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On September 15 2008 06:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
its hard for me to find an analogy to this, because other non-sports games the physical side of it is entirely accessible to the wide population. ie i can move the pieces just as well as a grand master. exporting this to chess would be that a really good player's pawns somehow can move two spaces instead of the usual one, allowing them strategies and openings that i can understand but can never execute.
The comparison with Chess (or Go, or Shogi, whatever) still holds in blitz games. Most people can play a half-decent game of chess, but collapse if they have to play it within 60 seconds.
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On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency.
how can someone not agree with this?
btw...
what does many ppl think strategy is?
A big all in?an unexpected cheese? high grounds? drops over drops over drops?
at a korean pro level, strategy is more of a psichology warfare ,but some guys are just too biased too accept such evolution level.
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On September 15 2008 09:13 Oddysay wrote:first of all sorry for my bad english . honestly after watch replay from foreigner and the spirit vod foreigner vs pro gamer . most of the foreigner are NOT playing that smart , people alway say foreigner are slow but they play realy smart . sorry but that just stupid , in many game they just do stupid shit or dont fucking know what they are doing . i mean some of them do mistake worst that me ( im only b+ player ) in fact korean play way more smart that most foreigner . and yes artosis right about what he say , seriously you can watch some foreigner replay and they never did the same build order , most of them got like 10 build order for every matchup , sorry but again that realy stupid , how you can pratice that much build order ? what you think you are doing? korean pratice the most know and good build order over and over and become better . also top foreigner got worst mechanics that the B team pro gamer player . foreigner need : 1- keep 1-2 bo each matchup max and mass pratice them , again and again . 2- try to think , about what you are doing plz , stop think you are playing so smart , you are not. 3- pratice your apm , you will never become good using 100-150 apm 4- starcraft = all about mechanics now , if you dont agree look how boxer suck now . he played smart and got owned . 5- reduce your ego , you suck at starcraft , you are nothing . seriously that crazy how many top foreigner think they are some hot shit ect . sorry for sound bm here , but that realy what i think  still hope that some foreigner will do well in korea one day again , im keeping my hope up .
I sort of agree (read my earlier post), especially for the basics. But the foreigners being inconsistent and creative is also a precious asset. Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Foreigners can play very entertaining games because they come up with creative strategies all the time, and that can catch even a pro with his pants down.
Foreigners have a lot to learn from Korean pros, but the converse is also true. Koreans, facing a devastating strategy, tend to lose slowly but surely again and again, and again, until someone, seasons later, finally decides to try something new (think UpMagic's cloaked wraiths vs Carriers on Katrina, or July's hydra push against Bisu's corsairs+dt build on Blue Storm, or Flash's crazy firebat rush against Jaedong's tentative fast mutalisk build on Colosseum, or Bisu's answer to pre-2007 Protoss' loser PvZ). Foreigners would never allow such losing streaks lying down; they would more eagerly look for a counter, even if that means collapsing more rapidly in the event of failure.
Now, if foreigners could channel this asset instead of playing nearly random, they would become a serious challenge to progamers. The Spirit VODs are proof enough of that.
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On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception.
Are you joking?
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I really like Artosis' insight and think it will produce really nice quality discussion as it already has. For me, I do believe that mechanics will give you a better advantage than solid strategy. You can only get so far with cheese or innovative strategy - in the end you'll have a skill ceiling and people will find out your strategies, etc. Solid strategy of course may grant you wins against people way better than you, however it is much less consistent. Mechanics will give you the consistency to pull off new strategies and be efficient and play strong.
A few questions I have, however. Although players like NaDa have 400+ APM, why do these types of players begin to slump? There hasn't been any significant drops in their APM, so why do they start doing worse? They are still training very hard, so do they just stop adapting?
My other question is how to practice. iCCup doesn't really grant the ability to practice one build vs one build over and over, and clanmates don't have so much time to do so (and they'll find it boring). Every game on iCCup generally features a different build, so it's very hard to train like the Koreans imo at my level and below.
Thanks for the insight Artosis, I really like the discussion this is generating as well 
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On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency. how can someone not agree with this?
Easy: realize the guy argues against himself. The examples he mentions are paradigm changes in strategy, not mechanics (especially Bisu). Besides, none of these rose to become a champion by copying someone else's mechanics, but inventing their own, therefore the whole argument is irrelevant.
And yes, I myself do hope macro matters less in SC2, and strategy/tactics/micro more. Yet no, I don't think it will advantage the average guys, but the smarter and more creative ones. By the way, this very argument's utter lameness (ph34r d4 n00b!!!!!!!) makes me cringe every time I see it.
You did mean this as a question... right?
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On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking?
Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious.
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United States20661 Posts
On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious.
ya cause all those yellow people look the same and act the same amirite
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have you ever read the story :
the wolf and the lamb?
its conclusion applies to this discussion
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On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious.
And are you a troll or just a colossal retard?
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On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. And are you a troll or just a colossal retard?
Tell that to the author of this book:
The Geography of Thought : How Asians and Westerners Think Differently...and Why
And if you don't get more polite I'm reporting you to admins.
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On September 15 2008 09:52 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. ya cause all those yellow people look the same and act the same amirite
I meant no such thing.
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I think the biggest problem is what people consider strategy and mechanics...
I think what most koreans would think of as mechanics differs quite vastly from what foreigners think of strategy. For a foreigner, strategy involves the build order, placement of units, timing, etc. probably. For a Korean, I would assume that strategy would involve...nothing? The thing is that Artosis is saying that a Korean progamer will practice a single build over and over against various opponents and builds until everything about that single build order is clear to him. Strategy implies some sort of thinking and placement and battle of wits. To a Korean, he sees a DT rush, he automatically alters his build to what he has practiced to be the most efficient counter. This isn't strategy to him, this is mechanics. He simply is shifting his mechanics to another pre-practiced mode. Foreigners practice flanking. To Korean progamers flanking is simply a mechanic you do. Forgetting to do it isn't a failure of strategy but a failure of mechanics.
Foreigners see this game as a mind game of strategy where they have to think on their feet. Koreans see this game as something where they are just simply executing what they have been working on. Build orders, counters, flanking, timing. This is all mechanical to them. Sure, there is the occasional crazy build order that catches someone off guard the first time. They haven't been able to practice against it yet. A lot of those stunning feats of "strategy" were actually probably mechanics that these gamers practice countless times to the point they know how to get to that point no matter what happens between the beginning and that point. Nal_Ra's stunning strategy to use the Arbiter to recall on an island map? Probably well practiced beforehand against many different strategies, he just executed it. July's 5-pool against Best and Best's subsequent proxy gateway? Probably practiced many times beforehand. Best probably understood well before that a rush build would be likely from July and practiced how he would handle it countless times. We just saw the product of his practice and think "amazing, what an awesome strategy."
If you want to equate this to chess, those chess masters have played so many games, they know your next move based on your previous 5 moves. They have played so much that changing their strategy a little bit doesn't require strategy but rather just natural action.
Btw, Starcraft 2 demos are handed out in Korea like candy...my relatives got like 8 copies of the demo(although, you need a good reason to get a copy). They have a jump on the gun a bit, I wouldn't say foreigners have too much help there.
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the autor of the book is a biased troll who feels bad with the faact that asians have qi 8% higher
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On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency. how can someone not agree with this?
Starcraft 2 must make sure that longevity is also tied to strategy. You know, like chess. I can watch "replays" of chess grandmasters and still not play as well as they do. The argument can go the other way too.
We already have a massive focus on mechanics in Warcraft 2, and more recently also in Starcraft 1 (which is what this thread is about), although SC1 started off being different (fortunately).
I don't want SC2 to go down that WC2 path too, so Blizzard needs to innovate, needs to improve upon the current SC model.
Will SC2 be a sport if it's again exactly like SC1 with the exact same (ridiculously high) mechanical requirements? Probably, yes. Will it be a strategy game? No.
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Thanks Artosis. I've been thinking this for a while. Which is why I have made numerous threads asking for particular build orders. Unfortunately Im usually told build orders are not too important, not to be too frigid. Its bloody hard to find any concrete build orders on tl.net, and im too lazy to skim through replays to find them. Shouldn't we gather all the build orders together [with a brief synopsis on their purpose] and post it somewhere in the strategy section? It would ease new players into Starcraft so much easier.
Obviously that will only go so far, but its a start.
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10387 Posts
On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do,
This has got to be the stupidest thing i've seen in a long time. You realize that those asians you call conservative and standard are responsible for a good share of innovations and discoveries in many different fields?
You're implying that the majority of all non-asians AREN'T conservative and standard. Is it supposedly that every single white guy is a non-conformist radical that constantly thinks of awesomely new ways to do things? If anything, that statement can be used as a blanket description of the entire human race, not just koreans.
Just because some guy wrote a book doesn't make it automatically true. Just look at all those political books out there, and how much bullshit is clogged into them.
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On September 15 2008 10:24 Ki_Do wrote:
the autor of the book is a biased troll who feels bad with the faact that asians have qi 8% higher
I'm Korean.
Putting that fact aside, over 90% of the people on this forum have an IQ at least 8% higher than you.
What does that make you?
On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious.
Germans are evil
Americans are fat
British have bad teeth
An Australian's best friend a kangaroo
I know English and I took German in school.
Trust me, I am also serious.
Then again, my knowledge is nothing compared to the wise 10-year-old from Canada.
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Yes I am arguing against both sides.
Yes I think both sides are stupid.
Yes I am a Korean who lived in Korea and immigrated to the States.
Yes I have experienced and remember both cultures and their people.
Yes there are retards and geniuses in both cultures.
No learning Japanese doesn't give you amazing insight into an entire ethnicity and culture.
No Asians aren't smarter. Jews might be. (And yes that is also sarcasm. No race is superior to the other.)
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I'm Korean. Putting that fact aside, over 90% of the people on this forum have an IQ at least 8% higher than you. What does that make you?
dont blame me for the author of a book that says asians are predictable, he might be jealous and biased, not me
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EPT
