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[G] The Ultimate Dark Templars Abuse Guide - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
January 12 2009 01:49 GMT
#21
Nice article about Dark Templars. They are the coolest unit indeed.

I have a comment to make though. I think you should have added more information about the weaknesses of a DT build. It requires A LOT of gas and if you do something like a fast DT drop, you would need to wait for a short while of gas mining before being able to build more dragoons, upgrade range, get observers, get high templars, research storm, etc. So try not to make it sound easy when you say "oh, the advantage of doing a dt drop is that you could get quick observers after that (lol, where does all the gas come from?)" So, just beware of how much gas DTs would cost you in addition to having to build dragoons.
Brood War loyalist
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 01:50:47
January 12 2009 01:50 GMT
#22
i'm amazed (P)LuCifer isn't mentioned..

all the guy does is go DT"s...
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 02:17 GMT
#23
On January 12 2009 10:44 Ver wrote:
This is pretty good, nice job. Here's a few suggestions to make it more complete:

Proxy gate DT PvT: It is so powerful (although quite risky) that it can beat 2 fact vulture if the Terran researches speed on their first fact instead of mines. From a Terran's POV, it's just plain unfair. See Anytime vs iloveoov on R-Point against 2 fact vult and Horang2 vs Flash on Byzantium 2 against FD. It is quite a bit different from 1 base DT that it deserves its own mention (imo underused build for how good it is).

I wanted to mention such a game but couldn't find any. Thanks.

Another option is the 1 gate DT -> expand -> arbiter build PvT. This is particularly strong on maps without a buildable center like Medusa, although Protoss have been using it fairly often on Sin Chupung-Ryeong lately. See Free vs Mind on that map (game 2 GOM Season 2 ro8) for another example.

I've never seen this before. Will take a look.

I do want to note though that DT is not quite a 'safe' build. If the Terran goes 1 fact CC and blocks the DTs with minimal damage, they are quite a ways ahead especially if it was a drop. See Flash vs Bisu on Andromeda for details on this. Basically if the Terran doesn't make a major mistake it's virtually impossible for the Protoss to pull through.

In PvZ there is the strategy of dropping DTs in their base when you attack. The FPvod of Savior vs Bisu on Reverse Temple illustrates this beautifully (he looks and sees all his main drones dead)

Would that work nowadays?

Also, some of your conclusions are also too absolute and may give misleading ideas:

i,e

Show nested quote +
All because he neglected to scout properly.

Show nested quote +
This shows once more than relying solely on corsairs to scout is a terrible idea, for by the time they come out doom may already be knocking at your door.


The Savior game is a smart, one time move, and not something where you blame Bisu for not scouting but instead praise Savior.

Praise Savior indeed but that's scoutable. Not scouting that spot on Blue Storm is a major (yet common) blunder.

The July game just highlights the nature of modern PvZ: Protoss does not have luxury of scouting beyond very early game if the Zerg wants to deny it with speedlings and that it is possible to perfectly time a hydra push to finish the game before any DTs can emerge. Scouting is not always the answer to everything; game sense is needed to push beyond natural barriers sometimes.

It seems to me that sending a zealot to scout later on remains an option. And if the zealot doesn't make it through, that's a signal to be extra careful and cannon up.

+ Show Spoiler [Vods] +


Flash vs Bisu
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash

Horang2 vs Flash
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10601_Flash_vs_Horang2

Anytime vs iloveoov
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/4022_Anytime_vs_iloveoov

I'll take a look at these.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 02:39:39
January 12 2009 02:19 GMT
#24
On January 12 2009 10:49 meegrean wrote:
Nice article about Dark Templars. They are the coolest unit indeed.

I have a comment to make though. I think you should have added more information about the weaknesses of a DT build. It requires A LOT of gas and if you do something like a fast DT drop, you would need to wait for a short while of gas mining before being able to build more dragoons, upgrade range, get observers, get high templars, research storm, etc. So try not to make it sound easy when you say "oh, the advantage of doing a dt drop is that you could get quick observers after that (lol, where does all the gas come from?)" So, just beware of how much gas DTs would cost you in addition to having to build dragoons.

True, I never mentioned it explicitly. That being said, it's "standard" to expo right after the units come out so you have a second gas before long.

Edit: I added the mention first thing in the article.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 17:24 GMT
#25
By popular demand I have added two more sections and five more games:

Proxy gateways variants:
2008/12/06 2008 MBCGame Season 3 Survivor Tournament Flash vs Horang2 on Byzantium 2
2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 IefNaij vs HoRRor Set 2 on Azalea
2005/10/28 2005 So1 OnGameNet StarLeague Ro4 Anytime vs iloveoov Set 1 on R-Point

Late game abuse:
2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 IefNaij vs HoRRor Set 1 on Andromeda
2009/01/04 GomTV Avaratec-Intel Classic Season 2 Ro8 Flash vs Bisu Set 3 on Destination

I have also amended the text to clarify certain things, like issues with gas, expanding, and scouting. In total that means about 30% more contents.

Thanks to everyone who gave feedback.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
GinNtoniC
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Sweden2945 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 17:40:52
January 12 2009 17:39 GMT
#26
I appluade the guide, but at the sime time I frown at it.
The two words DT and abuse in the same sentence just makes me think of frustrating games where worse players have cheesed me for a quick win.

no disrespect!
I'm just weary about encouraging people to abuse dark templars more than they already are :S
Huge fan of JulyZerg, HonestTea and that guy Kim Taek Yong.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 17:46:42
January 12 2009 17:45 GMT
#27
Nice guide, though I sense more freewins for T users on iccup from bad DT protosses with no mechanics and wannabe DT users ;l

Huge part we all know of the DT usage is being able to gain the advantage and then have the mechanics and macro to take your initial advantage to the win.
Sup
kawoq
Profile Joined November 2005
Guatemala357 Posts
January 12 2009 18:49 GMT
#28
as always a really good reading, I will watch the games when I get at home for sure =)

though I agree with avilo, most tosses dont have the mechanics and macro to take full advantage of them..

I wonder if you will ever make a player's games analisys, like those you can find in the Sense of the Star blog... I think you will have what is requiered for that...
"It is not a shameful thing to be unable to reach the goal. It's becoming afraid and running away, even before considering the fact that the road is long and rough, that is truly cowardly." by - Lim Yo Hwan aka SlayerS_Boxer from "Crazy as me"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44453 Posts
January 12 2009 18:51 GMT
#29
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 19:35 GMT
#30
On January 13 2009 02:45 avilo wrote:
Nice guide, though I sense more freewins for T users on iccup from bad DT protosses with no mechanics and wannabe DT users ;l

Huge part we all know of the DT usage is being able to gain the advantage and then have the mechanics and macro to take your initial advantage to the win.

Agreed. If you can't get the build right and your first dark templars in under 5 minutes you're toast. And if they don't cripple the opponent you must know and be able to execute the follow-up.

On January 13 2009 03:49 kawoq wrote:
I wonder if you will ever make a player's games analisys, like those you can find in the Sense of the Star blog... I think you will have what is requiered for that...

I'm afraid not. I'm a living programing database alright, but only for games. I don't know enough about the surrounding culture to produce this sort of things without tremendous research.

On January 13 2009 03:51 Kwark wrote:
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

You're very welcome to write your own guide indeed. We'd like to know what's your take on this.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.

This is because we occidentals think very differently from orientals. This guide shows that they too can be abused even at S-class programer level, but it takes a different kind of tricks, and of course flawless execution or you're dead. Especially a pro level, they play so carefully that they won't take whatever bait you throw at them, so no they won't chase your dt with their first observer.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
January 12 2009 19:40 GMT
#31
AHAHAHHAHAH AHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
time to get that olympic level on Iccup ;D

i kid i kid
cw)minsean(ru
TaP.Nuada
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States428 Posts
January 12 2009 20:51 GMT
#32
On January 13 2009 03:51 Kwark wrote:
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.

DT's are the shit pvp, IMO.

My favorite opening is to fast dt, then expand with cannons/storm. Play aggressive when storm/zeal speed finish. And storm/dt drop once your robo is up.

late game dt drops pvp can be quite good, also. You can usually destroy some tech if not a nexus
http://binarybeast.com/ Free Tournament Hosting!
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
January 12 2009 23:09 GMT
#33
very nice guide. Almost makes the dt's seem a bit TOO overpowered :D
Yaqoob
Profile Blog Joined March 2005
Canada3408 Posts
January 13 2009 01:41 GMT
#34
Amazing guide. I like to rush DT's in PvT and PvP and I've seen most of those VODs but I am going to watch most of them again and read this whole guide so I can learn the different build timings.
김택용 Fighting!
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-18 20:01:13
January 18 2009 00:18 GMT
#35
On January 13 2009 10:41 Yaqoob wrote:
Amazing guide. I like to rush DT's in PvT and PvP and I've seen most of those VODs but I am going to watch most of them again and read this whole guide so I can learn the different build timings.

Don't miss the Fenix vs Squall Ascension VOD then! I've just added it:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1329217732/bclid1330313848/bctid1330343472
I thought it was lost forever but Sonovbob just unearthed this in some other thread I had made. That game features the single most amazing dt ever...

Edit: I also just added:
2008/05/17 2008 Razer TSL Ro8 (P)(pl)Draco vs (P)(ua)White-Ra Set 1 on Othello, which features a more standard race against a fast observer build.
And this game:
2008/05/10 2008 Razer TSL Ro16 (P)(it)ClouD vs (P)(ca)IefNaij Set 1 on Wuthering Heights, an interesting game plan variation of the two gateways range build.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Sosha
Profile Joined August 2004
United States749 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-25 09:00:36
February 25 2009 08:59 GMT
#36
Just viewing a couple of games so far, and after watching the
(T)Flash v (P)Horang2
and i dont wanna seem crazy - but I think some credit's due to horang that game. He played quite spectacularly. Even though his intial build was foud out, he stilled managed good control w/ his 1st units, sacrificing zeals when he needed to, to get his DT's in - as well as managing them inside flashs base, until he eventualy got enough units there ( while also targetting specific buildings to make flash lose hope ).

so ya..
it was a pretty gg.
GL
Tranquility through fluid Motion. GlowBabyGlow.
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10835 Posts
February 25 2009 09:08 GMT
#37
oh hells no

i need a terran admin to 1984 this topic asap

fakesteve? mani?
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
Centric
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1989 Posts
February 25 2009 09:15 GMT
#38
Wow...great job.
Super serious.
DeathSpank
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1029 Posts
February 25 2009 09:54 GMT
#39
damn dirty dt's....how I hate thee...at least overlords are detectors....
yes.
dibban
Profile Joined July 2008
Sweden1279 Posts
February 25 2009 10:30 GMT
#40
Nice guide! Looks like you put some effort intro it, very nice. :-)
이제동 - 이영호 since '07.
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