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[G] The Ultimate Dark Templars Abuse Guide

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-18 19:59:26
January 12 2009 00:09 GMT
#1
Behold! After long clamoring in my previous threads for an advanced guide of mine intricated with build orders and occult techniques, you faithful readers finally get what you asked for! Everything there is to know about abusing the cheesiest, most dreadful, most detested unit of the game: the infamous dark templar!

Those familiar with my previous guides know the format: tips are accompanied by progamer-class examples with game analysis. I encourage you to watch the VODs as they really speak for themselves. Also, do read the analysis for each game, for the bulk of the contents lies therein.


One gateway fast builds

While the dark templar is versatile, its prime use is to devastate the enemy base before there is sufficient detection and defenses. Therefore we shall first focus on a most intuitive build which warrants little description, only a question: How fast can we get dark templars? With a straightforward one gateway / cybernetics core / citadel of Adun / templar archives build, we can have them as early as 4:45, from which we can rush the opponent while expanding; during this window we are somewhat safe from attack.

Still, it begs the question: How safe is this build? Isn't rushing straight to dark templars utterly reckless? Won't we starve ourselves of the gas we need for units or further tech? Aren't we in trouble if we fail to do significant damange? I shall answer by the negative: If executed properly, this build is very safe even in dire circumstances, while the first expansion provides us with all the resources we need afterwards. We shall put that theory to test:

versus Terran

2008/10/18 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro16 Group A (T)fOrGG vs (P)Stork Set 1 on Destination
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
First let's see how it fares against FD. Stork cleverly hides his citadel of Adun and templar archives in the back of his base as to not alert his opponent of what's coming; to the first scouting SCV, it looks like just another one gate core build. Meanwhile ForGG opts for an aforementioned FD build and denies scouting to the first zealot. Observe that Stork builds the minimum number of units to keep him safe and deny scouting; when the second SCV tries to pass through, all it sees is a warping nexus at the natural. So at this stage it looks like just another fast expo build, likely fast observers or reavers.

But even as the first Terran push advances, so does the first dark templar; they meet at the center of the map. This first one's goal isn't to kill those units but get past them, to ForGG's natural, so it advances with the move command (don't attack move! you will spoil everything). It avoids the first mines, which had been laid before the ramp instead of before the bridges, and denies the expansion for quite some time. ForGG attempts to do the same with his tank and vulture but a second dark templar is used to defend the base.

Notice how both dark templars destroy mines as they are being laid. It has become popular lately to open with fast mines as they can take down dark templars but with proper micro the mines are rendered mostly ineffective. First, a dark templar can withstand a single mine hit, so you have a margin of error. Second, it can swipe a mine just before it burrows, so they can hardly be used in an offensive manner. Third, a dark templar can destroy a mine in flight, jut before it detonates. So when you see vultures, keep cool and stand your ground; they're not as threatening as they look.

Back to the game. While ForGG struggles against dark templars, Stork transitions to carriers. A strategy now doubly suicidal, you might think, but it worked! A fast dark templars, fast carriers build defeated an FD Terran! It shows that nearly any opening can work, assuming the surprise effect and decent micro.


2008/05/28 2008 Ever OnGameNet Starleague Ro16 Group D (T)Mind vs (P)Much on Othello
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Not only is it possible to warp in dark templars in 4:45, it's also possible to drop them just as early. This even more reckless build requires not to make any units save for a zealot to block the ramp (and vitally deny scouting!), as Much does in this game, and every single drop of gas one can gather. The robotics facility starts to warp in sometime between the citadel of Adun and the templar archives. It is then possible to make a shuttle in time and drop the first two dark templars right into the enemy base for an even faster rush. When they land into Mind's base, the first turret isn't even complete yet, and only brillant micro saved the day for Mind. As a bonus, this build allows for fast observers! Mind keeps fighting valiantly but never recover.


versus Zerg

2008/11/01 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro8 Group B (P)JangBi vs (Z)YellOw[ArnC] Set 2 on Byzantium 2
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Fine, it works fine against an FD build, but surely it cannot work against Zerg players, right? Since they have overlords, the dark templars will be promptly taken down, won't they? And isn't that build awfully vulnerable to early zerglings? All these are pertinent objections, which this game shall put to rest.

First the early zerglings. The secret is to cheat a little with our build and open with a forge. Jangbi does and withstands the zergling rush, if only barely. He suffers significant damage but don't count him out of the game yet. His dark templars are obviously delayed, and significantly so, but even then they shall prove surprisingly effective. Verify for yourself that this isn't the Bisu build, for there is no stargate, let alone corsairs. There is nothing to chase away overlords.

Yellow is relentless with his zerglings, but Jangbi manages to hold with a cannon in his mineral and dark templars for defense; his buildings are to tight that the zerglings cannot take down anything without being exposed. Meanwhile, a single dark templar sneaks past Yellow's natural, to his main, kills all the drones and starts cutting into the spawning pool. At this stage of the game, overlords don't have either speed or sight range upgrades, so if you sneak past them the zerg player cannot defend effectively. The spawning pool is saved in extremis, but the dark templar lives, hiding past the overlord's sight. See how it survives even within a closed area merely by eluding the overlord. Later it shall come back to finish the spawning pool, the moment Yellow is busy elsewhere.

We transition to middle game. Jangbi opts for archons to defend against Yellow's mutalisks. Yet even then dark templars still wreak havoc in Yellow's base; his natural is guarded by a sunken colony and an overlord but the templar simply sneaks past it and kills drones. The one that remains trapped in Yellow's main keeps threatening to come back even though there's an overlord and many zerglings, a quite wearing type of harrassment even before it makes any damage; since whatever a dark templar kills in a single attack (likes drones and zerglings) does not alert his opponent that he is under attack, Yellow has to be extra watchful. On the other hand, mutalisks don't fare well against cannons and archons, so Jangbi is very safe, and soon after claims victory.

We shall conclude that this build is quite safe even against a very aggressive Zerg player, as long as you micro properly.


2008/02/20 2008 XNote GOMTV Star Invitational Ro16 Group D (P)Bisu vs (Z)GGPlay on Baekmagoji
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Since this map's natural defenses makes sneaking inside the enemy base very difficult, Bisu has little choice but to abandon his initial plan and instead give his dark templars secondary roles. GGPlay attacks with mutalisks but Bisu wisely made archons, therefore they do little damage.

As the game progresses into mapwide mayhem, how can dark templars help? Bisu uses them in two ways. First he mixes some with his attack groups, so that they can make free kills during encounters, for dark templars are difficult to target in the midst of a battle. Second, he uses them for defense, as rarely do overlords closely follow attacking Zerg forces, so dark templars can even kill ultralisks! We shall elaborate about this different role in the next section. For now just keep in mind that just because there is no early opening for your dark templars doesn't mean you have made them in vain.

Beware of defilers; plague can reveal cloaked units. This is why GGPlay uses it in desperation late game, and shows how badly the dark templars hurt him. Another example game which features this technique (fast forward to 26:05 video time, 24:45 game time):

2008/08/17 2008 WCG Korea Finals 3rd Place Match (P)Much vs (Z)Luxury Set 1 on Andromeda
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +


~2008/12/03 Ascension Tournament Group 1 Game 2 Fenix vs (Z)(es)SquaLL on Zodiac
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1329217732/bclid1330313848/bctid1330343472
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
This PvZ game on Zodiac during the Ascension tournament (VODs) featured Fenix who tried this build but was countered by Squall's hydralisk push. Still, one dark templar barely made it past the blockade and managed to kill every single drone of his opponent's two mining bases before the Zerg player even noticed! As mentioned above, whatever a dark templar kills instantly does not trigger an under attack alert, so if you micro properly as to not attack buildings prematurely, you can kill ridiculous numbers of drones at unprotected expansions, even if there are overlords, long before your opponent notices!


versus Protoss

2008/11/15 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro4 Group B (P)Bisu vs (P)free Set 4 on Byzantium 2
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Can we devise a counter even more dreadful than a zergling rush followed by 3-hatch mutas? How about proxy gateways, plus a forge, plus fast observers? Now it's impossible to pull out, isn't it? It looks tailored to defeat any fast dark templar build!

Think again; in fact, it works even if the dark templars are late, as in the previous game, even without complete surprise, and even if they're microed lousily. This is how Bisu manages to defeat Free, who builds three proxy gateways right next to his base. Free closes in with dragoons as Bisu attempts to expand. As in the first game, the first dark templar isn't used to defend but moves past the attacker, to the opponent's base, but Free notices it anyway (his dragoons bumped into something, and dark templars blur the space around them as they move), therefore builds a forge. The cannons warps in slightly late, but they're well positioned, at each end of the mineral line, and the dark templar is trapped between them, amid the probes.

Here's the bad micro part. In such a situation, don't try to take down the warping cannons; do as much damage as possible and pull away right before the cannons finish. Usually you're fighting a losing battle against multiple incoming defenses, like cannons or turrets, while not doing any actual damage to the opponent. In this case, Bisu should have just taken as many probes with him as he could, instead of trying to destroy the cannons, in vain; not only did he fail but his first dark templar went down with only a few kills.

So that leaves Bisu microing with probes against dragoons, while his opponent's base is protected by cannons. Hopeless? Not so fast. Two more dark templars come to the rescue and wipe out Free's dragoons before they do crippling damage. While Free warps in a robotics facility for observers, Bisu takes down whatever he can outside of the cannons' range, then with two dragoons moves in to kill one of the cannons and wreak havoc in his opponent's base. An observer comes out to protect Free's units crossing the map, having emerged from the proxy gateways. Free's plan is to defend and take down Bisu using troops from his proxy gateways but Bisu simplifies, taking down Free's nexus while suffering only minimal damage in return back home. Free gives up.


2008/05/17 2008 Razer TSL Ro8 (P)(pl)Draco vs (P)(ua)White-Ra Set 1 on Othello
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Some will argue that the above game was unorthodox. Fine then: how does a fast dark templar rush fare against a standard fast observer build? It all depends on timing: if the dark templars are on time, they can win the race against observers, if only barely, but if they are late, they won't make it through.

Here's how it happened in that game. Draco denies scouting to White-ra and builds a manner pylon inside his base, but that throws off his build order timing, so that everything is delayed by as much as 45 seconds, while his opponent's fast observer build goes smoothly. So when Draco's first dark templar leaves his base around 5:30, White-Ra already has an observer underway, therefore the dark templar is unable to slip through and must turn around.

But if the build had been executed properly, the dark templars would have been ready by 4:45. At 5:30, they would already have been in White-Ra's base killing workers. So against a fast observer build timing is key: don't waste time, and don't waste gas, or you're in trouble. And indeed Draco lost that game shortly after, far behind in tech, units, and economy.


2008/11/15 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro4 Group B (P)Bisu vs (P)free Set 3 on Destination
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Is there nothing then that can counter this build? Let's be devious by fighting fire with fire, and pit dark templars against dark templars; this way one side is sure to fall! Are we not brillant?

Bisu opens with a proxy gateway in Free's natural. For a couple minutes it turns to zealot fight, until the proxy is taken down. So far Free has build only one gateway and rushes for templar tech. Bisu technically has built more than one gateway (there's two in his base) but the beginning of the game explains it. Both players also build a forge and robotics facility, anticipating that the other player has also opted for dark templars. Their respective dark templars meet in the middle of the map.

Free's templars reach their destination first, before Bisu has any cannons or observers at home, therefore Bisu has to block the ramp to prevent their incursion into his base. But he only buys some time for they get in anyway and he has to micro his way out of that situation; one barely survives (but dies soon after) while the other one is trapped amid probes and dragoons. Bisu isn't so fortunate in his attempt to annoy his opponent because there are already cannons awaiting.

This reciprocal build transitions neatly to middle game as both players make high templars, while dark templars take the back seat. So who won the game? It is irrelevant, as neither side's dark templars proved decisive! So our dark templars versus dark templars contest gives... a draw. So much for our clever mirror matchup.


2008/10/11 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro32 Group D (P)Much vs (P)BackHo on Byzantium 2
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Let's revisit this mirror build idea. In this game both players open fast dark templars, although BackHo does so with a small variation, researching the dragoon range upgrade, delaying his dark templars a bit. One of Much tries to get through BackHo's ramp, which is guarded by two dragoons, but his opponent's own dark templars come to the rescue just in time and block the ramp. So the two players block one another on that ramp in a rare standoff! We shall conclude, despite this amazing deadlock, that Much's build is better because it allows him to expand to his natural, whereas BackHo is forced to research observers ASAP, all due to his dragoon range upgrade blunder.

The game continues as follows. Both players make observers. BackHo attempts to come back from behind by dropping on Much, but his shuttle is spotted by an observer long before it arrives, so the drop fails. BackHo's last hope is to break his opponent's defenses with an all-out attack before getting outmacroed due to his economical disadvantage but it is already too late. gg.


2008/05/14 2008 Ever OnGameNet Starleague Ro16 Group D (P)Much vs (P)BackHo on Andromeda
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
The above notwithstanding, there is one factor that is essential to this build's success: surprise. If your opponent sees your tech buildings before your dark templars are out then it is easy to counter.

In this game Much opens fast dark templars. He hides his citadel of Adun yet neglects to hide his templar archives at the same location, therefore BackHo's second probe sees it. Then BackHo has plenty of time to make observers and arrange a reception committee at his base. Now Much is behind. Ironically, it is BackHo that surprises Much butt naked with a dark templar drop before the first cannon warps in! The game goes normally from there but Much remains behind until he concedes. The cause of defeat? Not hiding a tech building by pure negligence.


Proxy gateways variants

What is even more base than abusing the cheesiest unit of the game? Turn it to cheese of course! These variants of one gateway dark templar rush builds require two proxy gateways, to be build some time past the cybernetics core. The funny thing is, even if seen, it remains utterly effective (especially against Terrans)! The following games demonstrate how it works:

versus Terran

2008/12/06 2008 MBCGame Season 3 Survivor Tournament (T)Flash vs (P)Horang2 on Byzantium 2
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Brillant play by Horang2, who builds proxy gateways next to his unsuspecting opponent's base, who opens FD; as you must have figured by now, opening FD versus dark templars means death. Flash sends a marine to scout and sees the proxy, but too late! The first dark templar tags along as the marine comes back, then cut through the enemy troops.

The first vulture lays mines on the ramp but there are two dark templars now, so one sacrifices himself and brings down nearly every remaining unit with him in the mine blast, including the tank! Then Horang2 uses a zealot as a minesweeper to clear a path through Flash's main base. Soon there are three dark templars wrecking havoc.

The micro here is impeccable. Horang2 only takes down the building turrets he can and leaves the rest to focus on workers and buildings, then spreads them out as turrets complete and reinforcements come out. Flash resists in vain and soon gives up.


2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 (P)(ca)IefNaij vs (T)(de)HoRRor Set 2 on Azalea
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
Sorry VOD not uploaded to Youtube yet! Try TL.net's Torrent Tracker.
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
It is trivial to wall in on this map but a dark templar rush remains doable, at least with a proxy. Horror sees it long before even the second proxy gateway warps in and predictably turtles in his base, bracing for the impact.

A zealot and dragoon keep him in his base repairing his wall and rushing for siege tanks. But little does he know that dark templars are coming! Faced with two of them trying to breach through, he's left with no choice but to buy time with three repairing SCVs, a significant drain to his economy.

The dark templars don't make it through the wall however, and eventually they have to pull out as Horror builds turrets and pushes out. This isn't the end of his problems though, as IefNaij drops two more inside his base, where there are no turrets! IefNaij initially made a micro mistake by attempting to take down the comsat station, but he only wastes time as the SCVs gather around to repair it, but rapidly rectifies and attacks workers instead, the right thing to do in most scenarios. With nice shuttle micro he succeeds at avoiding comsat scans, since Horror has nothing that shoots in the air! He's forced to make turrets all over, and builds a wraith just to take down the shuttle!

All this harrassment allowed IefNaij to pull out so far ahead that at some point I'd swear he has more probes than Horror has units. It degenerates into a protracted but dramatically uneven match in which IefNaij control three fourths of the map and is just happy to suicide macro and recall until Horror is forced to concede.

This game shows that even if your dark templars make few kills, they can be so annoying that they keep your opponent in his base while you comfortably spread over the map.


2005/10/28 2005 So1 OnGameNet StarLeague Ro4 (P)Anytime vs (T)iloveoov Set 1 on R-Point
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
In this old game Anytime makes proxy gateways facing iloveoov's two factories build. If you need any evidence that dark templars can overcome nonstop vultures laying mines, this is the game to watch.

One note about the micro in this game, something that also applies to other games on this list. When a mine springs up from the ground, every player has the reflex to pull away, which is the wrong thing to do. You must instead go towards the opponent, in the hope of bringing down enemy units or other mines with you; spider mines are a double edged sword, as they damage both friendly and enemy units indiscriminately.


Two gateways pressure builds

While in the first class of builds the second gateway is delayed until around the time the templar archives starts, here we shall study the transition from two gateways dragoon range upgrade builds to dark templars. The main difference, aside from the build order variation, is that this build is somewhat safer but aims at pressuring the opponent instead of outright kamikaze harrassment. We shall not merely send the dark templars to sneak inside the enemy base but instead push along with the rest of our units. Take notice that now dark templars shall come out at least a full minute later because we need gas for dragoons and the range upgrade (let alone a robotics facility if we choose to drop), which means there shall be a lot more detection and enemy units.

Let's begin as in the previous section:

versus Terran

2008/05/10 2008 Razer TSL Ro16 (P)(pl)Draco vs (T)(ua)Strelok Set 2 on Othello
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Once again we face an FD Terran, but the build order differs as outlined above. By the time the first dark templar comes out, around 6:00, Draco has already begun to pressure Strelok with zealots and dragoons, and pushed him back into his base. Draco exchanges his zealots for mines, clearing a path for the dark templars.

Meanwhile Strelok harasses at Draco's warping natural expansion but more dark templars are ready to welcome them. See how easily the mines are destroyed before they have a chance to burrow, merely granting the vultures time to escape. Draco's micro here is impeccable; his dark templars stick to the vultures instead of running away from them, so if they lay more mines those can be cleared as well. On the other hand they do not follow when the vultures escape or they would be led into a minefield. Thus they hold until the observers arrive.

As we transition to midgame, Draco mixes his dark templars with his main force and engages the enemy with them. See, instead of sneaking dark templars inside the enemy base, Draco attacks with them, using the confusion of the battle to do extra damage, and this highlights the difference in aim between this build and one gateway builds.


2008/10/16 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro16 Group H (T)Hwasin vs (P)Bisu Set 1 on Byzantium 2
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Here's an interesting variation. Bisu opens with a standard 2 gateways cybernetics core dragoon range upgrade build and expands, defending against the FD push with a sizeable dragoon force. Then he makes templar archives and a robotics facility simultaneously to drop dark templars in his opponent's base. While this is reminiscent of the fast dark templar drop build, its goal and execution are instead those of reaver drops: pick up whatever you can and keep the Terran player in his base as long as possible. There's just too many turrets and units to do crippling damage as in a fast dark templar build, so don't make kamikaze moves with your templars and shuttle. Think pressure instead. Dark templars may also be left behind to lurk in corners, providing extra awareness of enemy movements and granting further harrassment opportunities, like expansion denial, when the opponent no longer expects it.

Another advantage of this build is that you can get observers and high templars quickly, and also smoothly transition to arbiters afterwards, all this while expanding. This clever all-around build has been designed with macro intensive games and early high tech in mind, just what you need to defeat prudent Terran players like Hwasin.


versus Protoss

2008/10/30 2008 ClubDay Online MBCGame Starleague Ro8 Group A (P)Stork vs (P)Kal Set 3 on Medusa
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
In this game both Stork and Kal opt for two gateways dragoon range build. However, whereas Stork follows with a robotics facility, Kal in secret goes for dark templars. The first dark templar comes soon enough to sneak inside the enemy base before his first observer arrives, while another harrasses Stork's troops, temporarily forced to withdraw.

At this point Stork has the macro advantage. Kal prepares for the upcoming siege but Stork instead has a surprise for him: he's making dark templars himself, which he drops at Kal's expansion in the back, nearly taking down the nexus, then finishing the job the second time with zealots.

The remaining of the game is more standard. Both mix their remaining few dark templars with their main fighting force, with little effectiveness given their meager numbers and since both sides have observers.

The course of the game could have been quite different if Kal had opted for a single gateway fast dark templars build, and not had harrassed Stork's units. This way, not only would the templars have reached Stork's base 45 seconds earlier, they also would have without warning, but instead Kal tried to play safe and instead ruined his chances of doing significant damage, and his victory proved more difficult to earn. But suppose he really meant to play this build; what then would have been the correct play? To pressure Stork with the rest of his units as well, which would have made a huge difference, instead of merely sending dark templars alone against a fast observer build. This is the difference in purpose and execution between the two builds.


2008/05/10 2008 Razer TSL Ro16 (P)(it)ClouD vs (P)(ca)IefNaij Set 1 on Wuthering Heights
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
The above game's conclusions notwithstanding, sneaking dark templars inside your enemy's base remains an option even with this build, if your opponent is careless enough not to get fast observers.

In this game both players opt for two gateways builds, but Cloud's scouting probe gets taken out at the entrance to IefNaij's natural, instead of at his main base's, which hints at a very fast expansion. Therefore Cloud chooses to make quick dark templars, betting that his opponent's observers will be significantly delayed. He sneaks the first one inside IefNaij's base, while the next one is only kept out by a wall of units. IefNaij's observers are so late, as he even made a robotics facility before his observatory, that by the time the first one gets out, the game is essentially over.

If Cloud had run into his opponent with his units and used his dark templars to attack, it might not have worked so well. The first dark templar might not have been able to slip inside the enemy base, at least not so quickly. Both approaches have pros and cons, so you have to use your judgement to decide which option is more likely to work.


The Bisu build

Did you notice there is no two gateways dragoon range upgrade example against the Zerg? Because there is so much better: the most famous Bisu build. Instead of opening with a citadel of Adun or a robotics facility, we instead forge, fast expand, then warp in a stargate and pump out corsairs to kill overlords, so that dark templars can sneak behind enemy lines and kill drones with impunity. Depending on the opportunities you get, or lack thereof, how you will use your dark templars is to be aligned either with one gateway builds or two gateways builds. In respect to that, there is little more to add.

I nonetheless provide an outstanding, epic example game, brillantly demonstrating the principles underscored in the previous sections:

2007/11/30 2007 Ever OnGameNet Starleague Ro8 Group C (P)Bisu vs (Z)sAviOr Set 3 on Fantasy II
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
This variant of the Bisu build delays templar tech in favor of reavers and the shuttle speed upgrade.

No further analysis provided; watch for your own enjoyment.


We shall however look into this build's main weakness: it is vulnerable to a carefully executed hydralisk push, mainly due to the dark templars being delayed as much as they are. Therefore if you opt for this build, you better scout thoroughly and make sure to have sufficient defenses! It's partly for that reason that some variants of this build make early high templars, or replace the templar tech with a robotics facility and reavers; in addition to killing workers more quickly, they also fare much better against hydralisks.

2007/11/23 2007 Ever OnGameNet Starleague Ro8 Group C (P)Bisu vs (Z)sAviOr Set 1 on Blue Storm
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
In a grudge rematch, Savior makes a proxy hatchery at Bisu's third mineral spot up the ramp, then pumps out hydras and attacks his opponent's underprotected natural expansion before the dark templars come out, the first one as late as 7:10. These barely manage to stop the first push with the help of corsairs, but in the end Bisu just gets outmacroed with tons of hydralisks followed closely by overlords. All because he neglected to scout properly.


2008/01/23 2008 Bacchus OSL Ro16 Group C (P)Bisu vs (Z)July on Blue Storm
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
This game is similar to the previous one, except there is no proxy hatchery. July judiciously denies scouting with zerglings guarding the ramp across the center of the map. The push comes even sooner than in the previous game, around 6:15, so July's hydralisks have plenty of time to wreak havoc to Bisu's natural and beyond. The game ends in victory for July by decision because Bisu dropped.

This shows once more than relying solely on corsairs to scout is a terrible idea, for by the time they come out doom may already be knocking at your door. Send a zealot or two by the time your natural expansion is operational, and if they don't make it through, cannon up ASAP.


Late game abuse

Who said that dark templars are only cut for rushes? Not only do they have uses from beginning to end, they may not be introduced until late in the game, should the opponent run out of detection options.

versus Terran

2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 (P)(ca)IefNaij vs (T)(de)HoRRor Set 1 on Andromeda
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
Sorry VOD not uploaded to Youtube yet! Try TL.net's Torrent Tracker.
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Horror gets horribly beat up by a fleet of carriers, but decides in desperation to ignore that threat and simplify, besieging his opponent's base. This game could have lasted a lot longer should IefNaij not have summoned dark templars to clear up the remains of Horror's force, since he had just deprived his opponent of comsat stations. Horror attempts to build turrets instead but it proves ineffective.


2009/01/04 GomTV Avaratec-Intel Classic Season 2 Ro8 (T)Flash vs (P)Bisu Set 3 on Destination
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/540
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +
Bisu wears down Flash with arbiters, denying him expansions. Resources-starved, his opponent opts to take out his army for one desperate push, which may very well succeed since Bisu's army melts before his tanks. But his science vessels are taken down and he exhausted his comsat stations' energy, so Bisu cleverly calls on dark templars to finish the cleanup job and then harrass expansions. With no means to remake such an force, Flash surrenders.


Conclusion

The dark templar is the greatest, coolest, most dangerous unit in the game. It ranks right next to cheating on the scale of underhanded schemes. Many complained over the years that it imbalances the game in favor of the Protoss. Nearly every Starcraft player hates them and fears them. Why so hostile? Do as Bisu did: if you can't beat them, join them! Use and abuse dark templar tricks over and over, and make your opponents fear you and hate you instead! [insert sardonic laugh here]

Let Them Hate Me, As Long As They Fear Me. -- Caligula
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Nitrogen
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States5345 Posts
January 12 2009 00:13 GMT
#2
wow, i didn't read the whole thing, but you put a lot of effort into this post and it came out well. good job. i really like the vods of the progamers with their dt harass.

+ Show Spoiler +
FUCK DARK TEMPLAR K?
UNFUCK YOURSELF
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 00:18 GMT
#3
On January 12 2009 09:13 Nitrogen wrote:
wow, i didn't read the whole thing, but you put a lot of effort into this post and it came out well. good job. i really like the vods of the progamers with their dt harass.

+ Show Spoiler +
FUCK DARK TEMPLAR K?

You people better enjoy it! It took me three full days to research and write.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
January 12 2009 00:22 GMT
#4
I hate you

+ Show Spoiler +
Nah very nicely written, good job writing it, the work is appreciated
sAviOr...
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
January 12 2009 00:24 GMT
#5
really cool guide

you might think about talking about dt drop builds too though, although the distinction begins to get a little blurry
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
d1v
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Sweden868 Posts
January 12 2009 00:26 GMT
#6
OMG, guess I won't play T for a month until the DT abusers get tired
Adams Æbler
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 00:26 GMT
#7
On January 12 2009 09:24 fusionsdf wrote:
really cool guide

you might think about talking about dt drop builds too though, although the distinction begins to get a little blurry

I do talk about drops, but they're inserted within the first two sections.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
January 12 2009 00:26 GMT
#8
Nooooooooo more DT's to deal with

lol nice work on the guide
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
January 12 2009 00:35 GMT
#9
why do i get the feeling im gonna be facing DT rushes for a while now..
im deaf
Nitrogen
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States5345 Posts
January 12 2009 00:41 GMT
#10
On January 12 2009 09:35 imBLIND wrote:
why do i get the feeling im gonna be facing DT rushes for a while now..


how is that any different from usual T_T
UNFUCK YOURSELF
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
January 12 2009 00:41 GMT
#11
oh no..
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
CommanderFluffy
Profile Joined June 2008
Taiwan1059 Posts
January 12 2009 00:48 GMT
#12
DT sneaks into zerg mains is probably one of the more frustrating parts of fighting toss scum
Pain is temporary, but glory is forever.
iNfeRnaL *
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Germany1908 Posts
January 12 2009 00:59 GMT
#13
Nice written article. Much dedication right there <3
However u left out some aspects that I'd like to add, yes DT in PvT is safe against FD push.
Against 2 fax its auto suicide tho.
As well as vult drop openings.
As well as any map where you can wall off the natural as Terran. ;P
DT can be really good but as you mentioned, you really really really really really need to deny and kind of scouting because even the lack of one pylon in your main can be the "wait, wat?" hint which is enough to a really good Terran.

Also I'd like to add another thing about PvZ because the actual Bisu build is pretty much countered out nowadays. (speedlord/hydrabuilds or same with scourge first)
I bet you all know about the 2 archon / speedlot push after 2 sairs or general zealot pushes after sair?
Against a greedy Zerg there's this little neato timing window which is RIGHT when your push is still ongoing (basically you build 2 DT's and 2 HT's by the time you move out with your push) and then just rally one dt each to natural and 2nd base.

If your push was somewhat successful Zerg is always low on def & units, at best even still busy fighting with some zeals and this is your jackpot time as Protoss player if you got some multitasking, you won't even need sairs for that, but if you still got your initial 2 sairs its even better.
naonao
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States847 Posts
January 12 2009 01:01 GMT
#14
On January 12 2009 09:41 Nitrogen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2009 09:35 imBLIND wrote:
why do i get the feeling im gonna be facing DT rushes for a while now..


how is that any different from usual T_T

yeah... in my first 2 PvPs of this iccup season i got DT rushed :/
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
January 12 2009 01:05 GMT
#15
Nice article, but I HATE DARK TEMPLARS ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
January 12 2009 01:10 GMT
#16
On January 12 2009 09:48 CommanderFluffy wrote:
DT sneaks into zerg mains is probably one of the more frustrating parts of fighting toss scum

One of the most horrifying games I have ever played was getting Anytime'd.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 01:12 GMT
#17
On January 12 2009 09:59 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice written article. Much dedication right there <3
However u left out some aspects that I'd like to add, yes DT in PvT is safe against FD push.
Against 2 fax its auto suicide tho.
As well as vult drop openings.
As well as any map where you can wall off the natural as Terran. ;P

Even if the terran walls off his nat, there's always the fast dt drop (see second game).
As for the vulture drop opening, adding a forge may be sufficient. But you have to see it coming.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 01:42:36
January 12 2009 01:14 GMT
#18
Great post, although I'm not much of a DT abuser.

Have you considered talking about DTs in late game PvT? A recent example of great DT use in this situation was Bisu vs Flash where Bisu builds DTs because he knows Flash is low on scans because of arbiters.

Edit: Video: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/540
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 01:28 GMT
#19
On January 12 2009 10:14 Fontong wrote:
Great post, although I'm not much of a DT abuser.

Have you considered talking about DTs in late game PvT? A recent example of great DT use in this situation was Bisu vs Flash where Bisu builds DTs because he knows Flash is low on scans because of arbiters.

Right now I'm seeing little dts dancing all around so that's a resounding no. But if you give me the exact game, perhaps I'll make an addition tomorrow.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
January 12 2009 01:44 GMT
#20
This is pretty good, nice job. Here's a few suggestions to make it more complete:

Proxy gate DT PvT: It is so powerful (although quite risky) that it can beat 2 fact vulture if the Terran researches speed on their first fact instead of mines. From a Terran's POV, it's just plain unfair. See Anytime vs iloveoov on R-Point against 2 fact vult and Horang2 vs Flash on Byzantium 2 against FD. It is quite a bit different from 1 base DT that it deserves its own mention (imo underused build for how good it is).

Another option is the 1 gate DT -> expand -> arbiter build PvT. This is particularly strong on maps without a buildable center like Medusa, although Protoss have been using it fairly often on Sin Chupung-Ryeong lately. See Free vs Mind on that map (game 2 GOM Season 2 ro8) for another example.

I do want to note though that DT is not quite a 'safe' build. If the Terran goes 1 fact CC and blocks the DTs with minimal damage, they are quite a ways ahead especially if it was a drop. See Flash vs Bisu on Andromeda for details on this. Basically if the Terran doesn't make a major mistake it's virtually impossible for the Protoss to pull through.

In PvZ there is the strategy of dropping DTs in their base when you attack. The FPvod of Savior vs Bisu on Reverse Temple illustrates this beautifully (he looks and sees all his main drones dead)

Also, some of your conclusions are also too absolute and may give misleading ideas:

i,e

All because he neglected to scout properly.

This shows once more than relying solely on corsairs to scout is a terrible idea, for by the time they come out doom may already be knocking at your door.


The Savior game is a smart, one time move, and not something where you blame Bisu for not scouting but instead praise Savior. The July game just highlights the nature of modern PvZ: Protoss does not have luxury of scouting beyond very early game if the Zerg wants to deny it with speedlings and that it is possible to perfectly time a hydra push to finish the game before any DTs can emerge. Scouting is not always the answer to everything; game sense is needed to push beyond natural barriers sometimes.


+ Show Spoiler [Vods] +


Flash vs Bisu
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash

Horang2 vs Flash
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10601_Flash_vs_Horang2

Anytime vs iloveoov
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/4022_Anytime_vs_iloveoov
Liquipedia
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
January 12 2009 01:49 GMT
#21
Nice article about Dark Templars. They are the coolest unit indeed.

I have a comment to make though. I think you should have added more information about the weaknesses of a DT build. It requires A LOT of gas and if you do something like a fast DT drop, you would need to wait for a short while of gas mining before being able to build more dragoons, upgrade range, get observers, get high templars, research storm, etc. So try not to make it sound easy when you say "oh, the advantage of doing a dt drop is that you could get quick observers after that (lol, where does all the gas come from?)" So, just beware of how much gas DTs would cost you in addition to having to build dragoons.
Brood War loyalist
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 01:50:47
January 12 2009 01:50 GMT
#22
i'm amazed (P)LuCifer isn't mentioned..

all the guy does is go DT"s...
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 02:17 GMT
#23
On January 12 2009 10:44 Ver wrote:
This is pretty good, nice job. Here's a few suggestions to make it more complete:

Proxy gate DT PvT: It is so powerful (although quite risky) that it can beat 2 fact vulture if the Terran researches speed on their first fact instead of mines. From a Terran's POV, it's just plain unfair. See Anytime vs iloveoov on R-Point against 2 fact vult and Horang2 vs Flash on Byzantium 2 against FD. It is quite a bit different from 1 base DT that it deserves its own mention (imo underused build for how good it is).

I wanted to mention such a game but couldn't find any. Thanks.

Another option is the 1 gate DT -> expand -> arbiter build PvT. This is particularly strong on maps without a buildable center like Medusa, although Protoss have been using it fairly often on Sin Chupung-Ryeong lately. See Free vs Mind on that map (game 2 GOM Season 2 ro8) for another example.

I've never seen this before. Will take a look.

I do want to note though that DT is not quite a 'safe' build. If the Terran goes 1 fact CC and blocks the DTs with minimal damage, they are quite a ways ahead especially if it was a drop. See Flash vs Bisu on Andromeda for details on this. Basically if the Terran doesn't make a major mistake it's virtually impossible for the Protoss to pull through.

In PvZ there is the strategy of dropping DTs in their base when you attack. The FPvod of Savior vs Bisu on Reverse Temple illustrates this beautifully (he looks and sees all his main drones dead)

Would that work nowadays?

Also, some of your conclusions are also too absolute and may give misleading ideas:

i,e

Show nested quote +
All because he neglected to scout properly.

Show nested quote +
This shows once more than relying solely on corsairs to scout is a terrible idea, for by the time they come out doom may already be knocking at your door.


The Savior game is a smart, one time move, and not something where you blame Bisu for not scouting but instead praise Savior.

Praise Savior indeed but that's scoutable. Not scouting that spot on Blue Storm is a major (yet common) blunder.

The July game just highlights the nature of modern PvZ: Protoss does not have luxury of scouting beyond very early game if the Zerg wants to deny it with speedlings and that it is possible to perfectly time a hydra push to finish the game before any DTs can emerge. Scouting is not always the answer to everything; game sense is needed to push beyond natural barriers sometimes.

It seems to me that sending a zealot to scout later on remains an option. And if the zealot doesn't make it through, that's a signal to be extra careful and cannon up.

+ Show Spoiler [Vods] +


Flash vs Bisu
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash

Horang2 vs Flash
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10601_Flash_vs_Horang2

Anytime vs iloveoov
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/4022_Anytime_vs_iloveoov

I'll take a look at these.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 02:39:39
January 12 2009 02:19 GMT
#24
On January 12 2009 10:49 meegrean wrote:
Nice article about Dark Templars. They are the coolest unit indeed.

I have a comment to make though. I think you should have added more information about the weaknesses of a DT build. It requires A LOT of gas and if you do something like a fast DT drop, you would need to wait for a short while of gas mining before being able to build more dragoons, upgrade range, get observers, get high templars, research storm, etc. So try not to make it sound easy when you say "oh, the advantage of doing a dt drop is that you could get quick observers after that (lol, where does all the gas come from?)" So, just beware of how much gas DTs would cost you in addition to having to build dragoons.

True, I never mentioned it explicitly. That being said, it's "standard" to expo right after the units come out so you have a second gas before long.

Edit: I added the mention first thing in the article.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 17:24 GMT
#25
By popular demand I have added two more sections and five more games:

Proxy gateways variants:
2008/12/06 2008 MBCGame Season 3 Survivor Tournament Flash vs Horang2 on Byzantium 2
2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 IefNaij vs HoRRor Set 2 on Azalea
2005/10/28 2005 So1 OnGameNet StarLeague Ro4 Anytime vs iloveoov Set 1 on R-Point

Late game abuse:
2009/01/11 Liquibition Ep. 26 IefNaij vs HoRRor Set 1 on Andromeda
2009/01/04 GomTV Avaratec-Intel Classic Season 2 Ro8 Flash vs Bisu Set 3 on Destination

I have also amended the text to clarify certain things, like issues with gas, expanding, and scouting. In total that means about 30% more contents.

Thanks to everyone who gave feedback.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
GinNtoniC
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Sweden2945 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 17:40:52
January 12 2009 17:39 GMT
#26
I appluade the guide, but at the sime time I frown at it.
The two words DT and abuse in the same sentence just makes me think of frustrating games where worse players have cheesed me for a quick win.

no disrespect!
I'm just weary about encouraging people to abuse dark templars more than they already are :S
Huge fan of JulyZerg, HonestTea and that guy Kim Taek Yong.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-12 17:46:42
January 12 2009 17:45 GMT
#27
Nice guide, though I sense more freewins for T users on iccup from bad DT protosses with no mechanics and wannabe DT users ;l

Huge part we all know of the DT usage is being able to gain the advantage and then have the mechanics and macro to take your initial advantage to the win.
Sup
kawoq
Profile Joined November 2005
Guatemala357 Posts
January 12 2009 18:49 GMT
#28
as always a really good reading, I will watch the games when I get at home for sure =)

though I agree with avilo, most tosses dont have the mechanics and macro to take full advantage of them..

I wonder if you will ever make a player's games analisys, like those you can find in the Sense of the Star blog... I think you will have what is requiered for that...
"It is not a shameful thing to be unable to reach the goal. It's becoming afraid and running away, even before considering the fact that the road is long and rough, that is truly cowardly." by - Lim Yo Hwan aka SlayerS_Boxer from "Crazy as me"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42486 Posts
January 12 2009 18:51 GMT
#29
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 12 2009 19:35 GMT
#30
On January 13 2009 02:45 avilo wrote:
Nice guide, though I sense more freewins for T users on iccup from bad DT protosses with no mechanics and wannabe DT users ;l

Huge part we all know of the DT usage is being able to gain the advantage and then have the mechanics and macro to take your initial advantage to the win.

Agreed. If you can't get the build right and your first dark templars in under 5 minutes you're toast. And if they don't cripple the opponent you must know and be able to execute the follow-up.

On January 13 2009 03:49 kawoq wrote:
I wonder if you will ever make a player's games analisys, like those you can find in the Sense of the Star blog... I think you will have what is requiered for that...

I'm afraid not. I'm a living programing database alright, but only for games. I don't know enough about the surrounding culture to produce this sort of things without tremendous research.

On January 13 2009 03:51 Kwark wrote:
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

You're very welcome to write your own guide indeed. We'd like to know what's your take on this.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.

This is because we occidentals think very differently from orientals. This guide shows that they too can be abused even at S-class programer level, but it takes a different kind of tricks, and of course flawless execution or you're dead. Especially a pro level, they play so carefully that they won't take whatever bait you throw at them, so no they won't chase your dt with their first observer.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
January 12 2009 19:40 GMT
#31
AHAHAHHAHAH AHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
time to get that olympic level on Iccup ;D

i kid i kid
cw)minsean(ru
TaP.Nuada
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States428 Posts
January 12 2009 20:51 GMT
#32
On January 13 2009 03:51 Kwark wrote:
If you want I'll write a PvP section for this. I've been meaning to write a dt abuse thing for a while. I got B+ on icc without using reavers in PvP so I'd like to think my dark use is pretty damn sexy. By kind of dark play doesn't appear in high level vods because quite frankly it's inefficient and not as good as the regular PvP openings so most straightup players don't have the first idea how to use darks and just write them off. If you know the tricks, mind games, exploits etc to make the most out of your dark tech then you can hold your own at the highest foreigner levels with it as an opening.

That said, having tried my shit against top koreans on icc I confess there does reach a point where they know exactly what you're doing and just don't play along. Against a foreigner you can be like "dance fool!! I AM THE PUPPETMASTER!!!!" as you lead his first ob away and start sniping his probes with a dark you hid earlier whereas against a pro they go "he's showing me a dark then running away, why would he do that, it's a pointless move that'll just lead me trying to chase down and kill it, why does he want me to move my first ob away" and then I get owned.

DT's are the shit pvp, IMO.

My favorite opening is to fast dt, then expand with cannons/storm. Play aggressive when storm/zeal speed finish. And storm/dt drop once your robo is up.

late game dt drops pvp can be quite good, also. You can usually destroy some tech if not a nexus
http://binarybeast.com/ Free Tournament Hosting!
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
January 12 2009 23:09 GMT
#33
very nice guide. Almost makes the dt's seem a bit TOO overpowered :D
Yaqoob
Profile Blog Joined March 2005
Canada3321 Posts
January 13 2009 01:41 GMT
#34
Amazing guide. I like to rush DT's in PvT and PvP and I've seen most of those VODs but I am going to watch most of them again and read this whole guide so I can learn the different build timings.
김택용 Fighting!
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-18 20:01:13
January 18 2009 00:18 GMT
#35
On January 13 2009 10:41 Yaqoob wrote:
Amazing guide. I like to rush DT's in PvT and PvP and I've seen most of those VODs but I am going to watch most of them again and read this whole guide so I can learn the different build timings.

Don't miss the Fenix vs Squall Ascension VOD then! I've just added it:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1329217732/bclid1330313848/bctid1330343472
I thought it was lost forever but Sonovbob just unearthed this in some other thread I had made. That game features the single most amazing dt ever...

Edit: I also just added:
2008/05/17 2008 Razer TSL Ro8 (P)(pl)Draco vs (P)(ua)White-Ra Set 1 on Othello, which features a more standard race against a fast observer build.
And this game:
2008/05/10 2008 Razer TSL Ro16 (P)(it)ClouD vs (P)(ca)IefNaij Set 1 on Wuthering Heights, an interesting game plan variation of the two gateways range build.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Sosha
Profile Joined August 2004
United States749 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-25 09:00:36
February 25 2009 08:59 GMT
#36
Just viewing a couple of games so far, and after watching the
(T)Flash v (P)Horang2
and i dont wanna seem crazy - but I think some credit's due to horang that game. He played quite spectacularly. Even though his intial build was foud out, he stilled managed good control w/ his 1st units, sacrificing zeals when he needed to, to get his DT's in - as well as managing them inside flashs base, until he eventualy got enough units there ( while also targetting specific buildings to make flash lose hope ).

so ya..
it was a pretty gg.
GL
Tranquility through fluid Motion. GlowBabyGlow.
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10826 Posts
February 25 2009 09:08 GMT
#37
oh hells no

i need a terran admin to 1984 this topic asap

fakesteve? mani?
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
Centric
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1989 Posts
February 25 2009 09:15 GMT
#38
Wow...great job.
Super serious.
DeathSpank
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1029 Posts
February 25 2009 09:54 GMT
#39
damn dirty dt's....how I hate thee...at least overlords are detectors....
yes.
dibban
Profile Joined July 2008
Sweden1279 Posts
February 25 2009 10:30 GMT
#40
Nice guide! Looks like you put some effort intro it, very nice. :-)
이제동 - 이영호 since '07.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
February 25 2009 10:48 GMT
#41
How can you forget Anytime vs Yellow....
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
February 25 2009 13:41 GMT
#42
i <3 dt's. and nice guide
My. Copy. Is. Here.
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
February 25 2009 21:19 GMT
#43
On February 25 2009 18:08 LosingID8 wrote:
oh hells no

i need a terran admin to 1984 this topic asap

fakesteve? mani?


seriously, and i thought 1a2a3a was bad enough...
deathgodtoss
Profile Joined July 2008
Korea (North)189 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-26 06:31:34
February 26 2009 06:28 GMT
#44
(P)Anytime vs (Z)YellOw was a good replay too ^^;

*edit* sashin toss ftw >_<


[image loading]
god is about as useful as a protoss scout
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6174 Posts
February 26 2009 07:45 GMT
#45
I'm too lazy to read this at all :D
You should use bigger fonts and different colors on titles.
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8090 Posts
February 26 2009 11:18 GMT
#46
Well done good sir you have just made artosis cry
nah really well done, good guide!
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
February 26 2009 11:20 GMT
#47
On February 26 2009 15:28 deathgodtoss wrote:
(P)Anytime vs (Z)YellOw was a good replay too ^^;

yeah, how can he miss that in OP....
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Dewey101
Profile Joined March 2009
France3 Posts
March 24 2009 08:48 GMT
#48
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?
Starcraft Since Yesterday...
Valio
Profile Joined March 2009
Finland77 Posts
March 24 2009 10:08 GMT
#49
veeery nice!
Why are the pirates called pirates? Because they YARRRRrrrr!!
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 18:13 GMT
#50
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
March 04 2010 18:16 GMT
#51
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
March 04 2010 18:40 GMT
#52
On March 05 2010 03:16 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.


And whatever you do, don't randomly force attack on a factory like Movie did against Flash -.-
But what mOnion said. If you can't get scvs, and turrets are dealt with, then get the supply depots.
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
March 04 2010 18:45 GMT
#53
On March 05 2010 03:40 EtherealDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 03:16 mOnion wrote:
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.


And whatever you do, don't randomly force attack on a factory like Movie did against Flash -.-
But what mOnion said. If you can't get scvs, and turrets are dealt with, then get the supply depots.


But if the machine shop is researching it can be a good target depending on your followup.
Hi.
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
March 04 2010 18:45 GMT
#54
On January 12 2009 10:01 naonao wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2009 09:41 Nitrogen wrote:
On January 12 2009 09:35 imBLIND wrote:
why do i get the feeling im gonna be facing DT rushes for a while now..


how is that any different from usual T_T

yeah... in my first 2 PvPs of this iccup season i got DT rushed :/


Only 2?
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
March 04 2010 18:56 GMT
#55
On March 05 2010 03:40 EtherealDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 03:16 mOnion wrote:
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.


And whatever you do, don't randomly force attack on a factory like Movie did against Flash -.-
But what mOnion said. If you can't get scvs, and turrets are dealt with, then get the supply depots.


LOL that game was so disappointing
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 19:03 GMT
#56
lol that game was disappointing. What about instead of fac, the CC?
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
saltywet
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Hong Kong1316 Posts
March 04 2010 19:30 GMT
#57
On March 05 2010 03:16 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.


u can also get the tanks if you decide to follow up with dragoon
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
March 04 2010 19:33 GMT
#58
On March 05 2010 04:30 saltywet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 03:16 mOnion wrote:
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


scv's are still best. you dont target workers cuz they die fast you target them because they're important. you can still kill scv's fast

kill off turrets as they come, and if one gets up in the min line, target supply depots.


u can also get the tanks if you decide to follow up with dragoon


ya and you can get the main if you follow up with an expansion into 6 gate pumping a mixture of zealot/goon/arbiters too.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 19:41 GMT
#59
so thats a yes to CC? Cause recently I've been playing 1. Blood Bath and 2. been going for the fastest DT drop ever like every single game.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
March 04 2010 19:43 GMT
#60
On March 05 2010 04:41 3FFA wrote:
so thats a yes to CC? Cause recently I've been playing 1. Blood Bath and 2. been going for the fastest DT drop ever like every single game.


skip the CC, takes too long, and isnt as important really if you think about it.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Rkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1278 Posts
March 04 2010 20:02 GMT
#61
ha nice guide. I love DTs and my friends hate them, so even more abuse with them is that much better
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 20:20 GMT
#62
On March 05 2010 05:02 Rkie wrote:
ha nice guide. I love DTs and my friends hate them, so even more abuse with them is that much better


O ya! DT is ultimate just like this guide!
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-04 20:29:15
March 04 2010 20:28 GMT
#63
On March 05 2010 03:13 3FFA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2009 17:48 Dewey101 wrote:
Bump for a great Guide...

Question : In PvT, since the SCV don't die with 1 hit, what's the best thing to aim whit DT ?

can this please be answered? I was just wondering this myself and found this guide and then found this question. Whats the answer? Great guide that I'm surprised isn't in recommended threads


Possible viable targets for you DT's
1. If its possible, take out scanners/turrets before they are built.
2. Workers are always a good choice.
3. Supply depots are a great way to stall
4. Researching Machine shops/armory
5. Tanks :|
Obviously, you should consider your follow-up to the DT build, and the certain conditions during your DT harassment and choose effectively from there. If you 1 gate dt teched, keeping your DT alive can be pretty important, as it allows you to expand and get your arbiter tech up.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 20:40 GMT
#64
thx for the great answer comeh!
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
March 04 2010 21:11 GMT
#65
this existed!?
lol DTs are so hard to use for me x_x
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Nub4ever
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1981 Posts
March 04 2010 21:27 GMT
#66
I no like this thread
Dota 3hard5me
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
March 04 2010 23:10 GMT
#67
On January 12 2009 09:13 Nitrogen wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +
FUCK DARK TEMPLAR K?


All comes down to this for Terran players kekeke
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
March 04 2010 23:56 GMT
#68
This bump is gonna make a lot of angsty terrans cry <3
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
March 05 2010 00:27 GMT
#69
shhh
make sure artosis doesn't find this thread ;D

thanks man, i really wanted to learn how to properly utilize dts, since i never can ^^;
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
March 05 2010 03:14 GMT
#70
I usually do 2 gate into dt drop. Is this good? I play D if that's important.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 17:15:17
March 05 2010 17:08 GMT
#71
On March 05 2010 12:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
I usually do 2 gate into dt drop. Is this good? I play D if that's important.

I usually do 1 gate-> DT drop which gets there just in time. 2 gate may or may not work. I haven't tried that yet. All I know is 1gate works incredibly well.

edit: I am so glad I bumped this [image loading]
edit: says yes in OP
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Murderotica
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Vatican City State2594 Posts
March 05 2010 17:24 GMT
#72
On March 05 2010 04:43 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 04:41 3FFA wrote:
so thats a yes to CC? Cause recently I've been playing 1. Blood Bath and 2. been going for the fastest DT drop ever like every single game.


skip the CC, takes too long, and isnt as important really if you think about it.

Easy to repair in a timely manner due to its large HP.
ǝsnoɥ ssɐlƃ ɐ uı sǝuoʇs ʍoɹɥʇ ʇ,uop || sıʇɹoɟ ɹǝdɯǝs
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 05 2010 20:40 GMT
#73
On March 06 2010 02:24 Murderotica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 04:43 mOnion wrote:
On March 05 2010 04:41 3FFA wrote:
so thats a yes to CC? Cause recently I've been playing 1. Blood Bath and 2. been going for the fastest DT drop ever like every single game.


skip the CC, takes too long, and isnt as important really if you think about it.

Easy to repair in a timely manner due to its large HP.

not if u have ur DT pwn all scvs that repair.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Dizigen
Profile Joined December 2007
Canada28 Posts
March 05 2010 21:01 GMT
#74
bump
dts are awesome because they're the wild cards even in professional sc;
the announcers always yell "YAAAAH TAKU TAKU" followed by the tanks and workers blowing up.
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 23:06:02
March 05 2010 23:04 GMT
#75
On March 06 2010 06:01 Dizigen wrote:
bump
dts are awesome because they're the wild cards even in professional sc;
the announcers always yell "YAAAAH TAKU TAKU" followed by the tanks and workers blowing up.

there was a bump besides my GIANT bump?!? Ya that is really hilarious(not meant to make fun of koreans!).

edit: I'm surprised this awesome guide isn't in recommended threads though.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
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