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On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:
A big all in?an unexpected cheese? high grounds? drops over drops over drops?
at a korean pro level, strategy is more of a psichology warfare ,but some guys are just too biased too accept such evolution level.
Strategy is prepared builds for that specific match, ex. bisu vs. savior final, ex. flash vs. stork in GSI and then the other one in bacchus OSL where he doesn't dual armory or flash vs. jaedong with 2hatch muta. Playing standard is a strategy too, it's just not a creative one and it's not designed to target your specific opponent's weaknesses. But it's standard for a reason.
Basically build orders/timings combined with decision making, adapting your build on the fly and also figuring out what your opponent is doing based on limited scouting information.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On September 15 2008 10:24 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency. how can someone not agree with this? Starcraft 2 must make sure that longevity is also tied to strategy. You know, like chess. I can watch "replays" of chess grandmasters and still not play as well as they do. The argument can go the other way too. We already have a massive focus on mechanics in Warcraft 2, and more recently also in Starcraft 1 (which is what this thread is about), although SC1 started off being different (fortunately). I don't want SC2 to go down that WC2 path too, so Blizzard needs to innovate, needs to improve upon the current SC model. Will SC2 be a sport if it's again exactly like SC1 with the exact same (ridiculously high) mechanical requirements? Probably, yes. Will it be a strategy game? No.
i disagree. i hope they don't make SC2 like chess, because chess, to be honest, is horrifically boring to watch. strategy in general is boring as fuck. if they want a game as an esport, they better focus on mechanics, because fans like to watch things they cannot do. they like to be amazed. they like to see things that make their jaw drop, something that only the best can do. knowing the timing of a 3 hatch zvt build isn't going to impress someone, muta micro is. large numbers of units being produced is (when only a few people can produce lots of units, not everyone due to MBS).
thats why more pure "strategy" games fail as an esport--they are just not interesting enough nor appealing enough to the casual fan. if everyone could jump 40 inches and dunk a basketball nobody would watch the NBA. nobody is like "wow what a great defensive scheme that team had! they really out-thought their opponents!"
if they want to make esports mainstream, starcraft 1's model of mechanics first is the way to go. thats where you can get the most player separation and skill differentiation.
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On September 14 2008 19:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play 
waiting for sc2 now :p I hear ya
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On September 15 2008 10:02 onepost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. And are you a troll or just a colossal retard? And if you don't get more polite I'm reporting you to admins.
lol! 10 year old reporting the case, the admins are going to spank his ass with a cucumber.
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On September 15 2008 10:43 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do,
This has got to be the stupidest thing i've seen in a long time. You realize that those asians you call conservative and standard are responsible for a good share of innovations and discoveries in many different fields? You're implying that the majority of all non-asians AREN'T conservative and standard. Is it supposedly that every single white guy is a non-conformist radical that constantly thinks of awesomely new ways to do things? If anything, that statement can be used as a blanket description of the entire human race, not just koreans. Just because some guy wrote a book doesn't make it automatically true. Just look at all those political books out there, and how much bullshit is clogged into them.
Quit your barking please... and quit making me say things I have neither written nor meant.
Overall, people in Asia are more socially harmonious than in the West. The individual matters less than the group. In countries such as China and North Korea, Human Rights and critical thinking are nearly foreign concepts. The caste system endures to this day in India. Even in Japan, a very liberal nation, modernism only awkwardly coexists with deeply rooted traditionalism. All of these are grounded facts. I challenge you to open any Asian history or sociology book, any Asian newspaper, any comparative study between the West and the East; it will strike you in the face.
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On September 15 2008 10:59 Ki_Do wrote:Show nested quote +the author of the book is a troll who feels bad with the faact I'm Korean. Putting that fact aside, over 90% of the people on this forum have an IQ at least 8% higher than you. What does that make you? dont blame me for the author of a book that says asians are predictable, he might be jealous and biased, not me
Actually, the author doesn't mention predictability; this is my own opinion. It sort of follows from conservatism though.
That proves you haven't read the book. How about you spit only on what you know?
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How about you spit only on what you know?
why dont u do that too and leave a starcraft forum?
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On September 15 2008 11:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 10:24 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency. how can someone not agree with this? Starcraft 2 must make sure that longevity is also tied to strategy. You know, like chess. I can watch "replays" of chess grandmasters and still not play as well as they do. The argument can go the other way too. We already have a massive focus on mechanics in Warcraft 2, and more recently also in Starcraft 1 (which is what this thread is about), although SC1 started off being different (fortunately). I don't want SC2 to go down that WC2 path too, so Blizzard needs to innovate, needs to improve upon the current SC model. Will SC2 be a sport if it's again exactly like SC1 with the exact same (ridiculously high) mechanical requirements? Probably, yes. Will it be a strategy game? No. i disagree. i hope they don't make SC2 like chess, because chess, to be honest, is horrifically boring to watch. strategy in general is boring as fuck. if they want a game as an esport, they better focus on mechanics, because fans like to watch things they cannot do. they like to be amazed. they like to see things that make their jaw drop, something that only the best can do. knowing the timing of a 3 hatch zvt build isn't going to impress someone, muta micro is. large numbers of units being produced is (when only a few people can produce lots of units, not everyone due to MBS). thats why more pure "strategy" games fail as an esport--they are just not interesting enough nor appealing enough to the casual fan. if everyone could jump 40 inches and dunk a basketball nobody would watch the NBA. nobody is like "wow what a great defensive scheme that team had! they really out-thought their opponents!" if they want to make esports mainstream, starcraft 1's model of mechanics first is the way to go. thats where you can get the most player separation and skill differentiation.
well out-thinking is certainly pretty fucking interesting too though
SlayerS_Boxer 3xbunker rush rofl
Yellow was probably like "oh shit i bet he's not gonna do that again twice in a row"
next game "okay he's DEFINITELY not doing that three times"
I love Yellow though<3, my 2nd favorite zerg.
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On September 15 2008 11:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 10:24 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On September 15 2008 09:26 Ki_Do wrote:On September 15 2008 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +thus, when people are like "i hope strategy plays a bigger part in SC2" what they are essentially saying is "i want a playing field where the average guy can excel."
i actually want the opposite. i want a game that there are strong strategy elements but the baseline skill indicator is a heavy dose of mechanics. that's what will make the game last a long time in esports and thats what makes the skill differentiation wide. that's what makes it a true sport and not checkers.
all the difficult and great strategies in starcraft are made possible by superior mechanics anyway (see bisu, defiler control, sk terran, etc), not by someone who thinks better than his opponent. you can think like nada just by watching and mimicking his replays, you can't ever play like him though. thats why it doesn't matter how much you try to copy him. i hope this type of "can copy strategically, can't copy mechanically" aspect remains in SC2, because you just CAN'T consistently outstrategize someone every time. innovation only works once, and after that everyone's aware and they are just as smart and will beat you. mechanical separation is needed for longevity and consistency. how can someone not agree with this? Starcraft 2 must make sure that longevity is also tied to strategy. You know, like chess. I can watch "replays" of chess grandmasters and still not play as well as they do. The argument can go the other way too. We already have a massive focus on mechanics in Warcraft 2, and more recently also in Starcraft 1 (which is what this thread is about), although SC1 started off being different (fortunately). I don't want SC2 to go down that WC2 path too, so Blizzard needs to innovate, needs to improve upon the current SC model. Will SC2 be a sport if it's again exactly like SC1 with the exact same (ridiculously high) mechanical requirements? Probably, yes. Will it be a strategy game? No. i disagree. i hope they don't make SC2 like chess, because chess, to be honest, is horrifically boring to watch. strategy in general is boring as fuck. if they want a game as an esport, they better focus on mechanics, because fans like to watch things they cannot do. they like to be amazed. they like to see things that make their jaw drop, something that only the best can do. knowing the timing of a 3 hatch zvt build isn't going to impress someone, muta micro is. large numbers of units being produced is (when only a few people can produce lots of units, not everyone due to MBS). thats why more pure "strategy" games fail as an esport--they are just not interesting enough nor appealing enough to the casual fan. if everyone could jump 40 inches and dunk a basketball nobody would watch the NBA. nobody is like "wow what a great defensive scheme that team had! they really out-thought their opponents!" if they want to make esports mainstream, starcraft 1's model of mechanics first is the way to go. thats where you can get the most player separation and skill differentiation.
I agree that SC2 shouldn't look like chess. Now, can't it be both strategy and mechanics? That's where we're trying to get. If all strategy compares to chess, all mechanics compares to Guitar Hero.
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On September 15 2008 11:28 Ki_Do wrote:why dont u do that too and leave a starcraft forum?
I momentarily forgot: don't feed the trolls. I'm sorry guys.
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I have taken out the most relevant information i found.
On September 14 2008 19:14 Artosis wrote:
The Difference between Koreans and Foreigners
or
How to get realllllllllllly good
Foreigners don't practice correctly. They just don't know how. your time would be
better spent doing what aspiring Koreans do. You just don't really
know what that is or how to approach it. Unfortunately there is very
little high level discussion in the foreigner scene. Our scene is the sum of many different countries and languages.
Now when you play a bunch on ICCup and want to improve ranks it is quite important to know what to do when a DT rush has been scouted. But thats not how you become a progamer level player. Not at all. Low level progamers massively practice basic play against each other. There are basic paths on how a game goes.
When you know every in and out of [a given build] then you can truely increase your speed. One of the biggest reasons why progamers are so much faster than foriegners is because they know just what they are going to do. The game is completely mapped out in their mind. So they follow that map as quickly as they can. When you are a player who relies on being clever you simply cannot do that. Sure your APM can go up through hotkey cycling or something like that but that won't really help you as much as what the progamer is doing. Yes you might out think a progamer but he's going to be following a very very solid plan all game very well. He's going to have just about as many units as is possible all the time. His choices in odd situations will almost always be less intelligent than a top foreigner player but he has the extra economy and units to be able to get away with that.
The point of this:
Mechanics are more important than any other aspect of the game currently. The game is getting more and more mapped out. You need to be able to follow that map.
My comments:
I feel like most players outside of asia focus too much on winning. Most sign on iccup and just try to win games... that is how they judge their competency level.
A: OH, you play BW! are you good, whats your iccup rank?
B: Well, I am C- or B+ on my best day.. etc.
Whether you climb iccup due to a BO difference (most likely cheese) and or by winning the 25+ minute game of max pop, max tech slugfesting nothing is worse than playing a game... winning, feeling like you accomplished something, then watching the replay and seeing that your oppenent made so many mistakes (like not expanding never made lurkers, or something) and that you really didnt gain anything by 'winning' that game.
the only advancent in SC comes when you lose, once. losing is instruction. winning means that the other guy phailed to teach you anything. its not very often that players get better by winning. sure, their confidence gets a boost (and SC is ALOT about confidence) but in terms of mechanics and 'how to play', winning usually just makes the player get lazy.
to get better at SC you need a coach, practice partner(s) who are much better than you, better than you, and on par with you. Also, patience and discipline doesn't hurt.
PS Artosis, thank you for all of your hard work playing, commentating and helping to foster a foreign community. Also, I loved your http://www.rtsprofessional.com/ tutorials. What happened to that project?
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On September 15 2008 11:07 YanGpaN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 10:02 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. And are you a troll or just a colossal retard? And if you don't get more polite I'm reporting you to admins. lol! 10 year old reporting the case, the admins are going to spank his ass with a cucumber.
From the TL.net Ten Commandments:
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
[...] But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Trolls will be burned, decapitated and banned. [...]
I'm pretty sure this precludes the following:
On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:
And are you a troll or just a colossal retard?
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1361 Posts
On September 15 2008 11:37 onepost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 11:07 YanGpaN wrote:On September 15 2008 10:02 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. And are you a troll or just a colossal retard? And if you don't get more polite I'm reporting you to admins. lol! 10 year old reporting the case, the admins are going to spank his ass with a cucumber. From the TL.net Ten Commandments: 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE [...] But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Trolls will be burned, decapitated and banned. [...] I'm pretty sure this precludes the following: On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:
I don't see why it would preclude it
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On September 15 2008 11:04 Hot_Bid wrote:
thats why more pure "strategy" games fail as an esport--they are just not interesting enough nor appealing enough to the casual fan. if everyone could jump 40 inches and dunk a basketball nobody would watch the NBA. nobody is like "wow what a great defensive scheme that team had! they really out-thought their opponents!"
if they want to make esports mainstream, starcraft 1's model of mechanics first is the way to go. thats where you can get the most player separation and skill differentiation.
I like how this thread has basically turned into a SC2 MBS thread...
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On September 14 2008 19:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play
totally agree w/op and this post; ]
The thing i think people should pay most attention to is the last big paragraph.. You can be a tricky player(I consider myself one) but unless you truly play all the time and know your solid builds and your counter builds you will almost always lose the majority vs an extremely solid simple player. Its just how the game is now
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On September 15 2008 11:43 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2008 11:37 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 11:07 YanGpaN wrote:On September 15 2008 10:02 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:48 onepost wrote:On September 15 2008 09:42 yoshtodd wrote:On September 15 2008 09:35 onepost wrote:
Koreans (or all Asians, for that matter) are very conservative and standard, thus predictable, in nearly everything they do, and Starcraft is no exception. Are you joking? Not only do I know my thing, I'm even learning Japanese. Yes, I am serious. And are you a troll or just a colossal retard? And if you don't get more polite I'm reporting you to admins. lol! 10 year old reporting the case, the admins are going to spank his ass with a cucumber. From the TL.net Ten Commandments: 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE [...] But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Trolls will be burned, decapitated and banned. [...] I'm pretty sure this precludes the following: On September 15 2008 09:59 yoshtodd wrote:And are you a troll or just a colossal retard? I don't see why it would preclude it
Care to explain why it wouldn't preclude it?
I made a sociological argument why Korean progamers play very precise and standard while foreigners play much looser and wilder. I supported my rather trivial and uncontroversial point of view with sound arguments, which are corroborated by both common sense and about as much documented evidence as the Holocaust. I didn't call anybody names even when provoked.
Now if not liking my point of view or being too lazy to read and understand my posts meets the requirements for a damn good reason to use flame, then I don't see why I or anyone with a brain would bother to post on these forums.
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On September 15 2008 11:53 red.venom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 19:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play totally agree w/op and this post; ] The thing i think people should pay most attention to is the last big paragraph.. You can be a tricky player(I consider myself one) but unless you truly play all the time and know your solid builds and your counter builds you will almost always lose the majority vs an extremely solid simple player. Its just how the game is now
Daniel keeps saying: "Master the basics, folks! The basics!" 
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you're making a lot more than only one post...
and i resent whoever said "australian's best friend is a kangaroo", or something.
there are no kangaroos in the cities!
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Since everyone is talking about chess... the two games interestingly have progressed much in the same way. One of the earliest stars of modern chess, Paul Morphy, had a style that was very flashy (tactical) and he was head and shoulders above everyone else. Over time as the general skill level increased, you saw the emergence of solid defensive styles and slower, positional play. It's like Boxer dazzling everyone in the beginning with his aggressive style, but now the skill level and pool of knowledge has increased such that people no longer lose to pure all out attack. I'm guessing SC2 might go the same way... seeming more "boring" as time goes by and more players rise to become competitors to be the best in the world.
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haha yes paul morphy!
there is a famous game of his where he forces the enemy king all the way forward, until it was on the first rank (behind morphy's pawns), then castles for checkmate!
0-0#
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EPT
