm, so sniping 4 templar is an auto win if you engage quickly. If you force him to make 2-4 archons just to keep a couple templars alive...That's effectively sniping 4-8 templar that could've been used for storm.
There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
I know a lot of people are saying Dark Archon, but that's still 2 dts worth, plus painful upgrades just to keep templars alive. I really think we just need newer maps. Why are we still using HBR after it contributed to the demolishing of protoss last OSL?
zerg is making spire + nine mutas for just one purpose one: kill HTs so hydras can roll through. that's at least 900 gas/mineral to do one thing. surely protoss can spend an equal amount of time/money to protect their valuable HTs with DA. in the last game bisu already had dark templars; it's just a simple matter of making a DA and upgrading maelstrom. i agree with other posters + the announcers that DA needs to be at least considered and i feel 100 percent that bisu would have won if he had two DA in that last game
Until we see a progamer successfully pull it off in a PvZ with all the timing windows accounted for, it's just theorycrafting and "a potentially good idea."
Until GOMTV MSL S1 Final, Daezang's sair/dt idea was just a cute little idea. Unless one or more progamers can pull it off successfully and consistently against the best zergs, theory is just theory.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
On October 14 2009 21:45 ghostWriter wrote: It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
Have you forgotten about Savior and how impossible he made PvZ for about a year? You could make a case that Terran has had more "good seasons" than Zerg, but Protoss? No way. We've never seen a Protoss bonjwa and the only time Protoss ever approached dominance was one SC season last year (ClubDay MSL's).
I dunno, Bisu was pretty dominant right after he crushed savior 3-0 (I forget which tournament this was) The six dragons period must have been shorter than I remember. Must be because it was so recent.
And I meant that it seems like all zergs as a race are beginning to dominate strongly, even the no namers, not just the guys at the top. Sorry, it's midterms week and I'm not thinking clearly.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
On October 14 2009 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: The sad part is, Archons aren't even the answer. The problem is that the protoss army melts without storm, so sniping 4 templar is an auto win if you engage quickly. If you force him to make 2-4 archons just to keep a couple templars alive...That's effectively sniping 4-8 templar that could've been used for storm.
There's an answer somewhere, there always is, but Protoss is looking more and more disheveled by the day.
I know a lot of people are saying Dark Archon, but that's still 2 dts worth, plus painful upgrades just to keep templars alive. I really think we just need newer maps. Why are we still using HBR after it contributed to the demolishing of protoss last OSL?
zerg is making spire + nine mutas for just one purpose one: kill HTs so hydras can roll through. that's at least 900 gas/mineral to do one thing. surely protoss can spend an equal amount of time/money to protect their valuable HTs with DA. in the last game bisu already had dark templars; it's just a simple matter of making a DA and upgrading maelstrom. i agree with other posters + the announcers that DA needs to be at least considered and i feel 100 percent that bisu would have won if he had two DA in that last game
Until we see a progamer successfully pull it off in a PvZ with all the timing windows accounted for, it's just theorycrafting and "a potentially good idea."
Until GOMTV MSL S1 Final, Daezang's sair/dt idea was just a cute little idea. Unless one or more progamers can pull it off successfully and consistently against the best zergs, theory is just theory.
Yeah, and actually you have to consider that Zerg has 3 gas and Protoss only 2, and also the fact that Mutalisks don't only snipe HT, they actually keep map control, snipe at Zealots, pick off probes, force cannons at both bases and so on. And even with one DA, you really can't prevent mutas from sniping templar that come out of the gateways. Another thing is that HTs cost 150 gas and with all the maelstrom and storm upgrades and potential goons AND the early observers you require against this build Shine did, how many HT are you actually going to have after you are able to sufficiently defend them against the Mutas? Not many.
On October 14 2009 21:56 Camlito wrote: LOOOOOOOOOL I VOTED SHINE OMG! BY.HERO 2.0! 4/4
edit: i feel bad for protoss, but i'm sick of reading protoss players respond to any post that may be saying protoss isn't hard with sarcastic shit all the time.
I.E Someone makes a post about SKT Zergs sucking and he says zerg isn't hard... wtf?
REALLY now?? How do you think protoss players feel about the past 3 years of "1a2a3a" bullshit comments?? And YOU are sick of sarcastic shit? wow.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
If you paid attention you would notice he was referring not to a single Jaedong but rather to Jaedongs.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. He also might have tried to take his 3rd too quickly, which zergs can punish on heartbreak. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
Amazing that you can counter your own points for me.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
the templars dont have to die. it was already over. they are forced to use up their storms anyway, which is already a losing proposition.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
Amazing that you can counter your own points for me.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
Yes, you're right. Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are just playing far worse than type-b, Shine, Zero, Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro. That's why, it has nothing to do with racial imbalance, Kwanro is just a better than both Flash and Bisu combined.
On October 14 2009 21:38 ghostWriter wrote: [quote]
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
Amazing that you can counter your own points for me.
What does this even mean?
This is too taxing to explain, I'll just say that I think its interesting that you made a point why type-b was not a fluke, then the next sentence you give evidence that it was.
On October 14 2009 21:36 JWD wrote: hay guys, let's look at the upside: now we get to see the unique, popular, and talented Shine[KaL] in the OSL Ro16
YAY
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
Yes, you're right. Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are just playing far worse than type-b, Shine, Zero, Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro. That's why, it has nothing to do with racial imbalance, Kwanro is just a better than both Flash and Bisu combined.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?
Zerg racial imbalance, does that point have any merit at all? You don't even mention the maps, which would make you, at least someone reasonable. I'm not buying that Zerg themselves are overpowered bud.
On October 14 2009 21:40 disciple wrote: [quote] yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Yeah, this is what I meant, sorry for mistakes.
Bisu actually played pretty well against Shine and if he didn't lose all his templars, he probably could have rolled through shine's army easily. Type-b can't be a fluke, he took out leta who is no slouch at tvz (although he wasn't able to use the 2port wraith that he's known for).
Amazing that you can counter your own points for me.
What does this even mean?
This is too taxing to explain, I'll just say that I think its interesting that you made a point why type-b was not a fluke, then the next sentence you give evidence that it was.
Oh I see. No that's not what I meant. Although his forte is his 2port wraith, Leta's regular tvz is excellent as well and definitely within the top 5, if not top 3 of terrans. He just beat fantasy in survivor and getting into the quarterfinals (correct me if I'm wrong) of an OSL is never easy, even if you are in a relatively "easy" group.
On October 14 2009 21:38 ghostWriter wrote: [quote]
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
Yes, you're right. Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are just playing far worse than type-b, Shine, Zero, Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro. That's why, it has nothing to do with racial imbalance, Kwanro is just a better than both Flash and Bisu combined.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?
Zerg racial imbalance, does that point have any merit at all? You don't even mention the maps, which would make you, at least someone reasonable. I'm not buying that Zerg themselves are overpowered bud.
Agreed. Funny to hear racial imbalance whine from a Terran player, everyone knows T has the highest winning percentage out of all the races from all broadcasted pro games
On October 14 2009 21:38 ghostWriter wrote: [quote]
Maybe Bisu should have considered this before he decided to get raped by Shine haha. You can't say that shine isn't talented after he trashed bisu's pvz.
yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
Yes, you're right. Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are just playing far worse than type-b, Shine, Zero, Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro. That's why, it has nothing to do with racial imbalance, Kwanro is just a better than both Flash and Bisu combined.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?
Zerg racial imbalance, does that point have any merit at all? You don't even mention the maps, which would make you, at least someone reasonable. I'm not buying that Zerg themselves are overpowered bud.
I don't need a completely biased fanboy to buy anything. You can keep thinking that Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are all crappy horrible players and that last season's Starleague semifinalists (which include Yarnc, Calm, Kwanro, type-b, and Zero) are better than ALL FIVE of the players I just mentioned.
If I have to even MAKE AN ARGUMENT as to why Kwanro isn't better than Flash or Bisu, then I'm not even going to bother.
On October 14 2009 22:26 Hot_Bid wrote: I love how there'd be no question about imbalance if Bisu had just won that extremely close game one. That means 2-0 Bisu and he's in the OSL.
One extremely close game swings one way = not imba. Shine wins extremely close game = imba.
Please, lets not overreact anymore
that is a silly thing to say, isn't it? there is an 18 page zvp imbalance thread sitting right over there. the one close game is the difference between the discussion spilling into this thread or not, not whether the discussion exists.
On October 14 2009 22:26 Hot_Bid wrote: I love how there'd be no question about imbalance if Bisu had just won that extremely close game one. That means 2-0 Bisu and he's in the OSL.
One extremely close game swings one way = not imba. Shine wins extremely close game = imba.
Please, lets not overreact anymore
I think the issue for most people wasn't game one, but the roflstomping of game 3. Of course it wouldn't have happened if Bisu had won game one, but it still was a stomping. =P
On October 14 2009 21:40 disciple wrote: [quote] yeah but the very thought that Shine "trashed" world's best PvZ is disturbing to say at least
Well, like GTR said, this isn't the first time that Bisu has been eliminated early by some noob zerg that he should have advanced past. I think it has to do with his arrogance. He probably didn't prepare enough, thinking that it's just shine[kal] and that's how he ended up disappointing everyone.
It's about time for zerg to have their heyday. Protoss and Terran have had way longer periods of dominance. I'm glad that the racial imbalance is beginning to change.
About time?
Are you for real?
Zergs are allready having a 'period of dominance' (ya know those 4 titles and imba ZvP) and you want it to continue?
The last season was one of the worst in recent memory with all these frigging ZvZ's and protoss getting crushed all over the place and you want it to continue?
You honestly want all this to continue?
I dont really know what to say.
Yeah this is a good point, to say that the "racial imbalance is beginning to change" in favor of Zergs is pretty much to ignore the last half year of SC. Jaedong's have been beating the piss out of everyone for quite some time now.
Fixed.
If it was just Jaedong, then we wouldn't have had so many zergs in the RO8 of Bacchus and TWO ZvZ finals last season.
When Savior was beating the piss out of everyone in 2006, we still saw quite a few Protosses in the leagues. I remember Pringles S2 MSL had Kingdom, Nal_ra, Terato, and Daezang, and maybe a couple others IIRC.
THERE WERE 3 PROTOSS IN BACCHUS OSL and ONE in the Avalon MSL RO8.
So no, it's not just Jaedong. It's any random Zerg that feels like winning on a given day (see: type-b, Shine, Zero)
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
-ZerO is a hugely entertaining player. -Shine can only thank Bisu for failing monumentally. -type-b was a fluke, they happen.
Yes, you're right. Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are just playing far worse than type-b, Shine, Zero, Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro. That's why, it has nothing to do with racial imbalance, Kwanro is just a better than both Flash and Bisu combined.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?
Zerg racial imbalance, does that point have any merit at all? You don't even mention the maps, which would make you, at least someone reasonable. I'm not buying that Zerg themselves are overpowered bud.
I don't need a completely biased fanboy to buy anything. You can keep thinking that Flash, Leta, fantasy, Bisu, and Stork are all crappy horrible players and that last season's Starleague semifinalists (which include Yarnc, Calm, Kwanro, type-b, and Zero) are better than ALL FIVE of the players I just mentioned.
If I have to even MAKE AN ARGUMENT as to why Kwanro isn't better than Flash or Bisu, then I'm not even going to bother.
Maybe if you watched more than a handful of tournaments, you'd be worth listening to. (You're not)
I didn't say that they were crappy players, I know they are not, that doesn't mean they can't perform poorly. Its not about being "better" then the other players. Individual leagues are about preparation, the win does not go to the player with the better win percentage by default. Calm, Yarnc and Zero are all coming into their own. Who in the world would be stupid enough to think that "those 5 players you mentioned" will always be the best. The reason they win is because they prepare more efficiently, not because they are Zerg, get a fucking clue.
In response to your last point, You'd have to make an argument that Zerg is overpowered. (Well you can't... because its fucking stupid, and anyone on this website should know that, it would be neat to see you try though...)
pvz is not imbalanced at all.. I play pvz and zvp and i can say that zvp is little easier and it gives you a bigger margin of error you can fuck up to some lvl and still wont be game deciding as for pvz its alot harder (not imba) you just cant afford mistakes like losing hts in early midd game because will lead to your downfall.
First game Bisu lost like 4 hts at start without casting a storm and he lost barely... 3rd he losses 3 hts thats like 6 storms and lost the game because of that. If shine didnt attacked right away he would lost 100% sacrificing 900 gas and minerals for 3 hts
Maybe if you watched more than a handful of tournaments, you'd be worth listening to. (You're not)
Then why are you responding to me? You don't have to respond to me.
I didn't say that they were crappy players, I know they are not
Sounds like Terran and Protoss need to do better.
Right, okay, moving on.
The reason they win is because they prepare more efficiently, not because they are Zerg, get a fucking clue.
So Terran and Protoss players NEVER prepare for their matches? That explains why so many random zerg players have been taking down the likes of Flash, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, and Stork. All five players are so cocky that they never prepare for their matches at all. In fact, not just those five, but EVERY SINGLE TERRAN AND PROTOSS PLAYER never prepares for a match. Only zerg players actually prepare for matches. You're right, I need to "get a fucking clue," because the other two races clearly never prepare for their matches.
In response to your last point, You'd have to make an argument that Zerg is overpowered. (Well you can't... because its fucking stupid, and anyone on this website should know that, it would be neat to see you try though...)
On October 14 2009 22:39 LeoTheLion wrote: kev don't be a deuche
and type-b is a fluke? are you for real? that kid's almost (mayb even better) as good as yarnc
Sweet, thanks for the insult.
Without trying to sound like a dick, tybe-b might be good some day, but no... his win list is barely speckled with Vs over reputable players. No way he is at Yarnc's level.
The reason they win is because they prepare more efficiently, not because they are Zerg, get a fucking clue.
So Terran and Protoss players NEVER prepare for their matches? That explains why so many random zerg players have been taking down the likes of Flash, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, and Stork. All five players are so cocky that they never prepare for their matches at all. In fact, not just those five, but EVERY SINGLE TERRAN AND PROTOSS PLAYER never prepares for a match. Only zerg players actually prepare for matches. You're right, I need to "get a fucking clue," because the other two races clearly never prepare for their matches.
In response to your last point, You'd have to make an argument that Zerg is overpowered. (Well you can't... because its fucking stupid, and anyone on this website should know that, it would be neat to see you try though...)
N.B.: Flaming me does not make your points any more valid.
I don't feel like quoting. In bullets:
- I respond to you because I try and kill baseless claims and misinformation before they spread.
- Those two statements are blatantly not the same thing, and anyone who reads books will tell you that.
- You said this already, I'll just repeat myself that it is not always the case that the better player on paper wins, you can go back in time and find plenty of other tournaments with the other races in dominant attendance. I suggest you read up on the Taek-Bang era.
- Hey neat trick, I can twist the argument at run time too! You specifically mentioned Terran players, your claim was about Z versus any race and not ZvP in particular. Whats that third race again? You know, the one that has a massive statistical advantage against Zerg? Let me know if you find that out.
The reason they win is because they prepare more efficiently, not because they are Zerg, get a fucking clue.
So Terran and Protoss players NEVER prepare for their matches? That explains why so many random zerg players have been taking down the likes of Flash, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, and Stork. All five players are so cocky that they never prepare for their matches at all. In fact, not just those five, but EVERY SINGLE TERRAN AND PROTOSS PLAYER never prepares for a match. Only zerg players actually prepare for matches. You're right, I need to "get a fucking clue," because the other two races clearly never prepare for their matches.
In response to your last point, You'd have to make an argument that Zerg is overpowered. (Well you can't... because its fucking stupid, and anyone on this website should know that, it would be neat to see you try though...)
N.B.: Flaming me does not make your points any more valid.
Can you please calm down and stop spewing this rhetoric that makes you sound like an asshole. Sarcasm has its uses, but yelling at people through your keyboard does not make you look very smart either.
Also, please take a step back and realize that these three races have been "balanced" for almost a decade. Zerg doesn't have more individual league wins than P or T. You walking in here and proclaiming things with a condescending attitude doesn't change the evidence -- that in the current Korean proscene, maps influence game balance far more than actual race traits.
And yes, it is "pretty fucking stupid" to argue that Zerg on the whole is overpowered.
On October 14 2009 22:26 Hot_Bid wrote: I love how there'd be no question about imbalance if Bisu had just won that extremely close game one. That means 2-0 Bisu and he's in the OSL.
One extremely close game swings one way = not imba. Shine wins extremely close game = imba.
Please, lets not overreact anymore
that is a silly thing to say, isn't it? there is an 18 page zvp imbalance thread sitting right over there. the one close game is the difference between the discussion spilling into this thread or not, not whether the discussion exists.
there were dozens of 18 page threads complaining about pvz balance before bisu showed up. what is your point, that the number of imbalance threads is correlated with the actual balance of the game? that thread is ridiculous. there's nothing so inherently imbalanced about zvp/pvz that newer maps can't fix.
and you can't deny that theres like a 500% increase in whining protoss players about imbalance when bisu loses a few games.
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
Yeah, but that does kind of completely encapsulate the period of time when Protoss was the strongest, until now where protoss are dropping like flies, and this current "zerg" era has yet to finish, either.
Relax ppl its just a OSL... U know bisu will never win one, on other hand probably he is going to win this MSL. Nice to see pusan beating canata, that I didnt expected. So PVT IMBA POOR CANATA!
lol sry. When is BackHo going to play the OSL? he and Perfectman are the protoss hope (Yes and Gosi[flying], yes Oz Toss and Estro Toss FTW)
I fucking hate Bisu now. He needs to stop dicking around and just be Jaedong and be a rapefest for one season. Rather than some guy that owns at proleague, takes out S-Class players like Jaedong and Flash, and then loses to A minus level (maybe B level) pros in early round of individual league matches against the likes of Zero, Shine, and go.go.
On October 15 2009 00:34 StarN wrote: I fucking hate Bisu now. He needs to stop dicking around and just be Jaedong and be a rapefest for one season. Rather than some guy that owns at proleague, takes out S-Class players like Jaedong and Flash, and then loses to A minus level (maybe B level) pros in early round of individual league matches against the likes of Zero, Shine, and go.go.
My thoughts exactly. His sloppyness and tendency to lose to meh players is getting extremely anoying.
Wow, if Stork/Jangbi don't advance next week the pool of Protoss players in the Round of 16 is going to be truly pitiful. I'm glad Pusan made it in, but to be honest I don't see him doing much in the Round of 16 - in my book Pusan is to EVER 09 OSL as Tester was to the Batoo OSL. I guess Horang an Movie could still advance and play some decent games, but even still, we'd probably see all Protoss exterminated by the Ro8 again.
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
Kyo is just dumb for trying to say that Z is overpowered. If anything T is overpowered and these statistics reflect it. TvZ 248-200? Damn You call that equal? lol
So is uhmm.. Bisu cursed from the OSL or something? whenever he makes it past the ro16 he plays a teammate and now we have random ass zergs beating him (by.hero, shine)
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
Proleage isn't a valid argument. Players are sending only on maps they have a shot to win. Starleague stats are a really really better argument. And only few protoss players will be in OSL and MSL
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
Proleage isn't a valid argument. Players are sending only on maps they have a shot to win. Starleague stats are a really really better argument. And only few protoss players will be in OSL and MSL
yeah proleague sucks, good players don't play in it and the maps suck anyway.
What's the big deal? Bisu has been failing in Starleagues for a while now. He needed BackHo to drop to get back into Batoo after losing to by.hero, only to be rolled by fantasy; he picked sub-.500 go.go who proceeded to deep six him in Bacchus, then lost to ZerO; he needlessly threw away hordes of units against Iris in their Avalon series; he lost to sAviOr (who he chose) and Zero in Lost Saga.
It feels like he gets bumped by terrans almost as often as he does by zergs.
Time to face facts: Bisu will always find ways to lose.
On October 14 2009 23:25 scintilliaSD wrote: I made a sign that said "Spirit will set you free (Hi Plexa!)" but I wasn't put on camera because I'm Asian
yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not the reason. are you butt ugly?
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
I'm not arguing that there is a ZvP imbalance, but those stats only tell us how well the races do against each other on maps where they have a chance. To get an even more accurate picture, you should look at that amount of mirror matches each race had since the amount of mirror matches generally indicate which race has a favorable matchup.
On October 14 2009 23:25 scintilliaSD wrote: I made a sign that said "Spirit will set you free (Hi Plexa!)" but I wasn't put on camera because I'm Asian
yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not the reason. are you butt ugly?
Nice to see you're not banned anymore. -_-;
And now that I think about it, I doubt we'll see many Protosses in the Ro16... maybe 3-4.
Guess which non mirror is the least "imba" based on PL stats????
I'm not arguing that there is a ZvP imbalance, but those stats only tell us how well the races do against each other on maps where they have a chance. To get an even more accurate picture, you should look at that amount of mirror matches each race had since the amount of mirror matches generally indicate which race has a favorable matchup.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
I saw how long this topic was and instantly knew Bisu had lost. However, I didn't expect Bisu fans to be openly wishing for another fluke occurrence to lead to another wild card spot.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
What are you talking about HBR is a pain in the ass for P to take a third.
I dunno, that's just what I remember people saying when the map was new. I haven't watched a whole lot of SC lately and my experiences at the D+ level are kinda meaningless but the third base is right there next to the natural. But even if the 3rd is hard for the P to take the 4th is also hard for the Z to take.
On October 15 2009 05:47 QuakerOats wrote: I dunno, that's just what I remember people saying when the map was new. I haven't watched a whole lot of SC lately and my experiences at the D+ level are kinda meaningless but the third base is right there next to the natural. But even if the 3rd is hard for the P to take the 4th is also hard for the Z to take.
On October 10 2009 11:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I dunno what you mean by it is hard for the P to secure a 3rd.. it is REALLY easy. If you expand behind your force move out time there is no way a z can get at it without going uphill versus storm / P army and once the expansion has the block with static defense it is damn near impossible to break until swarm or severely overwhelming forces. The bang for your buck potential on HB grossly favors protoss.
Like what uniquely about the map helps z? The mineral allows for another expansion? The mineral has a huge gaping ramp in front of it and a path to the side. It is also miles away from the production hatches and has 2 uphill ramps between the main/production and the mineral base.
EVEN if you nail down that mineral and eventually secure the gas expansion behind it you are costing yourself static defense there AND at your original 3rd AND your main. If you rely on army all the P has to do (generally) is engage, pull back up a hill storm and roll over. If you try and counter mid/late game you are met with blocks and storms and that leaves only 1 thing to do: drop. Which the P knows so he has cannons/temps set up. It is a painful 20~30 minute process but I cannot tell you how many times I got whittled down due to facing a goon/temp heavy army while trying to counter/drop all day.
Is HB like REALLY bad? no.. there are worse. But imo unless you are a progamer (stats are skewed, Z's are generally better than the P's atm) this map is really hard for z's vs p's at the B to A- ranks imo.
On October 11 2009 17:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote: 1. z progamers are better/outnumber the good P progamers, pro stats don't take that into account for map balance.
2. The map favors easier defense setups than other maps. YOu talk about how Z's can counter.. yep. They do that on ALL maps. This map uniquely makes a counter less productive if prepared for (as P's at higher levels all do). And by prepared I mean like literally 1 gateway, 4 cannons and a temp to absolutely shut down a 3rd. Additionally the 3rd is completely separate from the main so all unit cost for taking down the 3rd is cost specific to that third alone, not a main or another natural. This means amplified cost effective static defenses with a cleanup from the army OR simply a direct counter all result in a base trade of a P 3rd for a Z nat/main or (MORE CRITICAL) Z 3rd or 4th.
I could go on.. but I won't for now
On October 12 2009 01:44 {88}iNcontroL wrote: But all that is really too specific for what I am saying. This map offers nothing that specifically makes the z counters good. You keep saying "he can make mutas to snipe temp" on what map does z not do that? "he can do small ling drops" SAME? "he can harrass expansions" same? My argument is that map has small chokes (ample for building block offs) and multiple entry points (bad for lurkers, static defense and z in general).
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
uh is it just me or does anyone else think you two are misinterpreting what he's saying then repeating what he's saying? He's not saying "Templars are now easy to kill" and neither is he "crying imba", he's saying that templars, with their slow movement and low hp, have always been easy to kill and that templars are critical to PvZ. You're reading his sentence incorrectly:
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, |pvz is all about those templars now| and |they are an absolute joke to kill|... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
also he`s saying himself, right at very end of his post in plain sight: "i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats", and then you two go on to repeat this exact same idea in your posts.
i don`t know if it`s just me, but i`m seeing more and more people getting way too sensitive about ZvP imbalance discussions.
I`ll also randomly add\rant that this seems to be the case with JD fanboys as well. Before it was mostly Bisu fanboys who were the really sensitive and obnoxious ones, but now I think JD fanboys are the ones who are the most annoying and stubborn. I guess success will always destroy humility and bring in ignorance, and in the case of JD fanboys, very ironically so.
I'm conflicted...on one hand I always love seeing SKT1 fail, but on the other hand I get nervous when it feels like there are no Protoss players performing at an S-class level.
Bisu IS clearly a beast, he recently beat both Jaedong and Flash, he just needs to get better at dominating noobs so things like this don't happen...
Hopefully the Terran players can hold on, at least. I don't think I'll be able to take it if we have two ZvZ finals again.
all those mediocre zergs and all the zerg fans denying that there is something seriously wrong with zvp lately deserve thousands and thousands of mech tvz. mech is karma´s revenge on zergs. if there are no more toss left, i wish all the zerg players see and play nothing else than mech tvz and zvz.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Of course theres no 'buff' but surely you noticed the overall skill level of zergs is higher, that is what has changed. Average progamers like Shine are playing ZvP at the level of higher players from even just a year ago.
On October 15 2009 05:34 Jaksiel wrote: I saw how long this topic was and instantly knew Bisu had lost. However, I didn't expect Bisu fans to be openly wishing for another fluke occurrence to lead to another wild card spot.
exactly, it's always weird to spoil yourself like this. But, it's always easier to wish than to face reality. I still can't quite believe that I watched ForGG 3-0 Jaedong.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
On October 15 2009 06:09 Hinanawi wrote: Bisu IS clearly a beast, he recently beat both Jaedong and Flash, he just needs to get better at dominating noobs so things like this don't happen...
Actually he needs to work on his individual league stability. He ate noobs for breakfast in the previous PL so crushing A/B players shouldn't be his problem.
Maybe he has a Bo3/Bo5 weakness?
I do hope he manages to pull himself together and get to MSL final though. He's the only decent protoss out there at the moment. Stork seems to be recovering, but well, lets just say he's still Stork. Jangbi and Kal are having ups and downs.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
now? protoss has cried nonstop for years
actually, I take that back; there was like a month after Bisu beat Savior that protoss players ceased the crying.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
When zergs cried, protoss told them to be quiet. We are merely fulfilling the cycle.
The problem is mostly mutas, Calm vs Backho+Movie, Much vs Type-b, tonight's games. Mutas were the downfall. I'd personally wait a bit to see if the pros get good at incorporating DAs in their build.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
Terrans didnt cry because we are the most manly race.
zergs didnt cry too much after bisus 3-0 over savior because they had just wittnessed one year of total zvp domination. with the exception of the taekbang era, which lasted only for about 6 months, protoss has never been the dominant race in over 8 years of fully developed pro sc. zerg had over 1 year of saviors reign, they had the last 6 months, they had july buttraping pretty much every protoss he faces for the past 5 years and so on.
u simply had soo much more "good times", so plz dont bash us toss players for being pissed off about us always being behind whenever a metagame shift occurs. in the history of pvz, protoss had to take it in the butt for about 60% of the time, and about 30% of the time it was pretty much an even matchup. i guess me and most of the other protoss fans are just distressed because almost every korean toss pro sucks at pvz or is not anyway near s-class level in general. bisu pretty much was our only hope. i guess thats why so many ppl, including myself, consider this one game, this one player failing as an indicator of a much bigger issue. but well, time will tell...
On October 15 2009 08:03 Hot_Bid wrote: seriously, oh no Bisu missed an OSL, shit happens
its not like hes won a bunch of them and its a big surprise he's eliminated
Oh, absolutely. No problem whatsoever that the only Protoss who's not getting dominated by Zergs right now got eliminated in the first round. After all, he's just one player. The one good Protoss player.
I suppose TvZ is still entertaining to watch, at least.
also i predict the rebirth of the flash vs. jaedong rivalry cause of anti-toss maps and a hopefully reinvigorated flash eventually meeting a very-in-form jaedong
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
When zergs cried, protoss told them to be quiet. We are merely fulfilling the cycle.
The problem is mostly mutas, Calm vs Backho+Movie, Much vs Type-b, tonight's games. Mutas were the downfall. I'd personally wait a bit to see if the pros get good at incorporating DAs in their build.
Because Protoss started dominating Zerg for the first time EVER. Zerg had their time since the beginning of StarCraft. Protoss finally got to even out with Zerg after Bisu's MSL Final with sAviOr and only recently started beating Zerg more often.
Now it's back to being ridiculously stacked Z>P.
Zerg happens to adapt super quickly too whereas Protoss took ages to come up with a player like Bisu to shift the tides.
On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote: He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats
I don't get lines like this.
Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?
Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.
Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.
Zergs cried, then they adapted
Protoss cried, and they'll adapt sooner or later.
Everyone cried so why does it matter if Protoss does it now?
When zergs cried, protoss told them to be quiet. We are merely fulfilling the cycle.
The problem is mostly mutas, Calm vs Backho+Movie, Much vs Type-b, tonight's games. Mutas were the downfall. I'd personally wait a bit to see if the pros get good at incorporating DAs in their build.
Because Protoss started dominating Zerg for the first time EVER. Zerg had their time since the beginning of StarCraft. Protoss finally got to even out with Zerg after Bisu's MSL Final with sAviOr and only recently started beating Zerg more often.
Now it's back to being ridiculously stacked Z>P.
Zerg happens to adapt super quickly too whereas Protoss took ages to come up with a player like Bisu to shift the tides.
beginning of SC? lol??? Zerg didn't win an OSL till July > Reach in 2004 and an MSL until GoRush > Nada in YATGK
And freemura wasn't fully zerg, or atleast didn't play it in his OSL final
If there wasn't an easily defendable 3rd gas all the time then the 3 hat -> 5 hat build wouldn't have the gas for the tech switches that fuck protoss, HBR is a PvZ graveyard, less gas heavy maps will fix the balance.
yeah i'm late, i just watched nuke's commentary of it and i don't know if i agree with his suggestion for protoss to go dark archon, jangbi got owned pretty bad with it.
I just watched game 3 and I have a few questions. Where did Bisu's corsairs go and why did he get zealot speed so late? The zealots couldn't funnel from behind the dragoons fast enough to do anything.
There does need to be more good protoss to even things out on the pro scene and I hate to to see Bisu go.
But I really enjoy Shine's hyper aggressive style and sick muta harass->guardian play (lol)so I don't really mind Shine moving on. If it was another standard playing, medicore, "up and coming" zerg that took Bisu out, I'd be screaming Imba with the rest of my fellow Bisu fans as well.
On October 16 2009 11:12 lone_hydra wrote: There does need to be more good protoss to even things out on the pro scene and I hate to to see Bisu go.
But I really enjoy Shine's hyper aggressive style and sick muta harass->guardian play (lol)so I don't really mind Shine moving on. If it was another standard playing, medicore, "up and coming" zerg that took Bisu out, I'd be screaming Imba with the rest of my fellow Bisu fans as well.
Shine IS mediocre. Bisu is the best toss in the world. Do you really not see the issue here?
They really really need to make Ro36 matches bo3 or something... And this isn't just an opinion solely from Bisu losing here. This happens way too much to good players.
On October 16 2009 12:29 Mazer wrote: They really really need to make Ro36 matches bo3 or something... And this isn't just an opinion solely from Bisu losing here. This happens way too much to good players.
Uhh, they were BO3. The OP just did a poor job of showing this.
On October 16 2009 11:12 lone_hydra wrote: There does need to be more good protoss to even things out on the pro scene and I hate to to see Bisu go.
But I really enjoy Shine's hyper aggressive style and sick muta harass->guardian play (lol)so I don't really mind Shine moving on. If it was another standard playing, medicore, "up and coming" zerg that took Bisu out, I'd be screaming Imba with the rest of my fellow Bisu fans as well.
Shine IS mediocre. Bisu is the best toss in the world. Do you really not see the issue here?
Yeah, the problem is that it's unlikely Shine will play as good in the following rounds.
Zerg dominates quick expo builds now, just dominates. Protoss should stop and think, this is the time to cheese more, to use da more, dweb, shield upgrades, maybe even "terrible" units like scouts , scouts are fat, can kill drones, tough when upgraded, they can take out small groups of hydra too, maybe there is a way to deal with scourge too, nothing in sc is useless, we saw queens and devourers in zvt recently.
Seriously it's time for Protoss to revamp their builds and mindset, or rise to another level with storm usage (which they fail to accomplish), it can't get much worse than right now, they are losing 3 games out of 4.
On October 16 2009 12:29 Mazer wrote: They really really need to make Ro36 matches bo3 or something... And this isn't just an opinion solely from Bisu losing here. This happens way too much to good players.
Uhh, they were BO3. The OP just did a poor job of showing this.
Oh my, I feel silly..
Guess it's been a while since I've watched any games. Thanks for clearing that up.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/EVERSL.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/207.jpg)
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fOrGG vs 
Pusan![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/noimage.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/444.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/623.jpg)
Shine![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/125.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c385/jenniferjeanne/fuck_yeah.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i072.radikal.ru/0910/68/e6614bd81060.gif)
![[image loading]](http://theswedishknot.com/blogallcreatures/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/handspun-hat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4073/donotwant.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2315/wowliquibet.png)
![[image loading]](http://i31.tinypic.com/2qckmjd.jpg)
