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[Q] Why do progamers use guardians?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
Sulunais
Profile Joined December 2007
Korea (South)34 Posts
August 13 2009 04:57 GMT
#1
I've barely played Starcraft for the last 10 years, but I've watched a fair bit on TV. So although I don't know much about the mechanics of play, I guess I can read and understand games pretty well. But one thing keeps bugging me. I see a lot of games where zerg appears to have an advantage, they build a greater spire and try to do damage with guardians. It looks impressive, and sometimes works, but in most cases leads to them being over-powered on the ground.

I've heard amateurs on these forums recommend guardians, so why is it that they perform so badly in professional games? And why do progamers keep using them?
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19346 Posts
August 13 2009 05:02 GMT
#2
i think leftover muta from harrass are the only ones turned to guards, but i could be wrong
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
August 13 2009 05:03 GMT
#3
You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same.

"depends on the players"


if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly.
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1803 Posts
August 13 2009 05:05 GMT
#4
On August 13 2009 14:02 icystorage wrote:
i think leftover muta from harrass are the only ones turned to guards, but i could be wrong


This is mostly true.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
August 13 2009 05:07 GMT
#5
On August 13 2009 14:03 travis wrote:
You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same.

"depends on the players"


if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly.

Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol.
GANDHISAUCE
General_Han
Profile Joined August 2009
Australia6 Posts
August 13 2009 05:18 GMT
#6
I would have thought that using guardian is ideal to get your opponent surprised and knock them off their gamplan. I'm no serious programer myself (Terran Player) but i have found them to be quite annoying to deal with especially when caught off guard.

But as mentioned above, leftover mutalisks do tend to get morphed into guardians for some additional harassing power.

cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
August 13 2009 05:20 GMT
#7
Guardian Hydra used to be a standard play until SK Terran an then they were just big Irradiate clouds to break your Hydralisks
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-13 05:24:52
August 13 2009 05:21 GMT
#8
you might have noticed a certain map, outsider, really favors guardian play. It has to do with the map layout. aerial play is good as the territory around your main is extremely defensible against ground attacks (thus increasing the relative value of air units and decreasing the value of your opponent's ground army). you have only have to defend one choke point to effectively control 4 bases. further, it's extremely good for the 2 hatch mutalisk ZvT opening because you can take a double gas expansion that itself is essentially an island. you have everything you could possibly dream of for supporting 2 hatch muta play (except for a cliff over the opponent's natural that is not also part of his main).

2 hatch muta is a low econ strategy, but due to the double gas, you do have an enormous potential income of vespene. since you haven't got as many minerals as you might like to compliment the enormous vespene income (and because the map has very few routes for ground forces) guardians are an extremely tempting choice. on outsider, typically guardian use is intended defensively as their name might suggest, but in other instances it tends to be used more aggressively (and is typically designed as a surprise)
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Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
August 13 2009 05:21 GMT
#9
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2009 14:03 travis wrote:
You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same.

"depends on the players"


if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly.

Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol.


This is true. Curiously, Jaedong has only won one or two games out of the perhaps dozen or so in which he opts for guardians.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Leunal
Profile Joined February 2008
United States127 Posts
August 13 2009 05:22 GMT
#10
Another thing to keep in mind is the map. Some maps are absolutely abysmal for guardians because there may be no ridges or terrain for them to fly over like Python. Some other maps are good like Outsider since they can be used to defend expos easily and such.
oh dee
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
August 13 2009 06:07 GMT
#11
Guards aren't bad when you have a bit of a lead in late game. They can kill some scvs and eat some irradiates. It even gives you a nice chance to scourge the vessels coming to clean it up, especially if they try to eraser to save some energy.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
August 13 2009 07:05 GMT
#12
progamers dont use guardians THAT often, and when they do they usually lose
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 13 2009 07:05 GMT
#13
You're right that guardians tend not to do so well in high level Starcraft anymore. In low level Starcraft it's a different story, of course, but in high level Starcraft you only use it if your opponent has nothing to overcome it i.e. in ZvT if he has a lot of tanks but few science vessels or in ZvP if he has no corsairs and very few high templar.
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Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
August 13 2009 07:22 GMT
#14
On August 13 2009 14:03 travis wrote:
You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same.

"depends on the players"


if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly.


No jaedong guardians blow
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
DIMJkE
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Bulgaria425 Posts
August 13 2009 07:28 GMT
#15
Terran Science Vessel Erasers are just too strong against Guardians.
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-13 07:39:17
August 13 2009 07:36 GMT
#16
I am not a good player, but I can share the view, that most often when I use guardians, I lose, too.

Since I realized that, I only use guardians when they can be cliffed to attack workers at an expo. You can be sure that they will be quickly dealt with by a decent player anyway, but this way I feel you get your resources worth back in disruption of the opponent economy.

It also serves to draw his attention, while I attack another expo with my main army, or can take my time to nicely flank his.

Usually I only use leftover mutas, just in cases where an expo is particularely exposed, I somtimes explicitly replenish initial muta numbers to, say, 8 or 10.

When I upgrade air attack during the muta phase, the guardian option is slightly more favorable (gets you more worker kills, or perhaps even some building kills).
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
August 13 2009 07:37 GMT
#17
As many have said here there are many reasons and variations on the reasoning for it, primarily the map can determine the use, as Failsafe has mentioned - the current 'map cycle' isn't huge for arial attack plays, with perhaps the exception of outsider and maybe carthage? (Correct me if I'm wrong on that one)

You go back and look at carrier glory days, during the GSI on gom, just about every toss would start churning out carriers on katrina and maybe othello, then they started getting phased out after a certain young man decided 'g' spam was the way to victory.

So imo it's mainly the map that decides the use of guardians (or x unit), and the reason the fail in high level gaming is because of the 'relatively' easy countering, and they keep using them still because... leftover muta's as mentioned already.
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
August 13 2009 07:37 GMT
#18
On August 13 2009 14:20 cgrinker wrote:
Guardian Hydra used to be a standard play until SK Terran an then they were just big Irradiate clouds to break your Hydralisks

Hehe kinda true Guard/Hydra was during 1.07, then a whole bunch of shit happened, then SK Terran broke out in 2004 Guardians are good against a Terran than goes Heavy tank (ie 3fac/2fac tank) and were a rather standard counter - THEN SK Terran broke out - which raped it ridiculously. The reason why Guardians were a better choice when there are a large number of tanks is because it means the Terran is using all his gas on Vessels, so you dont have to worry about though. Plus, Ultras take a shitload of damage from Tanks - so its better to have long ranged guardians to counter the tanks.

Since Terran's rarely go heavy tank, guardian use is pretty map dependent and situation dependent. For instance, on a map like Outsider the easy access to a double gas expo (the island) and the strength of muta harass usually goes well with a Guardian strat. The cliffs and semi-island style of the map also support the use of guardians.

Against Protoss, their use is much more limited. But they can be annoying when you least expect them. I think they are quite good when Protoss goes reavers (since it means they aren't building as many templar ie less storm) but the jury is still out on that one. For an example of this watch Calm vs Best game 3 on Destination from their recent WCG match.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
August 13 2009 08:19 GMT
#19
They're not normally used in games because by the time they're viable the enemy already has units that easily handle them.
Zerg: Scourge Muta
Terran: Vessels Marines(if they're out in the open) Wraiths and Valkyries
Toss: Corsair HT-Storm and Goons

I've mainly seen them used in TvP after muta harass if terran is in some sort of a contain by lurkers and they're guarding their natural expansion. They're good then because you can stop terran from mining in that base and snipe vessels with scourges if they come to irradiate the guardians. Easy way to put terran back to one base.

But yes mostly they're weak and can be taken down by any player with ease.
MoRe_mInErAls
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Canada1210 Posts
August 13 2009 08:27 GMT
#20
I wish Guardians would at least outrange Goliaths. Mech makes me so angry as a Zerg player
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