EPT[G] 4 Gate PvP - Page 2
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Manifesto7
Osaka27178 Posts
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Jaskwith
United States197 Posts
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do. Well if watch the other vod... with stork...he got 4th gate sooner..so the advantage was kind of an exponential thing..because like he got more goons sooner..when his oppoenent had less units, and then it also allowed him to rally more goons so there was nothing best could have really done... The VOD you posted..it seemed like the toss made the 3 gate to just have more goons to combat with the reaver...and lost. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
intotherainbow vs anytime in Proleague 2006 (iirc) intotherainbow vs Pusan in Proleague 2006 (iirc) | ||
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
It can be defended in medusa if the player made 2 gate robo then observer then reaver w/o shuttle. He will have like 6 goons and 1 reaver. Once the reaver pops out he can expand and still survive it maybe without a battery also. If he expanded before that he will have no reaver and only 1 observer and 4 goons which will lose him the game. Stork knows Best always uses the same build in pvp that is expand at 4 goons before making reaver to cheat his macro. Therefore the counter. | ||
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Starparty
Sweden1963 Posts
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do. the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
On January 22 2009 05:47 drug_vict1m wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2009 05:40 T.O.P. wrote: It's a viable build on rampless maps like Medusa or Longinus. On a map like Python, the defender could just sit on top of his ramp. but u still rape his expo.with good defence against reaver you still have an advantage. dt builds own you tho. Hmm...That's why i would scout? If i saw the robo at his main, i would cancel mine and go allin If i saw the archives into templar, i guess i would go obs or forge TTwTT | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On January 22 2009 20:35 Starparty wrote: the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game. Thats the thing about PvP. If the game was played 4 months ago Guemchi wouldn't expect it and probably expanded much earlier. Horang2 seemed to stop probes completely, he just added the gate 2 and 3 earlier and 4th later than thise previous rushes. And because the build is not new anymore and was used on many occasions, Guemchi has practiced against it and knew the patterns to look for. He looked for the goon count, used exactly the amount of probes he needed (and you need tham at some point) and used the narrower entrance. Horang2 couldn't afford anything else than goons, so I don't think the timing was much different from the previous 4gate rushes. The only difference was that it doesn't surprise anyone on Medusa nowaydays, and surprise factor is important in PvP, and absolutely vital in all-in builds. The only reason he knew what was happening and reacted perfectly was that the build was being used often on the map, and there is a high chance your opponent will use it, which meant in the end that it was no suprise at all, especially from cheesy player like Horang2. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
On January 23 2009 00:31 LemOn wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2009 20:35 Starparty wrote: the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game. Horang2 couldn't afford anything else than goons, so I don't think the timing was much different from the previous 4gate rushes. The only difference was that it doesn't surprise anyone on Medusa nowaydays, and surprise factor is important in PvP, and absolutely vital in all-in builds. That is why i would deny scout, or keep a fake robo untill i could kill the scout probe, while keeping a steady scout in his main. I would assume if the other P went 2 gate robo expand, that a 4 gate goon allin would win? On another note, probe pump is not nessesary. I just pumped a control group of goons, and then when i was about to attack, set up my nat expand. I cut the goon pump after 12-13 goons. I had 2 goons at my nat for protection, and as soon as i put the nexus/pylon up, i attacked his main/nat. | ||
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bubbabro
United States41 Posts
On January 22 2009 05:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:One of the factors that helped me stay in the game was that I did NOT stop my probe pump. Never keep pumping probes. That doesn't make sense! Did you say to keep pumping or not!?! | ||
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Malongo
Chile3479 Posts
win vs gate/core/range/robo/gate/obs/nex key points: -early harrasment from stork giving him a slight advantage in gas and min, the attacking side traded first zealot. -trade first goon, this is HUGE for the attacking side, since the bottleneck is optimized for about 7 goons -attack goes at around 6:00, 7 goons+1 zea vs 3goons+2zeas (2 goons 4 seconds delayed normally 5 goons) , reaver never came in because of nexus. loss vs gate/core/range/robo/gate/obs/reaver key points: - No early harrasment from anyside, no unit trade until attack. - obs about 20 seconds faster from the defending side, here its obvious the succes from stork in gas delay. - attack goes at around 6:00, 8 goons+2 zeas vs 6 goons +2 zeas (last 2 goons came just in time again early harrasment is an issue). Reaver comes in just in time and saves the day. -I say rock failed miserably with his micro too, but thats arguable. Most important notes to success in attacking: -early harrasment -unit position at attack/defense -early unit trade (good for the attack). Not disscussed - The impact for the attacking side going 8pilon/10gate/12pilon then gas. (pilon before gas) - The impact of posible shield-battery and pilon block for the defence (1 pilon in the middle suck normally at least 4/5 goon hits). - Impact of probe defence. - Probe cut (its not clear). | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 23 2009 02:29 DreaM)XeRO wrote: That is why i would deny scout, or keep a fake robo untill i could kill the scout probe, while keeping a steady scout in his main. I would assume if the other P went 2 gate robo expand, that a 4 gate goon allin would win? On another note, probe pump is not nessesary. I just pumped a control group of goons, and then when i was about to attack, set up my nat expand. I cut the goon pump after 12-13 goons. I had 2 goons at my nat for protection, and as soon as i put the nexus/pylon up, i attacked his main/nat. ????? 4gate goon what? | ||
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Malongo
Chile3479 Posts
- As you can see from the 2 vods i posted the build wont work on ramped maps unless you have an eco advantage or opponent messing his timing against a gate/robo/gate/obs. The unit advantage is neglected by the ramp and the lack of vision. - I dont know the timing for a dt rush but its plain clear that 1 dt on the ramp and 1 on your base is autoloss. - The optimized time attack is at 8 goons + 2 zeas, anything later means reaver comes in and the build is way behind in tech, scouting and overall macro. - Best counter against the build: see Best vs Rock. On ramped maps its an autoloss because the defence has too many options-> switch to dts, shuttle speed, expo to islands or wait to break with 4 gates+reaver. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
Not to mention you have a tech disadvantage and DTs own you. Also its only possible on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa. | ||
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GeMicles
Canada307 Posts
some 3 gate goon expand build blocks this off nicely and can put you in a really bad position. also, dt's will f*ck you up bad | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
i what maps one its better that the other thanks | ||
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
3gate goon is more save (you still have a quite normal economy and you can transfer in teching or expanding more easily) I think both strats are only good on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa. 3gate goons could be viable on other maps too but not really good. On ramp maps, 2gate robo, 2gate expansion or 1gate tech are prolly better options. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
3/4 gate goon could work on ramped maps where the other protoss is too aggressive with his unit positioning. You have to make sure he's not going dt however, which means getting off a good midgame scout. 4 gate goon doesn't mean you have to KILL him, but you have to do some damage - at the least contain him and deny any harass to the point where you catch up economically. The thing with 4gate goon is that you cut probes, so your economy is pretty bad. You can definitely expand and get robotics after a 4gate however. | ||
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