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motbob
United States12546 Posts
EDIT2: Since about page 30 this thread has turned into a haven for statistics nerds! Enter at your own risk.
EDIT: I'm a strong believer in the theory that maps can fix any balance issues inherent in the way Blizzard designed the races. Therefore, I believe that the imbalance I'm talking about in this OP will pass eventually. However, what I really wanted this thread to be about was why the matchup shifted towards zergs for no obvious reason over the past 8 months. I was hoping that some people would have some theories on that.
ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage.
Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after).
Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%).
Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced?
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Perhaps its the players, not the match-up?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:15 barth wrote:
Perhaps its the players, not the match-up?
Zerg players with progaming licenses are inherently better than Protoss players?
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9071 Posts
A wise man once said (seriously who was that? FS?) that if protoss is losing, nothings wrong with the balance. If they are winning there must be something wrong, so I think the situation right now is nothing surprising if you look at the MU historically
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not even at the semi pro level. I never play zerg, and I played as zerg the other day against a protoss, and I won without even following a strict BO. go figure.
I just massed hydras
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ZvP has always been the most imba match up in starcraft..
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On September 25 2009 17:19 BookTwo wrote:
not even at the semi pro level. I never play zerg, and I played as zerg the other day against a protoss, and I won without even following a strict BO. go figure.
I just massed hydras
I can beat c+ zergs TvZ with gaycute leta/fantasy style builds.
Go figure.
edit: like the person below.
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Have you watched the recent Preseason games? But yes, Protoss needs more innovation, and everyone knows ZvP is inherently imbalanced. It's just that Zerg seems to have a lot more options with an easy 3-base 3-gas that's so common in maps nowadays.
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United States2186 Posts
Pretty simple.
Nearly all of the best Tosses are slumping overall. It's just not as noticeable with PvT because most of the maps are really toss favored so the stats come out relatively even.
Not really a big deal. Every race has their ups and downs.
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I'm guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
destination @ iccup zvp = 51% 16,000 games
Outsider @ iccup zvp = 50.89% over 3,000+ games
Neo Medusa @ iccup zvp = 52% with just under 3k games
seems pretty balanced to me..
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Stop making silly 2nd entrence with mineralpatch kind of maps that favour 9 pool alot imo.
Altho that may not be a problem on progaming level maybe -,-
Zerg has so many options with 3 hatch 3 gas---> 5 hatch 3 gas , den and spire at the same time never gives any intel anyways ;p
Perhaps its as simple as mutta control being out of control ? Lets just hope Bisu JR shows his face soon and starts raping jaedong until he slumps
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:24 lokiM wrote:
im guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
You're absolutely correct! I am only talking about in the pro scene. In fact, I even say so in the OP!
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personally ive always felt z balance is a bit off, zvp is really easy esp. in hive tech, zvt is so fucking hard, zvz is just a screwed matchup
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On September 25 2009 17:26 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 17:24 lokiM wrote:
im guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
You're absolutely correct! I am only talking about in the pro scene. In fact, I even say so in the OP!
did you edit the first line? because i read it right when you posted, and I took it as you were complaining and only comparing the overal stats
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ITT toss fanboys. Close the thread please? It's not like it's going anywhere...
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On September 25 2009 17:26 iamho wrote:
personally ive always felt z balance is a bit off, zvp is really easy esp. in hive tech, zvt is so fucking hard, zvz is just a screwed matchup
man i hate being like yarnc (best matchup zvt, great/respectable zvz, terrible zvp...)
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On September 25 2009 17:24 lokiM wrote:
I'm guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
destination @ iccup zvp = 51% 16,000 games
Outsider @ iccup zvp = 50.89% over 3,000+ games
Neo Medusa @ iccup zvp = 52% with just under 3k games
seems pretty balanced to me..
Link to source of these stats plz  (not questioning them just cant find them on iccup site)
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I kind of wish progamer protosses would play something other than standard FE->Starport/Citadel->dts. It's predictability allows zergs to counter against it way too easily.
Personally, it's really frustrating to watch a PvZ as a protoss fan, because basically the zerg is the one that can do all the cute rushes and tricks for basically the first 10 minutes of the game. While the protoss has this one build that only works if everything the zerg tries fails.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:29 lokiM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 17:26 motbob wrote:On September 25 2009 17:24 lokiM wrote:
im guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
You're absolutely correct! I am only talking about in the pro scene. In fact, I even say so in the OP! did you edit the first line? because i read it right when you posted, and I took it as you were complaining and only comparing the overal stats
I did edit it, but before you (or anyone else) posted.
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EPT
