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On March 12 2009 03:18 EniraM(CA) wrote:
Stylish, first of all thanks for doing all this. Really helpful.
My question is what do you do vs a protoss who nexus before gateway? What is the best option to punish him for fast expanding? I know it's a little broad because maps are different and such. But just some general tips vs fast protoss expand would be really nice.
ty
Stylish and Petzergling answer this question on page 29 of this thread.
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Quote from 9min push BO:
This thread will cause much trouble for the zerg player.
YAY!
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Stylish,
Are you ever going to do TvT VODs? I have the most difficulty with that match-up over others.
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DoctorHelvetica yes i dont know when but I'll do some. Im really bored with TvT though so i don't know when i will feel for it but hopefully atleast 1 bo this weekend.
Eniram(ca) its true as tjeckleberg said. Also stick around for the new stronger FD push that im going to show you next. Its really good vs 14nex.
Ok so the difference between "artosis strat", "my strat" and "petzerglings strat" for those that have asked.
Artosis strategy is really solid. Its also pretty safe. The main issue with this strategy is that you get 2 suplys before the CC (at 19) academy before second barrack and then you tech towards vessel once you have 3 barracks.
You stop marineproduction for a little while on 6 marines to be able to afford building 2barracks and an ebay at the perfect timing.
You start building medics and firebats once the academy is finnished.
Your tech will be 40 seconds after the 9min Push but you will be able to preassure the opponents third or natural.
9minpush vs artosis strat: (i'll call them that even if we are not the inventors to make it easier)
With artosis strategy you will have CC on 19 which is slightly slower (9minpush at 18)but slightly safer(because 2 marines instead of 1 when place CC), this howerver is no big issue.
A major difference is that you will stop production at 6 marines to afford constant scv production and the arcitecture needed for this build.
At 5 minutes you will have 6 marines and be pretty vulnurable to speedlings.
(If you have good scoutingskills and are able to stay alive very long this sometimes is not a problem coz you can make more marines if you see him massing lings, but most of the time he will be able to kill your scv before you know if there is going to be some sort of early attack.)
with the 9minpush you will have 11 marines at 5 minutes for the same lingrush.
(this is very good on iccup for example when people usually try something like that, however if the zerg infact doesn't rush you, then its not ideal. Since the scv dies before im able to scout this usually i go with the safer strat and 11 marines is much better than 6. However if im actually scouting that he cannot be doing any rush like this then i can also stop marineproduction and tech faster, its good to know a build, but when you know it in and out you have to know how to adjust aswell.)
At 6 minutes you will be able to have 10marines 2 bats and 2 medics with artosis strat. This is when you should move towards zergs natural or his third expansion (if he has one, usually doesn't so push towards natural to make him make sunkens). With the 9min Push you will have 11 marines and 2 medics at this point.
(Now here its obviously better with 2medics and 2firebats. You will be able to put preassure on the zergs natural. You may ofcourse move out with 11rines + 2medics and get the same effect most of the times but its abit more risky. So in this case artosis strat is better imo.)
Your factory will start making at about 6:10 with artosis strat and 5:30 with the 9min push.
(This is obviously in favour for the 9min push. Your vessel will be out sooner, both strats have 3 tanks by then and you can get 40 seconds faster 2-1 upgrades.)
Artosis strategy will let you have enough units in the early midgame to be able to take out zergs third sometimes. The 9min push will not alow this usually because you are macroing from 2 barracks and not 3 as in artosis strategy.
(Its ofcourse very good to be able to take his third out and still be able to defend vs mutalisks, or cause him to waste his mutalisks to try to kill your units. If he has very good mutalisk harass this can sometimes be risky specially when moving up a ramp to kill an expansion.)
You move out with 1 vessel 3tanks +units at 9minutes and 40 seconds with artosis startegy.
You move out with 1 vessel 3tanks +units at 9minutes with the 9min Push.
(This is obviously better for the 9min push, but know that with artosis strategy the zerg might have lost his third, and usually your units that killed it will be dead aswell. When you move out to take it he can grab his opportunity to make more damage with his mutalisks while many units are out of town. So he can sometimes make you pay when you make him pay. Specially if he has produced lings and mutalisks for a "backstab".
With the 9min push you will be safe from this and let the zerg get his eco going, but move out in time for it not to be effective. And I like that.)
So in general the major differences with these strategies are:
Artosis strategy will make you more powerful in the early midgame, but tech slower towards vessel.
The 9min push will make you abit safer from mutalisks (since you stay at home with units) and tech up faster but you will let the zerg get his third up with ease.
The 9minpush is stronger in lategame because faster 2-1 upgrades and more vessels/tanks for lategame, but also the zerg will be stronger if he doesn't take alot of damage with the push since he gets his third up.
In my oppinion: A stronger terran armys power increases exponentially if zerg has no swarm. This is better for the 9minpush, you have bigger army zerg has bigger army will benefit you rather than smaller army vs smaller army.
The strength of the 9min push is to attack just in time for the zergs third to not provide enough economyboost and drop his main at the same time with dmatrix drop. This is usually a big problem for the zergs. You can also decide to use that dropship to drop his third, but i like the dmatrix thing to make him waste scourges and take out important buildings.
With the 9min Push you have the possibility to scan right before you move out, and if you see him powering you can wait for second vessel, scan again and if you see still no hive wait for 2-1 and move out. You should do the same with artosis strategy but the same moves will be delayed with 40 seconds. Also the zergs eco is damaged (IF you are successful with the early preassure, this is not certain) so the delay with 40 seconds is not as big as it seems when the zerg doesnt hive.
I play the 9min Push because it fucks up the zerg timings and is easier to execute. You don't have to focus so much on multitask early game and you have only 2 scvs building things (1 for suply 1 for tech) which gives you greater economy. Its also safer vs a mutalisk/ling backstab in the early midgame.
Both strategies are good and i suggest that you learn both of them if you want to play standard vs same opponent over and over again to mix things up.
Now to move on to petzerglings strategy (i'll call it his strat to make it easier).
The big difference here is that he places 1 suply before CC instead of 2. This will make your economy greater, and you are able to tech to vessel on 3 barracks instead of two and only lose 5-10 seconds on your factory timing.
This is better in every way than the 9min push if you scout him on the first try, but too risky if you don't. I am going to make a VOD of how to execute a build like this because it is indeed better on a two player map. As you've noticed I've shown the 9minpush on 4playermaps (also good for 3playermaps) but not on 2playermaps. Thats because 1suply-> exp is stronger in all ways than 2suply expansion.
However i suggest that you use the 9min push as your standard strategy anyway, because if you want to play one strategy over and over again to improve your mechanics and gamesense its not good to switch things up too much and the 1suply-exp really only works on a 2player map on a regular basis
Thats my thought on these matters, if anyone else has another oppinion please explain why and i'll try to answer to that.
edit* I have not read through petzerglings strategy that careful, so all this thinking is if he posted the correct way to execute such a build. But im fairly certain by taking a brief look at it that its solid.
In the end, ofcourse its better to adjust between these three builds and choose the best one for every game, but this only if you are already a good player. For the lesser player i suggest not to mix things up so much to improve mechanics faster and get used to a build.
All builds are precise and good. Only that artosis build hasn't the full buildorder written out.
Also i guess i chose the 9minpush because of my bias towards flash
I hope you find this helpful thanks!
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
holy shit epic post. Thanks :D
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Few questions
1. can you post the build order for the 2 hatch counter.
2. Do you always fallow your Main 9min standard build, until you scout a variation in the zergs play. Like lets say you see a 2 hatch mutas. Do you play on ur 9min bo, then switch to the "2 hatch counter", becuase you dont know from the start he is going 2 hatch.
3. What is the sign of a 2 hatch muta, and 3 hatch mutas. is the 3 hatch muta = 3 hatches before the zerg gets a gas?? and whats the bo for a zerg doing a 2 hatch muta ? Is it 2 hatch gas or 1 hatch gas hatch?
4. On your 9min standard bo, Why is ur Depot at 16? wont that create a supply block, since scv and marine production will be close. Also Is there a reason you did not apply pressure to the zerg before he got mutas( to make him put a few more sunks down, which you could of eaisly done)
5. On your 2 hatch counter play vod, i noticed ur eco was at like 600 a long time, and you didnt put a fac on for a while. Is this just the bo of it or like just a mess up?
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Stylish, I was playing my buddy last night (TvP) and tried to execute your 5-fact push BO (I've been practicing it the last couple days). Everything was going great until I scouted him and saw 3 gates going up and no expo.
It was on colloseum, so the nat is pretty safe. Plus, I figured he was doing some goon pressure build (we're both really bad, and he's not very confident in his mid/late game). So instead of the FD, I skipped on building more than 2 marines to get my CC up faster and siege mode instead of mines.
Because I would have my expo up much faster than him, I figured all I had to do was survive his rush and I would win. I ended up building a 6th fact and taking my 3rd, maxing at 15 min and moving out. Was this the proper play? I feel like I should be able to punish the protoss for such an aggressive strat earlier in the game. After watching the rep, it was obvious I could've killed him much earlier than when I finally moved out. But that was because his macro was poor and his build wasn't optimized. (He put down the 3 gates and only pumped a round or so before expanding. Seems like he wasted a ton of minerals on gates he didn't use).
I eventually won the game, but I was wondering how I should adapt the 5 fact build if the toss does a 1-base rush where he cuts probes to get an absurd number of units really quickly. I'm at a low enough level that, if they execute it well, it's pretty rough.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Well, if you scout P going 3 gate, block off your nat with ebay & rax, throw down a turret and put 2 tanks above your ramp with turret there as well. Get ready to pull scvs when P moves in to repair your ebay/rax wall-in. Make sure your rines are well positioned to snipe the shuttle when it flies in. If you don't see him move in for a while, you're massively ahead so take advantage of your lead by doing a timing push.
I think in that situation, 6 fac push seems logical but maybe Stylish has a different opinion on that. There is definitely no need to stay in your base for that long since he failed an early game rush. Alternatively, if there's a 3rd nearby, you can safely take it while increasing your advantage even further.
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I think you're right about that, infinity. I remember something in the TvP Tips VOD where if he makes a lot of static defenses and expands a lot, then you make a 4 fact push early, to punish him with siege 'cause he has little units. But if he does the flip side of that and makes tons and tons of units, then you turtle a bit, hold your push to a 6 fact push, because a 200/200 terran army will crush a 200/200 toss army as long as you don't utterly fuck up your push.
I think that is what Stylish said about it.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Once you successfully defend the 3 gate all-in. Scouting will play a key role here. Check if he's taking 2 more expos quickly to catch back up in economy. In that case, you can do a 3 fac push. If he's staying on 2 bases, do a 6 fac push. Get double armory upgrades and play for the late game. With superior economy and upgrades, you're setting yourself up nicely to auto-win the game. 3 gate is really simple to deal with once you defend that one attack. Get some vults, plant some mines outside of your base to delay his push and hug your tanks to defend against zeals. If you're feeling up for the challenge, sneak 2 vults around and try to score some probe kills while he's busy attacking you.
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I think someone asked this before but i think you missed it
How do you stim 1t2t3t?
On March 12 2009 01:42 infinity21 wrote:Hey Stylish, Would you say Artosis' 1 rax expand into 3 rax build order here is still a solid BO? I've also tried to do your 9 min push but I can't execute it very well yet so I get overrun by mutas 
Me too
The first time i tried it the most annoying thing is when zerg sends muta to your main while sending speedlings to kill turrets. On destination i pretty much lose to the intial 11 mutas alone.
How do you deal with this?
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i_heart_nukes:
Yes it was a good choice. If he does 3game it meant he's going to try to break you early, possibly also a shuttle with 4 zealots at the same time. For this, increase turrets at you natural or on the cliff close to your natural to defend vs that shuttle, also keep the marines close to the tanks. Wall of is good and then pull all scvs when he is attacking.
After his attack is failed or he decide not to attack just sit tight and macro up.
You have 2 bases he has 1. Thats like 1 player vs 2 players. Macro and wait for scanners, scan his natural and third and if he hasnt taken them keep macroing, scan again if you see natural and third move out and your army will crush his. But wait for the natural and third to be almost finnished to get the better timing of your attack.
If you only see him taking his natural wait for 170 to push, also look out for any kind of cheesestargates in his main, you have pretty much won if he doesn't succeed with the 3gate push.
ilikestarcraft:
Since you don't move out to take his third with a bunch of units this strategy is even safer vs mutalisks imo. you will have 18-20 marines when he comes with mutalisks. Split them up into 10 and 10 and stay close to the turrets with 2 medics in each group. 2-3 turrets + 10marines backing up is enough for 9 or 11 mutalisks, rine reinforcements coming all the time aswell. There shouldn't be a problem if you practice and the micro is executed well.
Be sure to place the turrets on 3 spots, natural, main and another area in your base to cover the gap window of the natural/main turrets and your macroarea.
If you play artosis strat and don't move out for his third its ofcourse even safer vs mutalisks since you will have like 5-6 more marines at that time but then you take away the advantage of that build in the early midgame.
I don't know right now in the back of my mind how I 1t2t3t because its a reflex but i guess I do 1 ringfinger 2-3 longfinger and T with my indexfinger.
There will soon be VODs of ingame 9minPush and you will see the power of the mutadefense. Lately I haven't ever had problems with defending vs mutalisks.
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Oh sorry TBake i forgot about your questions
Im ordering a pizza now and ill answer your post when im full!
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ok np heh, you pizza freak =). Im at school, I will check this later
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Tbake
1. Yes i will post it soon. Mainly you add a third barrack instead of the factory, delay natural exp and keep making a turret at each location until he stops making mutas. I explain it in the VOD.
2. Most of my games i start with 11 rax and then scout so i can adapt to what he does. But that doesn't mean that i start every game knowing i will try the 9minpush. But i suggest lower ranked players to do this, since playing 1 strat over and over again will improve your play faster.
Usually you will only need how to adapt to 2hatchmuta or 3hatchmuta. Also good to know how to open vs 9pool or 9poolspeed, i will do vods of this.
3. If zerg is going to 2hatch muta his gas will finnish before his pool finnishes.
If he's going 3hatch he's going to add gas after he places the third hatch.
Sometimes a zerg can go with faster gas but still 3hatch to get faster muta on 3hatch but worse eco. Then he usually ads gas sometime while the pool is still building, but not nearly as fast as for the 2hatch build.
4. depot at 16 will not stall marineproduction if you make 1 marine before CC. If you wanna be safer and make 2marines before the cc you can add suply on 14 or 15 instead.
I don't put preassure because the 9minpush usually doesn't include firebats. So its abit risky moving out like that but its possible. This strat is more about letting zerg get his third up and punnish him before its effective. You can move out a little bit though and hopefully he will make some sunkens.
5. I didn't exactly play perfect that game. While microing vs turrets and such you can get some overminerals sometimes. But i dont want to add a factory before i scan that he is switching tech. If he keeps making muta only i'd rather keep making turrets and barracks.
I'm in a mood where i don't feel like playing bw. I will take a short break, let these Builds sink in alittle.. i don't know how long it will last, maybe i wanna play tomorrow again i dont know for sure.
This will give you some time to get the builds down before i do more builds.
I've already made the BO VOD for strong FDpush though so i might make the commentary today or so anyway it'll be up shortly.
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When is it an Ideal time to put down more barax's in the 9push. about 75-80 supply add more?
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On March 13 2009 07:24 Tbake wrote:
When is it an Ideal time to put down more barax's in the 9push. about 75-80 supply add more?
add 3 more rax's at 80 supply
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On March 13 2009 07:24 Tbake wrote:
When is it an Ideal time to put down more barax's in the 9push. about 75-80 supply add more?
after you started making
Vessel
upgr 2-1
add them 1 by one rather than saving up 450 for three at the same time. This will get you more marines and enough for the dropship.
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EPT
