[OSL] EVER 2009 Round of 36 Group A/B - Page 46

On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote:
He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, pvz is all about those templars now and they are an absolute joke to kill... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats

On October 15 2009 05:16 On_Slaught wrote:


I don't get lines like this.

Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?

Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.

On October 15 2009 05:37 QuakerOats wrote:


Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.

On October 15 2009 05:47 QuakerOats wrote:
I dunno, that's just what I remember people saying when the map was new. I haven't watched a whole lot of SC lately and my experiences at the D+ level are kinda meaningless but the third base is right there next to the natural. But even if the 3rd is hard for the P to take the 4th is also hard for the Z to take.

On October 10 2009 11:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I dunno what you mean by it is hard for the P to secure a 3rd.. it is REALLY easy. If you expand behind your force move out time there is no way a z can get at it without going uphill versus storm / P army and once the expansion has the block with static defense it is damn near impossible to break until swarm or severely overwhelming forces. The bang for your buck potential on HB grossly favors protoss.

Like what uniquely about the map helps z? The mineral allows for another expansion? The mineral has a huge gaping ramp in front of it and a path to the side. It is also miles away from the production hatches and has 2 uphill ramps between the main/production and the mineral base.

EVEN if you nail down that mineral and eventually secure the gas expansion behind it you are costing yourself static defense there AND at your original 3rd AND your main. If you rely on army all the P has to do (generally) is engage, pull back up a hill storm and roll over. If you try and counter mid/late game you are met with blocks and storms and that leaves only 1 thing to do: drop. Which the P knows so he has cannons/temps set up. It is a painful 20~30 minute process but I cannot tell you how many times I got whittled down due to facing a goon/temp heavy army while trying to counter/drop all day.

Is HB like REALLY bad? no.. there are worse. But imo unless you are a progamer (stats are skewed, Z's are generally better than the P's atm) this map is really hard for z's vs p's at the B to A- ranks imo.

On October 11 2009 17:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
1. z progamers are better/outnumber the good P progamers, pro stats don't take that into account for map balance.

2. The map favors easier defense setups than other maps. YOu talk about how Z's can counter.. yep. They do that on ALL maps. This map uniquely makes a counter less productive if prepared for (as P's at higher levels all do). And by prepared I mean like literally 1 gateway, 4 cannons and a temp to absolutely shut down a 3rd. Additionally the 3rd is completely separate from the main so all unit cost for taking down the 3rd is cost specific to that third alone, not a main or another natural. This means amplified cost effective static defenses with a cleanup from the army OR simply a direct counter all result in a base trade of a P 3rd for a Z nat/main or (MORE CRITICAL) Z 3rd or 4th.

I could go on.. but I won't for now

On October 12 2009 01:44 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
But all that is really too specific for what I am saying. This map offers nothing that specifically makes the z counters good. You keep saying "he can make mutas to snipe temp" on what map does z not do that? "he can do small ling drops" SAME? "he can harrass expansions" same? My argument is that map has small chokes (ample for building block offs) and multiple entry points (bad for lurkers, static defense and z in general).

On October 15 2009 05:37 QuakerOats wrote:


Exactly this. Did Zergs cry PvZ imba when Bisu owned Savior with the FE? Well, maybe, I didn't play Starcraft then. But they adapted with new build orders, such as this one which involves using hydras and sniping high templars with mutas. It may be the case that ZvP is inherently imbalanced but it doesn't even seem like tosses are trying anything different. And maps don't have a whole lot to do with it IMO. Everyone was saying HBR was a toss map when it came out. 4th bases are really far away and hard to defend while the 3rd base is fairly easy to defend for the P.

On October 14 2009 21:21 sauc wrote:
He had no templars because shine just ran his mutas in his entire goon army and killed them, |pvz is all about those templars now| and |they are an absolute joke to kill|... once they are down even if he lost alot of mutas in the process the hydras alone will easily sweep any protoss army without ht's i don't know what protoss can do right now but they need to discover new strats

On October 15 2009 06:05 synapse wrote:
LOL BISU
thats just terrible... osl curse yeah, but RO36? SHINE???

On October 15 2009 05:16 On_Slaught wrote:


I don't get lines like this.

Have zerg been buffed in some way? Were HTs nerfed recently that I didn't know about?

Yes, the maps aren't the most conducive to protoss victories, but the map didn't let all of his HTs get sniped. Don't blame the zerg for using their units better. Protoss needs to adapt. The races are the exact same as when the dragons ruled the world. The maps are different yes, but they do not account for all of this "imbalance" between z and p atm. A lot of that is on the players who refuse to do anything but FE into mass goons with a few HTs for good measure.

On October 15 2009 07:31 arb wrote:
My liquibet went up to 61 woot.

probably my voting pusan to win and everyone voting bisu to win

yay me

On October 15 2009 05:34 Jaksiel wrote:
I saw how long this topic was and instantly knew Bisu had lost. However, I didn't expect Bisu fans to be openly wishing for another fluke occurrence to lead to another wild card spot.