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Before, like most people I think I used to exclusively use hold position for my muta micro because its easy to reach and doesn't require that extra click to confirm the order.
Before, like most people I think I used to exclusively use hold position for my muta micro because its easy to reach and doesn't require that extra click to confirm the order.
Lately however I've been finding patrol to be much better and more flexible than hold because I've picked up that there is a slight delay between the move component of patrol and the actual glaive attack. What I've found, is that within a small arc your mutas turn and then fire with just one click. This greatly reduces the accuracy needed to hit things especially when there's lag. try it in single player and you'll see the split second delay.
here's a possible way of improving fly-bys over mineral lines. it works really well on medusa mains if the terran built turrets on his min line instead of the surrounding high ground. here you can fly in along a parallel to the minerals, turn towards and snag an scv and get out in just two actions, which would make it a alot easier to time as wouldn't have to be constantly spamming right-click just to keep them together.
........................| <-mutas come from here
muta group->....m
......................... \
..............................;s
.............................;s..p <- SCVs (p-click here)
................................ ;..s
; = minerals
..........................m...; x <-dead SCV
........................./ ...;s...s
.move away->..../.........;s
try it and see what you think. I used to find it hard to move my mouse to right click away, but if you H then right click too fast the mutas dont attack and because of this I find having to move the mouse actually more helpful than otherwise.
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I'm not understanding what you're talking about. There are a number of issues with this, and I will begin here:
1) From what I understand you are saying to P click to where the SCV line is, but when you do this you will have a problem. From where the Mutalisks come in to that line, any and all enemy buildings and units will become the target, so that doesn't work.
2) Now unless you mean get your mutalisks into the mineral line, and THEN patrol the line, okay I can understand that, but typically wouldn't the turrets be somewhere in this line? You might land a shot or two on the SCV, but since they are patrolling the second that turret fires they will all go for the turret and ignore the SCV's. (If there are marines they will target them)
3) You say this saves clicks, but I'm pretty sure your math is wrong. Basically to do what you have to do you must first move the mutas into the base (1), hit the P button (2), left click where you want to patrol (3), and then move out (4). This is technically 2 right clicks, 1 left click, and one keyboard key. Now I'm not a Zerg expert but I'm assuming that this is how you muta harass. You will move to the mineral line (1), right click on the SCV you want to target (2), and then move out (3). This is technically three right clicks. To me this seems easier. And why hold position if there are missile turrets in the area? I checked just to make sure but holding position with turrets or cannons that are firing out of the glauve worm range stops the mutalisks from attacking all together. I don't see why you would do that.
And I tried patrol moving over buildings and units to see if it was quicker than doing three right clicks, and to be honest I think the latter is a lot faster and the mutalisks fire more effectively.
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I use hold because "h" is closer to the "a" button.
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patrols alot better than hold position if you're going down over ridges I find or harrassing scvs. It's also better if you're lagging a little. Holds better if you've got 9+ mutas and are engaging mnm.
It does have a different timing though so you need to get used to it.
note to people saying it's bad. Zero uses it. thats why he can kill archons so easily.
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Calgary25990 Posts
Please use paint. I can't follow your logic with ascii drawings.
Hold is better in all situations except when you are fleeing because it stops the Mutalisks from flying into danger. I can't comment on your lag situations because I don't play in lag or BNet latency anymore.
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yeah a paint or rep would be needed here. honestly have no idea whats happening there.
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As chill said, patrol is better only when you are fleeing from a big mass of mnm and theres like a single one separated and close to your mutas, since turning manually takes too long and you may get hurt, but if there arent many marines, turning manually is better because using patrol will not make all of your mutas turn at once and they will spread.
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I like using patrol like with muta vs scourge micro, clicking right in front of my mutas. For example when I'm flying away I can patrol behind the minline without having to turn around, or for example in ZvP patrol while flying my mutas above zealots to keep moving in one direction and not having to do the back and forth motion of the hold position. Patrol is basically useful if you want to attack your sides / back while still moving to the same direction the whole time.
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As echoed by everyone else, patrol is for running away, and hold position is for direct engagement.
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On February 23 2009 23:51 Piy wrote:
patrols alot better than hold position if you're going down over ridges I find or harrassing scvs. It's also better if you're lagging a little. Holds better if you've got 9+ mutas and are engaging mnm.
It does have a different timing though so you need to get used to it.
note to people saying it's bad. Zero uses it. thats why he can kill archons so easily.
I think that is more like the muta vs scourge thing. Dont think he uses it vs T thou?
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Patrol is actually better to use against archons over a cliff or beyond an edge or something, as you are able to stop your mutas and attack the archon, but your mutas will be just out of the archon's attack range if you do it properly.
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koreasilver that is 100% true.
Although not if archon is already within muta range thou since the delay of stop gives him enough time to enter and fire before you can move.
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I think my main point is missed a little bit, so i'l try to elaborate. When you use hold, for all your mutas to attack they have to be facing the target exactly. With patrol, the delay between turning towards the target and firing gives you a degree of freedom in the direction they're facing and how well stacked they are.
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I tested it out, and I can understand what you are saying.
However, this would be much better for trying to muta micro on bnet lag. The delay is pretty annoying b/c if you have to muta micro in a tight position (let's say you need to defend your third base and he is streaming marines too them), and need to make instant decisions(i.e. deciding when to attack instantaneously), it's really hard if you have to take into the account the delay with patrol.
Interesting, but not good vs marines I would say. I didn't know though that patrol is better vs archons so I will test that out (lol like I will ever use that in a game anyway, but still).
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I think he means something like that, where you hit patrol and click on top or right in front of the mutas?
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It isn't better vs archons. There are just situations were is reduces muta vs archon to simple hiting p and clicking on your stacked mutas.
Pro gamers would only ever need to use it vs archon if they were running away at the same time
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vs straggling marines, I find it better because you can almost guarantee that rine (if you target it specifically) will die, even if its moving. with hold its easy to miss lone moving targets because you need to time when you hit H to when your mutas will be lined up correctly whereas with patrol you can get away with just facing in the general direction and even a bit unstacked.
I'm pretty sure though that the delay (lag aside) between hitting H and the mutas attack is the same as with patrol, though I would wanna test this myself (which I cant do now).
For me, the only time hold is really better is when I engage a clump of marines but this is seldom because I only do it when I know I will own the group without losing too many mutas and have surplus lings/minerals or when the rines are plagued (rare for me ever).
edit: I hit patrol and click the direction of the units I want to attack, like a quick, one-attack a-move, or I hit the rine/scv/ht itself which is more accurate but you dont get a spread.
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umm if you know how to use hold position, you can angle your mutas to target without ever having to manually target anything. Patrol is less effective and is only good in certain situations.
Having mutas in large numbers when you have plague means your doing something wrong.
If you seldom engage marines when they are moving out you are missing the entire idea of mutas which are to harrass/delay terran while you do other things. Picking off marines and wasting medic energy is so important zvt that it is often game changing.
If you time hiting H with your mutas range and refresh timing they fire instantly, same with patrol.... how do you not know this?
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I only ever get a spread with H when I angle my mutas to get a spread. I control that ...
The best thing about Patrol is instant turn around spread kills versus marines =(
Check youtube there has to be a vod explain how to micro mutas ....
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Should we still be right clicking or a-moving to take out individual targets? I find this more effective than hold position if I just want to snipe one thing (like a medic, turret, etc.) rather than using hold position and having my mutas target a bunch of different stuff or fly past my target to acquire a different one.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 24 2009 22:00 Ingenol wrote:
Should we still be right clicking or a-moving to take out individual targets? I find this more effective than hold position if I just want to snipe one thing (like a medic, turret, etc.) rather than using hold position and having my mutas target a bunch of different stuff or fly past my target to acquire a different one.
It's indifferent. Both end in disaster if you misclick.
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On February 24 2009 18:47 AttackZerg wrote:
I only ever get a spread with H when I angle my mutas to get a spread. I control that ...
What do you do differently for spread/no spread?
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On February 25 2009 04:46 Dreadwave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2009 18:47 AttackZerg wrote:
I only ever get a spread with H when I angle my mutas to get a spread. I control that ... What do you do differently for spread/no spread?
If all of the mutas are stacked perfectly and you use Hold-position-fire they will target a single marine if it is the closest/only target. If instead of angling to pick off 1 marine, there are 3, all the same distance, directly in front of you, then you need to do two back and forth hold-fire shots anyway to get them all, and normally if you do the micro two times in a row the odds are one of them will be split attack on 2 or 3 of them, assuming all are withinrange. Multi-kills can only happen if you allow 2-3 units to enter mutas range at once (not always a good thing)
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Patrol provides a larger range so if you misclick, it won't be as bad, but it doesn't respond as well as attack or focus fire. Patrol is best when you're running away, as many have already said.
Hold is my favorite, unless I want to pick off specific units, such as medics, SCVs, or tanks.
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On February 25 2009 00:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2009 22:00 Ingenol wrote:
Should we still be right clicking or a-moving to take out individual targets? I find this more effective than hold position if I just want to snipe one thing (like a medic, turret, etc.) rather than using hold position and having my mutas target a bunch of different stuff or fly past my target to acquire a different one. It's indifferent. Both end in disaster if you misclick.
Right, I just meant use one of the two instead of hold position.
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Omg i have been using patrol only xD. Should i use hold position if i am hunting mutas with mutas too?
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On February 25 2009 04:54 AttackZerg wrote:If all of the mutas are stacked perfectly and you use Hold-position-fire they will target a single marine if it is the closest/only target. If instead of angling to pick off 1 marine, there are 3, all the same distance, directly in front of you, then you need to do two back and forth hold-fire shots anyway to get them all, and normally if you do the micro two times in a row the odds are one of them will be split attack on 2 or 3 of them, assuming all are withinrange. Multi-kills can only happen if you allow 2-3 units to enter mutas range at once (not always a good thing)
That makes perfect sense, they spread when there are multiple targets in range. This also means that if you get a spread when you attack marines that are moving in a line towards you, you were too close and not using the muta's maximum range. I didn't expect it to be that simple actually.
Thanks for explaining, this should help reduce unwanted spreadshots.
Edit: I just remembered that I've been messing around with Wraiths lately and their longer attackrange (5 vs 3 for mutas, scouts have 4) means that you get a lot of spreadshots if you are not used to the extra range. I didn't realise it worked like that until just now. 
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hmm pros use H, so H is better o0
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On February 25 2009 05:58 Teejing wrote:
Omg i have been using patrol only xD. Should i use hold position if i am hunting mutas with mutas too?
If you are dodge or not in a direct fight yes you can do hit an runs depending on the range .. but spreading your damage in muta vs muta is an auto loss .. so be carefull
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On February 25 2009 11:17 Red.Cloud wrote:
hmm pros use H, so H is better o0
No, you can clearly see progamers focus attacking when they attack turrets. You can clearly see progamers using patrol in muta/scourge battles.
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I think he means in terms of the general attacking mechanic/techinic that the op was questioning...
I don't think anybody doesn't know about focusing turetts/cannons/temps/medic or muta vs scourge  ....
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attackzerg is right
also attacking turrents with just H works, really well atcualy, but yes vs scourge and hitting certian units u need to click or use other methods
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when i fight scourage with mutas should i use"h"? my muta movement is good, no problem dancing with scourage all day long, but my mutas never shoot when i move them infront of scourage and press "h".
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If you are confident in your reaction times then anytime you see scourge comming towards you and your at full speed you can fly towards them and H fire -> run away as a way of sniping them. You should not be using H any other time, search the forums for proper scourge micro. There are two (kind of three) ways to do it and a great practice map.
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Thanks a lot for the advice, but why do you say i should not use "h" any other time?
edit: WoW, the muta micro map is sick, thx again
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because you can't use H when running away from scourge.
Ok here is a situation to look at.
You have 6 muta you are facing what you think is 3 or 4 muta (sometimes its hard to tell) but there are also 4 scourge already cloned onto your mutalisks.
4 mutas do 10 damage to 1 muta, so 40 damage per 4 hits, so they need to fire 3 volleys of guave worms in order to kill 1 mutalisk, but 1 scourge does nearly that damage in 1 hit, so you can't dance with hold position micro since you will be unable to dodge the scourge, which are the real threat, while if you are in that same situation running + patrol tricks+angles you can kill all 4 scourge without taking a hit, or even if you fuck up just taking 1 hit, so your still at 5 muta + 1 damaged. Now while you are fleeing from the scourge the mutas are still taking shots at you, so maybe you took 2 rounds (80 damage) from those 4 muta + 110 damage to 1 muta from scourge (assuming they weren't able to target the scourged muta and did damage to another). Now you are facing 4 mutas with 4 healthy mutas and 2 damaged. You still win that fight
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I'm a zerg player in vanilla starcraft. How do you kill marines with mutas? How do you stack the mutas on top of each other and then harass the marines? I've seen people do it, I've tried it, but I seem to have know idea how to do it.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
You group your mutalisks with an overlord on the other side of the map, or with a larva (overlord is better as larvae get used up). Because of "magic boxes", read this thread, your mutalisks will clump together.
My mutalisk micro needs a lot of work, I can't seem to get the range that I've seen some pro players get, but even a bit of latency will make muta micro a lot harder.
<e> Why are you playing vanilla starcraft?
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The best way to improve your muta micro is the muta micro umses. It really helps a lot.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/481/patrol.png)
