Recently I've really gotten into old but still sexy maps such as Longinus II, Andromeda, and Rush Hour. I play on a C+/C level on Iccup and follow the proscene very closely. One match that particularly caught my eye was free[gm] vs Bisu Clubday MSL semi's set 2, when Free went for a 4 gate goon build.
Free completly ignored any higher tech and went straight 1gate/core -> 4 gates. Bisu on the other hand went for a standard 1 gate robo. This would give free a dragoon advantage, and if timed correctly would produce enough dragoons to attack the opponents base before the reaver/shuttle comes out. Free fucked up a bit and attacked before he could utilize the full effects of his 4 gates, but this had me thinking. The early goon/range advantage would give me earlier map control and possibly the game. I subsequently tried this build on Longinus II vs a very good B- toss player and to my suprise I completly ran over him.
Basically go for the standard 1 gate/core. I had originally put down a robo, but canceled when his scouting probe died. I placed 3 additional gates and rallied towards the center of the map. Once I had a full control group of goons ( around 2-3 rounds of goons ) i attacked. To my suprise, all he had was 2 zeals, 5 goons and a shuttle. ( He had expanded ) I ran over his army and danced my way into his main. After about a minute of probe raping he GG'ed.
I do not mean for this build to be an allin. I have played other PvP's where I have gone 4 gate goon, and the opponent has successfully blocked my attack. One of the factors that helped me stay in the game was that I did NOT stop my probe pump. Never keep pumping probes. Also, out of my 4 gate, i only produced about a control group of goons. As soon as the last round of goons came out, I immediatly set up my natural expansion. ( With 2 goons as defense ) I'm just using this 4 gate as a different alternative in PvP
***NOTE***
This strat is only for PvP. ( A terran wallin will screw with the early goon push, and a robo strat is a better idea vT, and why in hell would you go 4 gate goon vZ? ) From what i know, versus a 1 gate robo or 2 gate robo expand, this is a good counter build and a good allin. As in all PvP make sure you know what build your opponent is going. SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT. This build will EPIC FAIL vs a dt build.
On January 22 2009 05:40 T.O.P. wrote: It's a viable build on rampless maps like Medusa or Longinus. On a map like Python, the defender could just sit on top of his ramp.
but u still rape his expo.with good defence against reaver you still have an advantage. dt builds own you tho.
On January 22 2009 05:40 T.O.P. wrote: It's a viable build on rampless maps like Medusa or Longinus. On a map like Python, the defender could just sit on top of his ramp.
I think that yes, it would be a lot harder to assault up the ramp, but the sheer goon advantage SHOULD be enough to break the ramp block if you did not let your enemy see your strategy. I haven't tested this, I'm just speculating.
EDIT: And yes what other people have brought up is true - you would take their nat rather easily, and would have a few goons to spare for defense against reaver drop I believe.
No shit sherlock ;o But protosses usually go 2gate robo expand, and if you go obs first you usually make the nexus before you scout him, as if you didn't and he went 2g robo and expanded before obs, you would be in a severe disadvantage.
PvP is all about mind games, scouting (and counting opponents units) and sometimes also about good old rock paper scissors...
However if he doesn't he is dead the second his expansion is started.
So yes, it is a viable all-in and you should put it into your repertoir, but as every all-ins it is risky, and rarely leads into late game. I would definitely use it against better opponents, or against friends whom I know that they like to expand before knowing what I am up to..
haha its funny. I have played for 3 years only using strategies that ended the game during the mid period. 100+1 different rushes were up me sleeve and gay was my moto. This season I play only safe, 20+ minute games where I avoid attacking, have 40% C- with 300 games, where I could be C+ with 65%. It unbelieveable how much it helped me understand me this game
Yup, I think this build is viable since it worked for you and sometimes it works with my sparing partner. He had tried this move on me for about 3 times and works like a charm when I go 1 gate/robo in andromeda.
Btw, skill level is D/D+.
It's a viable build on rampless maps like Medusa or Longinus. On a map like Python, the defender could just sit on top of his ramp.
Yeah, remember how Stork beat Best because he observed that SKT1 players keep going 1 gate robo on medusa.
Stork did this build successfully vs BeSt during the last OSL, on Medusa
I doubt its very good outside of flat maps, but it seems viable enough here.
Does anyone have a relatively specific build for when you make gateways 2, 3, and 4, and when you cut probes? I've been trying to figure it out on my own but its really sub-optimal and my gateway timings never seem to be when the 'correct' timing is.
we have to keep in mind that 4 gate all-in loses to dark templars. Stork was somewhat lucky that best went robo obs, as the usual SKT1 Protoss does and Stork expected this.
4 gate all in only works if you know your opponent won't go DT's
If I remember correctly there has to be a replay of Best vs foru (and Best was an underdog at that time while foru was the WCG 2005 title holder) at korean preliminaries to wcg 2006 when Best went 4 gate goon and won.
P.S. I also think it is nice to play against people better than you (he is unlikely to go darks).
I've tried 4 gate goon+forge for cannons at nat choke on medusa and its kind of worked but I ended up leaving it at 3 gates because if you go 4 gates you can't afford forge, or you can skip forge and just hope he doesn't do dt but that's a coin-flip.
On January 22 2009 06:58 Cheerio wrote: If I remember correctly there has to be a replay of Best vs foru (and Best was an underdog at that time while foru was the WCG 2005 title holder) at korean preliminaries to wcg 2006 when Best went 4 gate goon and won.
P.S. I also think it is nice to play against people better than you (he is unlikely to go darks).
Anyone have this replay? The 2006 WCG Prelim replays apparently were released but the only links I found to the pack have been dead forever
I've actually done this on ramped maps (read: python). I like to do fake 1 gate robo --->cancel when his scout dies.
Not only will he not expect the ramp break, some of his dragoons, usually 2-3, will be waiting to intercept the reaver drop they think is incoming. This small difference is dragoons defense and the unexpectedness of the frontal assault has really worked well for me.
On January 22 2009 05:49 koreasilver wrote: From what I remember it used to be an extremely effective build that SKT1 Protosses used on Medusa until people started to figure out how to block it.
The open rampless nat of Longinus is pretty similar to Medusa so I think the build should be pretty viable on the map.
On ramped maps though, you probably won't accomplish much besides maybe breaking the nat nexus if they expanded.
Despite having no ramp (although a narrow choke), Guemchi manages to tech reavers and dt vs 4 gate goon and wins with a drop.
edit - o crap it is the same one Lemon posted. I guess we are both brilliant.
Actually it was 3 Gate goon into 4 gate. He didn't add the 4th gate till Guemchi has his reaver out. Usually they have 1 gate and add 3. He had 1 gate and then added 2 quickly and was on 3 gateways for a while and then when the reaver came out he added a 4th gateway.
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do.
Well if watch the other vod... with stork...he got 4th gate sooner..so the advantage was kind of an exponential thing..because like he got more goons sooner..when his oppoenent had less units, and then it also allowed him to rally more goons so there was nothing best could have really done... The VOD you posted..it seemed like the toss made the 3 gate to just have more goons to combat with the reaver...and lost.
4 gate at medusa reaches his base like 5:50 min with 7 goons and 1 zealot.
It can be defended in medusa if the player made 2 gate robo then observer then reaver w/o shuttle. He will have like 6 goons and 1 reaver. Once the reaver pops out he can expand and still survive it maybe without a battery also. If he expanded before that he will have no reaver and only 1 observer and 4 goons which will lose him the game.
Stork knows Best always uses the same build in pvp that is expand at 4 goons before making reaver to cheat his macro. Therefore the counter.
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do.
the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game.
On January 22 2009 05:40 T.O.P. wrote: It's a viable build on rampless maps like Medusa or Longinus. On a map like Python, the defender could just sit on top of his ramp.
but u still rape his expo.with good defence against reaver you still have an advantage. dt builds own you tho.
Hmm...That's why i would scout? If i saw the robo at his main, i would cancel mine and go allin If i saw the archives into templar, i guess i would go obs or forge TTwTT
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do.
the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game.
Thats the thing about PvP. If the game was played 4 months ago Guemchi wouldn't expect it and probably expanded much earlier.
Horang2 seemed to stop probes completely, he just added the gate 2 and 3 earlier and 4th later than thise previous rushes.
And because the build is not new anymore and was used on many occasions, Guemchi has practiced against it and knew the patterns to look for. He looked for the goon count, used exactly the amount of probes he needed (and you need tham at some point) and used the narrower entrance.
Horang2 couldn't afford anything else than goons, so I don't think the timing was much different from the previous 4gate rushes. The only difference was that it doesn't surprise anyone on Medusa nowaydays, and surprise factor is important in PvP, and absolutely vital in all-in builds.
The only reason he knew what was happening and reacted perfectly was that the build was being used often on the map, and there is a high chance your opponent will use it, which meant in the end that it was no suprise at all, especially from cheesy player like Horang2.
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do.
the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game.
Horang2 couldn't afford anything else than goons, so I don't think the timing was much different from the previous 4gate rushes. The only difference was that it doesn't surprise anyone on Medusa nowaydays, and surprise factor is important in PvP, and absolutely vital in all-in builds.
That is why i would deny scout, or keep a fake robo untill i could kill the scout probe, while keeping a steady scout in his main. I would assume if the other P went 2 gate robo expand, that a 4 gate goon allin would win?
On another note, probe pump is not nessesary. I just pumped a control group of goons, and then when i was about to attack, set up my nat expand. I cut the goon pump after 12-13 goons. I had 2 goons at my nat for protection, and as soon as i put the nexus/pylon up, i attacked his main/nat.
On January 22 2009 05:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:One of the factors that helped me stay in the game was that I did NOT stop my probe pump. Never keep pumping probes.
That doesn't make sense! Did you say to keep pumping or not!?!
Some good examples about this: win vs gate/core/range/robo/gate/obs/nex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSOE1CSpZGE&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10226_BeSt_vs_Stork/vod key points: -early harrasment from stork giving him a slight advantage in gas and min, the attacking side traded first zealot. -trade first goon, this is HUGE for the attacking side, since the bottleneck is optimized for about 7 goons -attack goes at around 6:00, 7 goons+1 zea vs 3goons+2zeas (2 goons 4 seconds delayed normally 5 goons) , reaver never came in because of nexus.
loss vs gate/core/range/robo/gate/obs/reaver
key points: - No early harrasment from anyside, no unit trade until attack. - obs about 20 seconds faster from the defending side, here its obvious the succes from stork in gas delay. - attack goes at around 6:00, 8 goons+2 zeas vs 6 goons +2 zeas (last 2 goons came just in time again early harrasment is an issue). Reaver comes in just in time and saves the day. -I say rock failed miserably with his micro too, but thats arguable.
Most important notes to success in attacking: -early harrasment -unit position at attack/defense -early unit trade (good for the attack).
Not disscussed - The impact for the attacking side going 8pilon/10gate/12pilon then gas. (pilon before gas) - The impact of posible shield-battery and pilon block for the defence (1 pilon in the middle suck normally at least 4/5 goon hits). - Impact of probe defence. - Probe cut (its not clear).
On January 22 2009 16:18 Manifesto7 wrote: Do you think an earlier timing of the 4th gate would have given him the advantage to push through the choke? I'm not sure I do.
the point of the strategy was to out-goon the opponent. But in that game, the tech protoss had the same initial amount of units as the goon protoss had. When the big goon army was on its way, the reaver was allready out. I think op meant to get a bigger army before letting the opponent know what was going on, like some sort of suprise. The tech p knew all along what was happening in that game.
Horang2 couldn't afford anything else than goons, so I don't think the timing was much different from the previous 4gate rushes. The only difference was that it doesn't surprise anyone on Medusa nowaydays, and surprise factor is important in PvP, and absolutely vital in all-in builds.
That is why i would deny scout, or keep a fake robo untill i could kill the scout probe, while keeping a steady scout in his main. I would assume if the other P went 2 gate robo expand, that a 4 gate goon allin would win?
On another note, probe pump is not nessesary. I just pumped a control group of goons, and then when i was about to attack, set up my nat expand. I cut the goon pump after 12-13 goons. I had 2 goons at my nat for protection, and as soon as i put the nexus/pylon up, i attacked his main/nat.
After my analisis this is my humble opinion about the build: - As you can see from the 2 vods i posted the build wont work on ramped maps unless you have an eco advantage or opponent messing his timing against a gate/robo/gate/obs. The unit advantage is neglected by the ramp and the lack of vision. - I dont know the timing for a dt rush but its plain clear that 1 dt on the ramp and 1 on your base is autoloss. - The optimized time attack is at 8 goons + 2 zeas, anything later means reaver comes in and the build is way behind in tech, scouting and overall macro. - Best counter against the build: see Best vs Rock. On ramped maps its an autoloss because the defence has too many options-> switch to dts, shuttle speed, expo to islands or wait to break with 4 gates+reaver.
this has probably already been said but the problem with this is DTs just rape you, you cannot keep up a 4gate pump and get robo or cannons in time to spot dts, its one or the other
Its pretty all-inish because you cant supply 4 gates so early without cutting probe production, so if you dont do alot of dmg you will be behind. Not to mention you have a tech disadvantage and DTs own you.
Also its only possible on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa.
sadly, this is an all-in. you want to continuously pump goons and rally to their main until he is dead; you dont want to retreat, back-off then tech. the next part that makes this an all in is that you are running 4 gates off 1 base. 1 base can only support 3 production facilities, and by making 4, you are running an unstable economy.
On January 22 2009 05:49 koreasilver wrote: From what I remember it used to be an extremely effective build that SKT1 Protosses used on Medusa until people started to figure out how to block it.
The open rampless nat of Longinus is pretty similar to Medusa so I think the build should be pretty viable on the map.
On ramped maps though, you probably won't accomplish much besides maybe breaking the nat nexus if they expanded.
So how did their opponents block it?
some 3 gate goon expand build blocks this off nicely and can put you in a really bad position. also, dt's will f*ck you up bad
4gate goon is all-in (your behind if you dont kill him early) 3gate goon is more save (you still have a quite normal economy and you can transfer in teching or expanding more easily)
I think both strats are only good on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa. 3gate goons could be viable on other maps too but not really good. On ramp maps, 2gate robo, 2gate expansion or 1gate tech are prolly better options.
imo, 3gate goon > 4gate goon head to head, just because you come in with an earlier push, with slightly more goons, so you win the initial battle, and from there can maintain your lead. This assumes you push at the right time and don't fail micro and all that however. 4 gate goon is possibly better than 3gate goon vs something like 2 gate obs reaver. The goal of both builds is really to make sure the reaver doesn't do too much damage, because if you get rid of the reaver, you should have more units and then win.
3/4 gate goon could work on ramped maps where the other protoss is too aggressive with his unit positioning. You have to make sure he's not going dt however, which means getting off a good midgame scout.
4 gate goon doesn't mean you have to KILL him, but you have to do some damage - at the least contain him and deny any harass to the point where you catch up economically. The thing with 4gate goon is that you cut probes, so your economy is pretty bad. You can definitely expand and get robotics after a 4gate however.
There are several ways to do a gateway-based pressure build in PvP. (Ignoring 2 gate before core builds, which obviously can apply a lot of early pressure.)
1 gate: If you open no-zealot core, you can pressure early because you have an extra goon and earlier goon range against a zcorez player. The correct response by the opponent is to stay up his ramp until goon range completes, but on a flat map, this can be quite threatening. You're not going to kill anyone this way unless they're terrible, but you may get some early damage off on their units, and perhaps force them to reveal their opening build or buy something defensive (second gateway/shield battery/AI pylons) they didn't want.
2 gate: A zcorez-->2gate cannot apply much pressure unless the opponent skips range or cuts gateway units, unless they're silly enough to expand off 1 gate. However, if you accelerate your goon production by cutting zealots and/or some probes and/or delaying probe scouting (extra early minerals), you can be surprisingly aggressive, possibly to the point of even containing another 2-4 gate goon build at its ramp or breaking a 1 gate tech build on a no-ramp map. I've not seen anyone use 10/15 in PvP, but it can be ferocious. You will have 3 dragoons when a zcorez player has one, and your range upgrade will be faster. (Susceptible to early zealot pressure, though, and with a low probe count you can't afford many losses.)
3 gate: Can apply plenty of pressure, usually designed to give you the faster expansion and be safe (and possibly contain at ramp) against anything but a DT opening. (And if you successfully notice a DT opening you may still be able to robo up, or break the front before DTs because the opponent went unit-light to tech so fast.)
4 gate: Not actually all-in (cheesy because it dies vs. DT), but you MUST contain your opponent at the entrance to his base if you fail to destroy him. He has more probes, so you will need to expand and let his money run out. As Darth noted, watch out for harass. (Also watch out for your opponent elevatoring his units out. When you expand, you may well have fewer units than your opponent as they're mining more minerals and haven't spent on a nexus, so you really rely on that contain to make your dragoons >> his dragoons. Speedlots are also a reasonable choice to break a contain, but since your opponent didn't open DT (or you wouldn't be in this position) it takes a while to get them and you'll probably be fine.)
It should be born in mind whenever you take an early edge in dragoon count, that while the top of a ramp is extremely defensible against dragoons (they miss HALF their shots shooting up a ramp), so is the bottom. Dragoons are very bad at moving up or down ramps, so if your army is focused on the spot they have to step out of? You can kill quite a few dragoons before his army is properly down the ramp to hit you. A dragoon force can contain a noticeably larger one, with a ramp in EITHER direction, if you can take the position. (Zealots help for breaking this sort of contain, because they absorb more hits + are cheaper + move more easily down a ramp.)
The other thing to bear in mind, if you do not have the early unit advantage (or range upgrade advantage) don't engage! I've murdered a lot of players for having one dragoon less than me (even if they're a zealot up) because they met me in the field before their build actually has units.
The fact that this build insta-loses to DT makes it by definition all-in. I did this in the CSL last season, only I canceled a citadel instead of a robo... because a citadel is cheaper, and you generally want to force them into the direction of cannons/robo. Robo, if anything, will lead them to think you have an opening and go 3/4-gate goon themselves, which makes it a very hard fight.
On April 09 2010 11:49 MasterReY wrote: 4gate goon is all-in (your behind if you dont kill him early) 3gate goon is more save (you still have a quite normal economy and you can transfer in teching or expanding more easily)
I think both strats are only good on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa. 3gate goons could be viable on other maps too but not really good. On ramp maps, 2gate robo, 2gate expansion or 1gate tech are prolly better options.
On April 09 2010 09:42 3FFA wrote: Is this at all optimal? I just stumbled upon this and I was wondering whether this is just some all-in or if its actually viable.
You're contradicting yourself. Many allins are quite viable, they aren't mutually exclusive terms.
On April 09 2010 17:11 love1another wrote: The fact that this build insta-loses to DT makes it by definition all-in. I did this in the CSL last season, only I canceled a citadel instead of a robo... because a citadel is cheaper, and you generally want to force them into the direction of cannons/robo. Robo, if anything, will lead them to think you have an opening and go 3/4-gate goon themselves, which makes it a very hard fight.
4 gate goon isn't all-in. It loses straight up to a DT opening, which makes it risky/cheesy. But you do not have to break your opponent's main to win. A four gate goon build can still win if you only contain rather than kill your opponent.
On April 09 2010 11:49 MasterReY wrote: 4gate goon is all-in (your behind if you dont kill him early) 3gate goon is more save (you still have a quite normal economy and you can transfer in teching or expanding more easily)
I think both strats are only good on no-ramp maps like longinus and medusa. 3gate goons could be viable on other maps too but not really good. On ramp maps, 2gate robo, 2gate expansion or 1gate tech are prolly better options.
what about heartbreaker?
Heartbreak Ridge has a choke, but no ramp, and has a cliff to help you contain, which makes it pretty good for 4 gate goon. It's harder to break the opponent's main than on medusa or longinus, since those maps have very wide base entrances that you can just walk through, but 4 gate goon is certainly a viable build there.
On April 09 2010 09:42 3FFA wrote: Is this at all optimal? I just stumbled upon this and I was wondering whether this is just some all-in or if its actually viable.
You're contradicting yourself. Many allins are quite viable, they aren't mutually exclusive terms.
Sorry. I didn't know what else to say besides viable. IDK, standard?
Love this build. My first win vs a korean was 4 gate goons, he got dt's but i ended up winning by blocking my choke and getting a cannon. The dude was like C-
On April 10 2010 05:41 HazMat wrote: Love this build. My first win vs a korean was 4 gate goons, he got dt's but i ended up winning by blocking my choke and getting a cannon. The dude was like C-
EPT
free[gm] vs 
