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United States7166 Posts
On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea
On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding!
why is there insulting going on in this thread
doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this
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Hi
I didnt read the 8 pages(i read all the main topic though) but :
I'm pretty noob but what if the terran proxies the zerg, the zerg doesnt know he proxied and the terran kills the spire that has only 1/3 of her HP xD ? (read the italic part again)
But this is very interesting, but I assume that will be only useful on B/A matches... Not in D/D+ like me obviously o_o !
HF~~
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On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this
Agreed.
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I think less people got the spire timing down against two hatch, hence it should be easier to get away with it if you're doing a two hatch. Though you have to do it the macro way with a quick third instead of an early speedling break.
Vincent's making a pretty good point, don't just brush it off. Most good terrans know their timings anyway, which makes it more useful at lower level. However, lower level zergs are less likely to benefit from the advantage as their muta micro is worse.
Also, very many zvt builds requires you to have your group of lings out in the field, all the time, which efficiently prevents you from redtoothing. If you don't use ling builds that no problem of course.
Lastly I'd like to say that this is probably the coolest original idea I've ever read about in the strategy forum, even if it'll rarely work.
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On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed.
Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history
also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I'm going to start calling this move The Idra out of spite
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I personally think it's a great idea (there's a tag [I] next to the title, it's not like we should all use it). It's been said to have a low risk/medium reward, which is true. Even if they scan your spire next to your hatchery, you can keep making units from your main while saving larva from your other hatches. You can also hotkey your zerglings and click s if you hear him scan. As long as there aren't too many lings next to the spire it wouldn't be suspicious.
There are all kinds of different ways you can try to implement this tactic in practice, and this thread is only providing us with the general idea. It's up to each person to decide if they want to use it or not.
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Anything that adds an element of uncertainty to your timing, especially when it's practically for free, is a good thing. It's more something that benefits the zerg race as a whole. If this becomes more popular, then when terrans DO scout a late spire, he might think you're faking him out and build turrets before he needs to.
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On March 05 2009 04:39 redtooth wrote:
to vincent: lol don't try to play off the "yeah I said 40 seconds because the muta's will be flying to the base duh" crap. we know you are stupid, just don't make yourself look stupider. maybe we'll heed your professional advice at that point.
I dont understand why you are starting to insult me now but nvm, you can't hurt me... anyway as I said: a good terran with a good timing always scans when spire is done or mutas are morphing from eggs 'cause he needs only few seconds for builds turrets... this strategy will never works and zerglings are important for other things (harrass/scout) instead of attack the spire... for example if you don't use zlings for scout costantly the terran army he can easily walks on you with the A-Yu-Mi strategy... sorry but you can just say good bye to your fame and glory's dreams
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On March 05 2009 02:15 Lapynou wrote:
Hi
I didnt read the 8 pages(i read all the main topic though) but :
I'm pretty noob but what if the terran proxies the zerg, the zerg doesnt know he proxied and the terran kills the spire that has only 1/3 of her HP xD ? (read the italic part again)
But this is very interesting, but I assume that will be only useful on B/A matches... Not in D/D+ like me obviously o_o !
HF~~
The only problem is, why would he proxy and wait until the spire is up to attack?
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On March 05 2009 06:07 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy.  Man I was really joking about being in SC history. As cool as SC is, it's not like I can go up to anyone I know in real life and go "Do you know redtoothing? I invented it!" And as for being defensive, it's natural I'm going to defend this technique (and myself in the process) because I created it. I mean it's my brainchild after all and I would love for it to succeed whether I get credited in the end or not. I guess I took the whole "redtoothing" thing a step too far (was trying to keep the idea fun in the process) but I honestly did get frustrated when people just continually bash the idea without having tried it, using arguments that were mentioned a million times before. They seemed more intent on shutting down the idea than considering it (the guy who said something about the progress bar being a prime example, Vincent and his sexy timings another). Put yourself in my situation, I'm sure you would have felt similar even if it wasn't as extreme as I felt it. So please try to understand. Your being overly defensive and snapping at people too much...
Your not fully considering all the objections, and you MADE this idea without trying it first so don't get mad at those who bash it without trying it.
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mmhmm
everybody likes bashing new idea for kicks on forums everywhere.
just wait it out and if a pro tries it and wins everybody will shut up.
i think it's a pretty good idea until it's been seen once or twice. because Terran's will just start putting down turrets when they see the spire at anywhere above 150 since no zerg will take its hp any lower.
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Someone should make a translation to Korean and post it to Fomos. The way that other guides have been translated the other way around ^_^. Get the idea out there for pro-gamers (and korean crazy ass good ones) to play with. I am eagerly awaiting WL VOD's where (fake) fake delayed spires are used (or any other redtoothing strategies).
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Netherlands6142 Posts
No. Why don't they do that now? Because they want to put them up as late as possible. So you're not gonna oppsite-of-delay (can't think of the word) the turrets because he might be redtoothing since he might not be. It will be confusing still.
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Tried this three times vs different opponents. It didn't turn out effective for me in all 3 games. I got scanned in the act twice, and one game an scv scouted my spire when I just put it up and it never got scanned anymore after that.
Blocking off any scv's from scouting your base is crucial. I also think the odds that you'll be scanned while 'delaying' your spire are bigger than your opponent actually scanning when your lings are done with the job. Next to that I found myself being scared of destroying my spire, which made me focus on it so much that my eco got slightly 'hurt' from it.
Personally I don't think it's really worth it and won't be trying this again. Would be great to see someone using this effectively.
A+ class theory crafting tho 
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As long as this is the fake delayed spire thread, I'll bring up the Lonely Fake Delayed Spire build (if it doesn't exist already).
It only works on maps with neutral creep like Colosseum. Pretty straightforward; works best at non-diagonal spawns. Normal lair timing, then start your proxy spire at the diagonal-from-terran base (the lonely spire!). When it's 40-60% done or so, you start your fake (2nd) spire at an easily scannable location in your main. When the proxy spire finishes, you cancel your fake spire and make your mutas. In this build, you not only have the advantage of the spire appearing correctly in the build animation (if the terran knows the stages), but you have him confused if he scans before you started the 2nd spire, perhaps wasting another scan trying to find it. You also have the great disadvantage of losing your proxy spire if he scouts it for some reason. At that point the build becomes the Lonely fake fake delayed spire build, since your 2nd spire becomes your actual, delayed spire!
There is no risk, however, of your opponent scanning lings attacking your spire or noticing the health bar doesn't match the build animation. There is the added drawback of the 2nd spire drone not mining for a minute, plus the 25% lost in canceling it. You will also eventually lose your spire unless you expand there next with lurkers and maintain map control. Should work at D/D+ level when they don't have the timings down, and assume you don't either, but also for some reason they don't play super safe and make turrets 2 minutes early.
Another possible addition is to make a hydra den in your main so they at least scan something in the time in between lair completes and 2nd spire begins morphing. Making your natural hatch your lair might help offset the need for this by possibly hiding your lair timing.
I should also note that I have no idea how different zvt builds are on Colosseum, so this might be even more useless than it at first glance appears.
+ Show Spoiler +I just wanted to post what I thought this thread would be about. If anyone actually tries this strat, I of course take full credit for your loss/win
OH! If you want to REALLY confuse them, cancel the 2nd spire if you see them scan it, then type something like "shit!" He'll think you really messed up, and won't make any turrets at all!
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Sorry LonelyMargarita, but that's just horrible  It'd be a waste of your precious gas & minerals.
Also, this 'trick' already exists by building a den & spire, confusing your opponent whether you're going mutas or lurks.
There's no reason to ever build 2 spires, except if you want to dual grade your mutas. I doubt that's actually viable in a serious game though.
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EPT
