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On June 01 2009 12:08 Day[9] wrote:Pick ONE playstyle, in ONE matchup, on ONE map. (ie, PvZ, early expand corsair style on destination). Then, try to use all the advice I'm providing to hone that one playstyle. You'll be able to get from D to C in probably 2-3 months (as was the case w/ a friend of mine). When you move on to other playstyles or other matchups, not only are your mechanics solid, but also your mindset is in the right place.
OK, so I'm trying out this advice, and I have some questions.
I'm working on 5 hatch hydra PvZ on blue storm. I'm starting to wonder if this is a) too specific, or b) not specific enough.
a) Of course, it is not possible to play 5 hatch hydra every single game, it's totally inappropriate if he 2 gates, or does FE into speedzealots for example. So I seem to need at least 3 fairly distinct game plans.
b) You mentioned that 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra is good at forcing your fast expanding opponent into corsair play. Would that make this build appropriate for someone who wants to practice 5 hatch hydra? It would in theory reduce my options... but it wouldn't really, I'd still need to know how to handle the situation if he ignored my early lair and went for a ground push.
EDIT: b' ) Or maybe I should be visualizing a later stage of the midgame, a well-formed hydra/muta army and 4 bases, perhaps?
Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post (I know you're encouraging us to think for ourselves) but I feel a little stuck when I sit down to work on one specific thing, as you suggest, and only get 1 game out of 8 in which I actually get to build 5 hatcheries and make hydralisks. (half of those were proxies, but never mind) Since you promise excellent results, I want to make sure I'm following your advice correctly. 
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I like attackzerg's line of thinking. Just wanted to add that
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On June 05 2009 06:31 evanthebouncy! wrote:
also im unaware of an island on desti??!?!
Yes in the bottom right. Have you missed it lol?
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On June 05 2009 12:01 threepool wrote:
Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post
Just so you know. Just because day[9] is teaching the fundementals of build orders and strategies does not mean he saying "You can't play standard". What he is doing is giving you(us) the tools to be able to explore those things for yourself to improve your own gameplay. I think applying his techniques to standard play is the only way for lower level players (myself definately included) to understand the game and improve.
If you truely care about the questions you asked, revert to his original podcast on builds and how he gauged when to get gaurdians ZvT on gaia. He fully equiped you with the tools to figure out all of the strategic questions, as far as some of the planning , needless to say I'm curious.
If he doesn't respond I'll post some of the selected advice I've gotten from ret/lzgamer/machine on zerg goals/planning.
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I suppose a simpler way to phrase my question would be: "How should I reconcile my goal of practicing one style with the fact that my opponent might force me away from my desired path?" His example was early expand corsair style PvZ, but the protoss can do this more or less independently of what zerg is doing. (excepting a 4-6 pool) On the other hand, as a zerg, I feel that I have to play a completely different game against 2 gate than FE corsair.
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On June 06 2009 03:31 threepool wrote:
I suppose a simpler way to phrase my question would be: "How should I reconcile my goal of practicing one style with the fact that my opponent might force me away from my desired path?" His example was early expand corsair style PvZ, but the protoss can do this more or less independently of what zerg is doing. (excepting a 4-6 pool) On the other hand, as a zerg, I feel that I have to play a completely different game against 2 gate than FE corsair.
TBH when toss goes for any type of 1 gate or 2 gate play, you don't need 5 hats and 35-40 drones, you can saturate 2 bases with 3 hat and go lair/den speedhydra/speedovie-then lurker-then range then expo + evo+spire, and be in the exact same midgame situations with even a greater advanatage then regular.
Then you can add 2 move evos and a fifth hat and go hive lurker/ling/hydra or stay lair and go lurkercontain and(or) drop. The sitations will transpose completely.
and by doing what I said, you more or less achieve the exact same thing as versus an fe toss in a different route.
He covered all of this in his recent guide on builds. Versus 1gate and 2gate , you must figure out the order you need the different techs, rather then getting everything at once with a 5 hat play.
You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think.
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Thanks for the help, I'll try to keep your example in mind.
On June 06 2009 03:41 AttackZerg wrote:You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think.
I'm trying, believe me. But there are situations where the midgame does not necessarily transpose; terran mech, for example. (which Day[9] referred to as "a completely different matchup" from normal TvZ)
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On June 06 2009 03:52 threepool wrote:Thanks for the help, I'll try to keep your example in mind. Show nested quote +On June 06 2009 03:41 AttackZerg wrote:You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think. I'm trying, believe me. But there are situations where the midgame does not necessarily transpose; terran mech, for example. (which Day[9] referred to as "a completely different matchup" from normal TvZ)
We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset.
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On June 06 2009 05:37 AttackZerg wrote:
We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset.
OK, thanks for answering all my n00b questions.
Try to keep in mind that those of us without years of experience can't see certain details like this at a glance. It would help to hear some of the reasoning as to why you consider ZvP to have a single direction, while ZvT does not–might help get some of your good advice through my thick skull.
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On June 06 2009 09:41 threepool wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2009 05:37 AttackZerg wrote:
We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset. OK, thanks for answering all my n00b questions. Try to keep in mind that those of us without years of experience can't see certain details like this at a glance. It would help to hear some of the reasoning as to why you consider ZvP to have a single direction, while ZvT does not–might help get some of your good advice through my thick skull.
Well no matter what type of game you are playing against protoss you will inevitably be dealing with the same few types of gameplay. Hydralisks and zerglings work against all of them earlygame and earlymidgame. This includes 1gate -> zealot legs, 1 gate goon,reaver,1gate sair/dt , 1 gate sair/reaver, 2gate -> fe -> 2 gate tech. The only difference between these and FE toss is that you encounter masses of units of a specific type, ala , 4 gate speedzealots or 1 gate sair/dt->templar/cannons earlier in the game, so once you respond to that earlygame tech protoss must (unless their 'timing attack' succeeds) settle into a macro mode, which translates into a normal macro midgame,where muta switches, lurkers,masshydralisks ect can all be viable just like 5 hat vs fe type games.
Now against terran you have many different types of tech openings. 1rax gas -> 3rax sunken bust(on 1 base) 1raxgas->double factory -> speedvulture runby or 2 rax tank push or 1factory/starport or two port wraith. Then you have all the fast expo variants of those same builds. Then you have bionic which (aside from heavy vulture harrass or wraiths) can have certain timing windows to kill zerg (premuta-prelurker-pre-defiler). Then you have mech which has slower timing attacks (normally) but is alot more (1 punch knockout), while most bionic play after FE isn't dead after 1 push.
ZvT does transpose just like zvp but in 2 different ways. 1 the lurker is your most valueable unit and the other hydralisks and mutalisks are. I am writing this quickly and don't have time to go back and revise everything but I hope you understand that the dynamics of terran and protoss are very different and as zerg they demand very different thinking. Thinking wise, zvp is much easier.
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On June 06 2009 01:53 AttackZerg wrote:
If he doesn't respond I'll post some of the selected advice I've gotten from ret/lzgamer/machine on zerg goals/planning. Dude, post that no matter what happens! I'd definitely like to hear it.
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In the StoppingMech podcast he mentioned 2 games for proleagues of how good is mech... Can someone post link of that 2 games please?
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More podcasts please! I loved all of these and I'm looking forward to hopefully another Zerg focused cast 
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On June 06 2009 22:04 rAnDoMZerg wrote:
In the StoppingMech podcast he mentioned 2 games for proleagues of how good is mech... Can someone post link of that 2 games please?
That podcast had its own thread. motbob posted the videos there.
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P.S , sean if you disagree with anything I say, please please post it. Everything I say is based off of my experience in conversation,resources, study and play I would love to know how much of what I say you agree with!
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On June 07 2009 13:23 threepool wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2009 22:04 rAnDoMZerg wrote:
In the StoppingMech podcast he mentioned 2 games for proleagues of how good is mech... Can someone post link of that 2 games please? That podcast had its own thread. motbob posted the videos there.
Thanks ^^
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btw, i'm pretty sure it should be Episode 8 (without intros) or Episode 10 (with intros), not 9 :p
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On June 07 2009 21:51 Hundredth wrote:
btw, i'm pretty sure it should be Episode 8 (without intros) or Episode 10 (with intros), not 9 :p
THIS IS MY BIRTHDAY PARTY
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On June 05 2009 12:01 threepool wrote:
OK, so I'm trying out this advice, and I have some questions.
I'm working on 5 hatch hydra PvZ on blue storm. I'm starting to wonder if this is a) too specific, or b) not specific enough.
a) Of course, it is not possible to play 5 hatch hydra every single game, it's totally inappropriate if he 2 gates, or does FE into speedzealots for example. So I seem to need at least 3 fairly distinct game plans.
right on the money. this is EXACTLY how you should be thinking about it. for me, my 3 big categories are A) fast gas, B) 2 gate, C) early expand. I further break those down by A1) sair first A2) reaver first A3) templar/legspeed etc etc. If you're having trouble, just make the categories bigger (like A) 1 base, B) 2 base, A1) aggressive early A2) passive early)
b) You mentioned that 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra is good at forcing your fast expanding opponent into corsair play. Would that make this build appropriate for someone who wants to practice 5 hatch hydra? It would in theory reduce my options... but it wouldn't really, I'd still need to know how to handle the situation if he ignored my early lair and went for a ground push.
yeah i think 3 hatch into 5 hatch hydra is easier. opening w/ 2 hatch requires a huge comfort managing your larvae properly, which is still a pain for me after 12 years of zerging
Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post (I know you're encouraging us to think for ourselves) but I feel a little stuck when I sit down to work on one specific thing, as you suggest, and only get 1 game out of 8 in which I actually get to build 5 hatcheries and make hydralisks. (half of those were proxies, but never mind) Since you promise excellent results, I want to make sure I'm following your advice correctly.
you're asking ALL the right questions in the right fashion too. keep trying to give your own answers and test things out!!! the #1 important thing i would suggest is to boost your macro a bunch. macro is the MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT FOR STRONG GAMEPLAY AND FOR LEARNING. in other words, you could have thought up the "right solution," had shitty macro, and then have incorrectly learned that the "right solution" was wrong. for instance, 5hatch hydra is clearly a solid build, as its one of the standard plays for pros these days. however, the first time someone w/ bad macro tries it, he might say "i die before i get my 5 hatches up, this build is terrible!! anyone who gets to the mid-game is just lucky they didn't die!" etc etc
best of luck to you sir!
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EPT
