EPTI've heard amateurs on these forums recommend guardians, so why is it that they perform so badly in professional games? And why do progamers keep using them?
[Q] Why do progamers use guardians?
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Sulunais
Korea (South)34 Posts
I've heard amateurs on these forums recommend guardians, so why is it that they perform so badly in professional games? And why do progamers keep using them? | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19346 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
"depends on the players" if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:02 icystorage wrote: i think leftover muta from harrass are the only ones turned to guards, but i could be wrong This is mostly true. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:03 travis wrote: You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same. "depends on the players" if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly. Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. | ||
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General_Han
Australia6 Posts
But as mentioned above, leftover mutalisks do tend to get morphed into guardians for some additional harassing power. | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
2 hatch muta is a low econ strategy, but due to the double gas, you do have an enormous potential income of vespene. since you haven't got as many minerals as you might like to compliment the enormous vespene income (and because the map has very few routes for ground forces) guardians are an extremely tempting choice. on outsider, typically guardian use is intended defensively as their name might suggest, but in other instances it tends to be used more aggressively (and is typically designed as a surprise) | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote: Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. This is true. Curiously, Jaedong has only won one or two games out of the perhaps dozen or so in which he opts for guardians. | ||
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Leunal
United States127 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:03 travis wrote: You could replace guardians with any unit here, and I would reply the same. "depends on the players" if jaedong makes guardians they probably won't perform badly. No jaedong guardians blow | ||
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DIMJkE
Bulgaria425 Posts
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
Since I realized that, I only use guardians when they can be cliffed to attack workers at an expo. You can be sure that they will be quickly dealt with by a decent player anyway, but this way I feel you get your resources worth back in disruption of the opponent economy. It also serves to draw his attention, while I attack another expo with my main army, or can take my time to nicely flank his. Usually I only use leftover mutas, just in cases where an expo is particularely exposed, I somtimes explicitly replenish initial muta numbers to, say, 8 or 10. When I upgrade air attack during the muta phase, the guardian option is slightly more favorable (gets you more worker kills, or perhaps even some building kills). | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1240 Posts
You go back and look at carrier glory days, during the GSI on gom, just about every toss would start churning out carriers on katrina and maybe othello, then they started getting phased out after a certain young man decided 'g' spam was the way to victory. So imo it's mainly the map that decides the use of guardians (or x unit), and the reason the fail in high level gaming is because of the 'relatively' easy countering, and they keep using them still because... leftover muta's as mentioned already. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:20 cgrinker wrote: Guardian Hydra used to be a standard play until SK Terran an then they were just big Irradiate clouds to break your Hydralisks Hehe kinda true  Guard/Hydra was during 1.07, then a whole bunch of shit happened, then SK Terran broke out in 2004  Guardians are good against a Terran than goes Heavy tank (ie 3fac/2fac tank) and were a rather standard counter - THEN SK Terran broke out - which raped it ridiculously. The reason why Guardians were a better choice when there are a large number of tanks is because it means the Terran is using all his gas on Vessels, so you dont have to worry about though. Plus, Ultras take a shitload of damage from Tanks - so its better to have long ranged guardians to counter the tanks. Since Terran's rarely go heavy tank, guardian use is pretty map dependent and situation dependent. For instance, on a map like Outsider the easy access to a double gas expo (the island) and the strength of muta harass usually goes well with a Guardian strat. The cliffs and semi-island style of the map also support the use of guardians. Against Protoss, their use is much more limited. But they can be annoying when you least expect them. I think they are quite good when Protoss goes reavers (since it means they aren't building as many templar ie less storm) but the jury is still out on that one. For an example of this watch Calm vs Best game 3 on Destination from their recent WCG match. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
Zerg: Scourge Muta Terran: Vessels Marines(if they're out in the open) Wraiths and Valkyries Toss: Corsair HT-Storm and Goons I've mainly seen them used in TvP after muta harass if terran is in some sort of a contain by lurkers and they're guarding their natural expansion. They're good then because you can stop terran from mining in that base and snipe vessels with scourges if they come to irradiate the guardians. Easy way to put terran back to one base. But yes mostly they're weak and can be taken down by any player with ease. | ||
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MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
So in my opinion, guardians shouldn't be used unless the Terran player is really caught off guard. | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
guardian tech makes use of the leftover mutalisks. Yes, it can be useful, but as a Terran player I'm definitely glad when my opponent tries to power guardians instead of lurkers/ultras | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Unless he sees it coming and prepares a few wraiths. | ||
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Mah Buckit!
Finland474 Posts
I guess Guards suck ´cos they are slow+slow firing, are rather expensive and fragile. If they did splash like tanks they would own. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Guards are actually very nice for taking down campers who have turtled up a position and for defending in certain circumstances. The problem is that they die fast to sci vessels/wraiths/corsairs in any significant numbers and don't even get started on psy storm. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
Might be because they're just so used to play defilers/glings/lurks/ultras. If you really want to win games with guards you need to know how much vessels the terran have. Otherwise it's just a lose / lose situation. Sure guards are really annoying when used in cliff/bridge/water but nowadays a lot of terrans know how to get rid of them properly. I'd rather watch hydras/lurks/defilers instead of mass ultras/guards in play against Terran though  | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote: Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. It's cuz Flash is always there to instantly irradiate all of them  Anyway, guardians working or not really depends on the map and the harass-ability of that map. If you can use leftover mutas (after vessels) to make guardians with the extra gas you might have and can have them kill some scvs or w/e while over a cliff, then sure. *btw, i have seen people lure mnm into stop lurker with guardians... vessels were with the other half of the army, lucky lucky. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
On August 13 2009 23:10 RaiZ wrote: Why making them guardians when you can use leftover mutas for defending the freshly new expands ? Cause Mutas get irradiated just like Guardianse do but don't even deal damage? | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On August 13 2009 16:37 Plexa wrote: Against Protoss, their use is much more limited. But they can be annoying when you least expect them. I think they are quite good when Protoss goes reavers (since it means they aren't building as many templar ie less storm) but the jury is still out on that one. For an example of this watch Calm vs Best game 3 on Destination from their recent WCG match. There's an old Jaedong FPVOD vs Much on Blitz where he goes mutaling->guardian->mass ultras. It's really fun to watch | ||
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
Guards are NOT effective vs SK terran with many vessels or most Mech Opening due to goliaths and wraiths. | ||
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Ideas
United States8097 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/coldarmy/motivator5226174.jpg) Jaedong always loses with guardians by always needlessly teching to them :\ | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
) of attention/time to deal with. So basically pro level zergs are spending the gas to out multitask their opponent. Its best to hide 1 or 2 mutas near their min line and when the terran vessel ball starts moving out, move the guard just in range of the minerals and T will alot of times send their vessels back to deal with them before advancing. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote: Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. lol, recent Fantasy game where he just needed muta is a prefect example of how to lose a game with guardians. BoT, Guardians are not very high HP considering the cost. And they require lots of attention and micro to make sure they don't fly into STATIC defenses. It's just a really bad unit overall. | ||
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Steelflight-Rx
United States1389 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:20 cgrinker wrote: Guardian Hydra used to be a standard play until SK Terran an then they were just big Irradiate clouds to break your Hydralisks i used hydra/guard all the time when i played campaign. it was pretty sweet. But yeah, guards kinda suck, i don't know why progamers build them tbh. you'd think they know better by now | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote: Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. Lol proleague finals. | ||
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nicoaldo
Argentina939 Posts
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Sulunais
Korea (South)34 Posts
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On August 13 2009 14:07 De4ngus wrote: Actually, Jaedong said in an interview a while ago, that he doesn't like to use guardians because every time he does, he loses, lol. This is true | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On August 13 2009 21:14 Liquid`Drone wrote: for guardians to function in an actual fight you need to time them so they arrive before he has multiple irradiates and you need to have ensnare in addition. no other zvt scenario has ensnare being as beneficial as it is when going guardian. (i'd rather have 9 guardians and 2 queens with ensnare than 12 guards) i support this post and it needs more attention | ||
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SanguineToss
Canada815 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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