| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
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b0red111
United States48 Posts
What can I do to break past this plateau? I know my game starts to fall off a bit once I have to start controlling my 3rd and 4th expoes. What is the answer to my problem? Is it to mass game? Or is there some UMS map, much like the muta harass trainer that I can use to get better? any advice would be much appreciated. | ||
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DanceCommander
United States1808 Posts
But yea, mass games, UMS maps, and just time in general. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On September 06 2008 12:35 DanceCommander wrote: Don't worry about your APM man... Just play games and get your timings down and work on mechanics in general. It will raise with your experience. But yea, mass games, UMS maps, and just time in general. disagree with mass games obviously you aren't going to improve *very quickly* by blindly mass gaming you will make some improvement, but i find it is more helpful to first know everything you need to do in a game (learn timings^, learn build orders, learn how and when to adapt, work on scouting, etc etc), and then learn, one by one, how to execute each piece. you have to focus practice to improve quickly imo. Watching replays of top foreigners and looking at single aspect of a players game is a good way to pick up tips and get a general feel for the said aspect. dont worry to much about the apm number. there is more than enough stuff for you to do in a game (not even those 350+ pros can do it all), so think of your apm as more of a %, meaning, if you compared your game to a hypothetically perfect game, what % of the tasks did you carry out correctly. | ||
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DanceCommander
United States1808 Posts
On September 06 2008 12:52 alphafuzard wrote: disagree with mass games obviously you aren't going to improve *very quickly* by blindly mass gaming you will make some improvement, but i find it is more helpful to first know everything you need to do in a game (learn timings^, learn build orders, learn how and when to adapt, work on scouting, etc etc), and then learn, one by one, how to execute each piece. you have to focus practice to improve quickly imo. Watching replays of top foreigners and looking at single aspect of a players game is a good way to pick up tips and get a general feel for the said aspect. dont worry to much about the apm number. there is more than enough stuff for you to do in a game (not even those 350+ pros can do it all), so think of your apm as more of a %, meaning, if you compared your game to a hypothetically perfect game, what % of the tasks did you carry out correctly. who "blindly" masses games? Find something to improve on and work on it T_T | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Lurgee
Australia252 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
Basically you should try out different mechanics and get a good feel and you'll eventually break that cap. Mostly hotkeying and then actually using them for what they are ment for helps. You know like only using 2 3 unit hotkeys and the rest for production helps alot. | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
But... APM means nothing if you don't know what to do with all those actions. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
Do you use all your hotkeys? | ||
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
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DanceCommander
United States1808 Posts
On September 06 2008 13:52 Stimpacked wrote: yeah APM can get stagnant in a certain range like me for example my APM when I start playing was 120-150 and then i started playing iccup so it became like 200-220 for a T player its good enough but im only C-/C level and i really sweat during those hard fought games. LOL you sweat? Seriously? | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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TeNken.1
United States226 Posts
On September 06 2008 13:16 Lurgee wrote: If you start spamming your apm a lot, you will find that after a few games, much of that spam actually becomes productive apm. Massgaming, along with a focus on apm will help you to improve your apm quite fast. I agree with this. I found that even by just hotkeying my first depot/barrracks and scouting scv, spamming 124124124124, and continually resetting my rally points at the beginning of every game, it would encourage me to try to keep up that pace throughout the game. I found that where before I would just kind of get lost in the game (and pretty much space out), by spamming I eventually started to apply that additional speed towards more useful actions. Basically it forced me to think about what I was going to do next (and form sort of a "mental queue"). I was able to go from 120 apm to 200+ apm in about three months by doing this. | ||
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b0red111
United States48 Posts
Thanks for all the input though, hopefully I can put the advice to good use. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
when i'm moving around the map or watching things that need my focus without needing my mouse instantly I can take both hands and go 3sX4sX5sX6sX7sX etc. I try and do this as much as I can throughout the game as well as normally just doing the the left handed 33sX44sX55sX macro and mouse to collect recent morphs. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
July said he plays best when his hands are sweating | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
Play vs computer and play as fucking fast as you can, spam everywhere. As many games as you want (I did like 5 or something). It teaches you how fast you really can be and you will get faster. The rules: Keep minerals below 500 and be over 300 apm the whole time (get an apm meter for this). I didn't think it would change very much but I actually raised my APM from 180 to 220-240 :D | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
I do that too when there's a hard match. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
something I do is try to have a short list of 2 or 3 maybe even 4 things you're going to do after you've done your current action so you won't ever find yourself going "hm... what to do now......." | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
That is why pros have so high redundancy, from minute one - if you start off with 400 apm when you actually need 60 at the beginning of the game, it is much easier to turn it into 190 eapm later in the game, as you don't have to change your pace. You just build up more useful actions as the game will require more of them. So yeah, spam is a way to go at first. Just copy a hotkey scheme from a progamer (if you don't have one already) and try produce from hatches only with hotkeys until you have to replace them with units. Than you just have to study the game, know what all you have to do in order to turn your spam into actually useful actions and get your brain used to it. This is when the massgaming comes into play (Clever massgaming though, the ~40% win ratio is a way to go - you can learn from your mistakes yet you don't get steamrolled hardcore every game) and replays and strategy articles when you are starting). Think about these actions how to make more more of them, what your build orders, rally points and hatchery placement in specific situations are going be and what will be your unit hotkey structure, unit placement, battle micro and harrashment and when. As you will play more often, you will have to think about less of these things as they will become automated, when you get to the stage progamers are at. Their subliminal thinking gives them the timing for perfect macro, they regroup their hotkey groups after every battle in a heartbeat, and they know exactly where their production buildings are, and when they have to get to them. This allows them almost completely to focus on strategy, as these basics are for them what movement in the goal is for hockey goalie. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
There's no point in even having the possibility of a banal thing as APM holding you back in games. So my advice is actually to focus on it primarily. Keep it in your head to try to play as fast as you can, think of things that can be done, try to multi-task as much as you can. You will have to play many games tho, because you can only play fast (if you don't count spamming) if you are familiar with what you are doing. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On September 06 2008 14:00 BlackStar wrote: http://77.251.196.241:200/Python_Multitask_Free.scx thx for the map | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
look at the things jaedong is doing all the time, it will give u an idea of how zerg apm plays | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
On September 06 2008 17:50 dream-_- wrote: to be completely honest if you set a meter to beep when you go under 200 apm you will learn fairly quickly how to keep it up. if you think multitasking is a big issue for you do that, and set it high. even if your just spamming it will practice your control, mouse speed, hand speed, and get you used to a high speed environment. There is something to EAPM, much more than APM. But you need a high APM for a good EAPM. So work on that first. Most pro gamers hover around 160-190 EAPM, regardless of their actual APM. EAPM is way more important than APM, because it gives you a much better info on how fast a player is. Not sure about most pros having 160-180 eapm though... In the latest Flash vs Jaedong replay (on Fantasy, cross positions) Jaedong had 236 EAPM (354APM) and Flash, who has just average APM of 310 has 227 EAPM - WayyYyY higher than those 160-190 you're talking about. Didn't check a lot of reps to find that "pro average", but in all I've opened in BWrepinfo, pros have 190+. | ||
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
You shouldn't actively try to raise your APM, it's just something that comes along the more you play and the more experience you get. When you know what to do and when to do it you'll notice how everything starts to go faster. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
Speed is freedom. Freedom to pick any build. Freedom to focus on strategy. Freedom to play the game the way you want to. Speed is a Starcraft player's wings. His pathway to the skies. Without speed, you're a kiwi! | ||
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liquid_team
United States23 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On September 06 2008 20:13 eX-Corgh wrote: EAPM is way more important than APM, because it gives you a much better info on how fast a player is. Not sure about most pros having 160-180 eapm though... In the latest Flash vs Jaedong replay (on Fantasy, cross positions) Jaedong had 236 EAPM (354APM) and Flash, who has just average APM of 310 has 227 EAPM - WayyYyY higher than those 160-190 you're talking about. Didn't check a lot of reps to find that "pro average", but in all I've opened in BWrepinfo, pros have 190+. Well thats extreme example. I'd say the average would be those 190 for important games. | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
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Fad-D
United Kingdom42 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
On September 06 2008 18:23 pyrogenetix wrote: apm comes with experience. it's really difficult to purposely have high apm. something I do is try to have a short list of 2 or 3 maybe even 4 things you're going to do after you've done your current action so you won't ever find yourself going "hm... what to do now......." This is true when i was raising my apm i did it though macro practice to get my mechanics down but most of the time i didn't spend to think about the build i did 1 build for all mu tri hatch into mass zerglings mass expo. Basically you also eventually have to know your builds and reactions by instinct to keep a higher apm without spamming mindlessly. | ||
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Shinrei
United States237 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
http://z15.invisionfree.com/Clan_Art_Forums/index.php?showtopic=26 Basically you need to macro from your 3 bases while you break through terran defences with swarm and lurk-ling in a limited time, and expand at the same time, and defend from harassment as well if you pick the hard version.  In other words i did my best to simulate late game ZvT. | ||
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decker247[DtYt]
United States20 Posts
 but dont worry about apm so much the only thing apm does is ur reaction timing towars things | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Cham
797 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On September 06 2008 19:32 Ki_Do wrote: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YWMFXH53XU look at the things jaedong is doing all the time, it will give u an idea of how zerg apm plays That was awesome, thanks a lot. Watching that makes me envious of Jaedong because he makes it look easy. | ||
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a p p ! e
Canada11 Posts
i have always played with micro intentions foremost with an average of about 340APM in more recent games; this drops with a downwards slope if you analyze the graph on 'flat', and drops substantially as late game nears. in those cases the APM could drop to 270 or less. i have to agree that knowing your next step (to take) through raw experience or an intuition for timing could prevent a lot of these drops in APM, or performance in some regards--i wouldn't doubt it if my eapm turned out to be low 200 or mid 100's it (watching fpvod) simply gives me the idea that macro comes first for many reasons. because atleast you have a new set of units to micro with at the end of a battle ^ ^;; | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On September 06 2008 18:10 Zoler wrote: This is a good way to raise apm: Play vs computer and play as fucking fast as you can, spam everywhere. As many games as you want (I did like 5 or something). It teaches you how fast you really can be and you will get faster. The rules: Keep minerals below 500 and be over 300 apm the whole time (get an apm meter for this). Just keep one hotkey pressed down. Makes your APM go sky high. Then when it becomes a habit your APM while playing will also be off the charts. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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a p p ! e
Canada11 Posts
On September 06 2008 18:10 Zoler wrote: This is a good way to raise apm: Play vs computer and play as fucking fast as you can, spam everywhere. As many games as you want (I did like 5 or something). It teaches you how fast you really can be and you will get faster. The rules: Keep minerals below 500 and be over 300 apm the whole time (get an apm meter for this). I didn't think it would change very much but I actually raised my APM from 180 to 220-240 :D here's where i disagree though there are actions that are given more priority compared to some others that you'll be taking some obvious ones have to do with proper building arrangement and the timing of your tech i've tried that method too, ha ha but it seemed to condition me to forget timings and overlook details. i'm sorry to use myself as an example all the time, and i'll try to look to other ways of expression, lollll . . . i'm sure most of you have your game plans refined and practiced enough to be able to spam for practice and still manage to do everything you want to do (but accomplishing more and more with each game >; ) ) my point is though, i don't recommend this style of practice for newer players, even if it feels fun | ||
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
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yoinkity
Korea (South)43 Posts
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kpcrew
Korea (South)1071 Posts
like use lost temple, put a probe at the top left vs an enemy zealot and see how many probes die before u can make a base and kill a computer. that will get your apm up very high, it takes at least 200 apm to maintain your base and produce units, while moving that one worker around constantly | ||
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TeNken.1
United States226 Posts
On September 07 2008 05:32 EleanorRIgby wrote: i completely disagree with these idiots syaing play vs a comp and spam ur shitter off. This will ONLY improve your spam. 120apm is a plateau for pretty much everyone and it takes awhile to surpass it, the main reason why u cant surpase it yet is because you dont have all the hotkeys etched in your brain and are not use to regular hot keys and frequently using them. Just try and use hotkeys as much as possilbe, that should be your goal not just clicking as fast as u fucking can rofl I agree that mastering the hotkeys is important, but it seems like you don't really understand what I or anyone else was saying about spam. The point isn't to simply to spam all game so you can open up bwchart and jack off to your 300 apm performance - the point is to increase your natural gamespeed so that as you gain more experience you will start applying that additional apm to more useful actions. | ||
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shavingcream66
United States1219 Posts
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CommanderFluffy
Taiwan1059 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On September 07 2008 12:17 TeNken.1 wrote: I agree that mastering the hotkeys is important, but it seems like you don't really understand what I or anyone else was saying about spam. The point isn't to simply to spam all game so you can open up bwchart and jack off to your 300 apm performance - the point is to increase your natural gamespeed so that as you gain more experience you will start applying that additional apm to more useful actions. Spamming doesn't increase your natural gaming speed. I think you miss the point. I think this whole theory is based on accidentally increasing your playing speed by actually focusing on spamming. You should practice what needs to be practiced and single out that and focus on that. Spamming isn't part of that. On September 07 2008 10:35 kpcrew wrote: there are maps that u can use to improve your apm like use lost temple, put a probe at the top left vs an enemy zealot and see how many probes die before u can make a base and kill a computer. I already posted a Python version. But you need to add a computer if you want that. Otherwise you can just 13cc/nexus and max out asap. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On September 06 2008 21:46 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Have a nice read. Speed is freedom. Freedom to pick any build. Freedom to focus on strategy. Freedom to play the game the way you want to. Speed is a Starcraft player's wings. His pathway to the skies. Without speed, you're a kiwi! beautiful. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On September 06 2008 14:00 BlackStar wrote: http://77.251.196.241:200/Python_Multitask_Free.scx I'd just like to say this map is a great way to improve both your multitask ability and your apm ability, in a very NON-artificial way. Play this map until you can kill the pylon with only 1 or 2 scv kills. Is there a version of this map that adds actual CPU opponents to the game? As it is, it's a great way to multitask while practicing your opening BO, but I'd like something to force me to actually micro/macro while multitasking as well. | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
As to the topic, I had a roof around 200 that I just could not pass. Then after a break for a few weeks I came back and had raised my average (as in trying to play good/serious) apm by around 40 and thus in some games having above 200 once in a while. I have no idea why/how this happend. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On September 07 2008 05:32 EleanorRIgby wrote: i completely disagree with these idiots syaing play vs a comp and spam ur shitter off. This will ONLY improve your spam. 120apm is a plateau for pretty much everyone and it takes awhile to surpass it, the main reason why u cant surpase it yet is because you dont have all the hotkeys etched in your brain and are not use to regular hot keys and frequently using them. Just try and use hotkeys as much as possilbe, that should be your goal not just clicking as fast as u fucking can rofl I got from 180 apm to 220 and my macro almost got flawless compared to my macro before? Often when I played before I would get to 1000 mineral middle game and now I cant even go over 300  | ||
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Red.Cloud
Canada235 Posts
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
) with just 120 APM that will be good for you.I believe there's some kind of "economy" of the actions a player can make, trying to just rise your APM means that you end up doing the same things you did before but with more APM, what's the point in that? In this way APM don't represent anymore your multitasking ability, but they become useless. | ||
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=74864  | ||
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
focus on all out macro create a cycle for yourself so once you do something you run back to your buildings and 4z5z6z7z or 1az2az3az for zerg them and when you see the pings on minimap, go back to the same cycle. Rally them to 1 point, hot key them and send them into a TT's front while you take the map and build more zeals. You'll eventually find yourself locked in a cycle of doing this with minor bumps and peaks along the way. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Strategical knowledge + experience > speed. | ||
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Elite]v[arine
United States264 Posts
On September 06 2008 16:20 heyoka wrote: July said he plays best when his hands are sweating thats why he chose the name july. (i read an interview that said so) | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17727 Posts
On September 06 2008 13:56 Equinox_kr wrote: OK this is literally what I did for like a month to make my APM go up. Do NOTHING but macro. Forget about fighting, or even winning for that matter. Just make sure that you are constantly making units, make that the main reason you're playing. And eventually, you can do it faster so you have time for micro + everything else. weird thats excatly what i do/did | ||
zXk3
Mexico1178 Posts
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
On September 08 2008 16:59 zXk3 wrote: APM means nothing really.. i would suggest you to improve your gamesense first, know what the opponent would be doing, and adapt to it beforehand, know and apply some basics, like flanking, macroing, hard counters, and the list goes on.. i have beaten korean dudes with the double APM with my barely 160 APM, sometimes its better to play smart compared to play fast, what im trying to say is, awesome speed with poor knowledge just makes you a fast opponent, good speed with awesome knowledge just makes you a hard opponent, you make your call =D awesome speed and awesome knowledge? but i get your point sometimes if you're too fast you forget some things you're supposed to do or forget your game plan or think any good strategies or whatever... But being fast is also important multitasking requires you to be fast, pushing while expanding while macroing setting new rally points hotkeying etc... But since we're not progamers just focus on winning and APM will slowly follow. | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
On September 08 2008 15:51 G.s)NarutO wrote: In my opinion you should try to raise your brain activity. This is by no means in insult, you need to think quick and your hands will move faster with the time. Its much more important to know how to react on all the things that can happen to you. Strategical knowledge + experience > speed. Aren't you that 400 APM Terran? hehe | ||
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oob
Sweden630 Posts
I play Zerg too. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On September 07 2008 03:34 a p p ! e wrote: here's where i disagree though there are actions that are given more priority compared to some others that you'll be taking some obvious ones have to do with proper building arrangement and the timing of your tech i've tried that method too, ha ha but it seemed to condition me to forget timings and overlook details. i'm sorry to use myself as an example all the time, and i'll try to look to other ways of expression, lollll . . . i'm sure most of you have your game plans refined and practiced enough to be able to spam for practice and still manage to do everything you want to do (but accomplishing more and more with each game >; ) ) my point is though, i don't recommend this style of practice for newer players, even if it feels fun I forgot saying this only works when you are at least D+. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On September 08 2008 00:39 SirGlinG wrote: Don't care so much about your apm. I raised my apm from 80 to your rate, but my skills didn't improve as my apm did, so i can still loose against 70apm dudes. Just play smart and learn more about the game. That's what i didn't do enough. Well, perhaps that was me. I regularely win against people with way higher APM due to tactics and smart thinking. But, for all out there saying do not care about APM, learn the game instead, this is plain wrong. My APM sucks, I play around a 100 (I do not spam). This bad speed sverely limits my play - e.g., I cannot do lurk/ling/scourge/defiler the way it is meant to be (and I'd want it to be), because my hands are simply to slow. Even good flanking is nearly impossible with a 120 supply Z army with my speed. Believe me I know what I would have to do, I just can't. I.e., . IMO, in any RTS game, a base speed is paramount to mastering it. Hence, training playing speed, handspeed, more or less well represented by APM, is by all means important. Those of you telling to ignore APM either don't know enough about Starcraft, or are lucky enough to have been fast enough from the start :-) | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 09 2008 19:34 Metaspace wrote: Well, perhaps that was me. I regularely win against people with way higher APM due to tactics and smart thinking. My APM sucks, I stay between 80 and 100 (I do not spam). On the other hand, my bad speed sverely limits my play - e.g., I cannot do lurk/ling/scourge/defiler the way it is meant to be (and I'd want it to be), because my hands are simply to slow. Even good flanking is nearly impossible with a 120 supply Z army with my speed. Believe me I know what I would have to do, I just can't. I.e., for all out there saying do not care about APM, learn the game instead, this is plain wrong. IMO, in any RTS game, a base speed is paramount to mastering it. Hence, training playing speed, handspeed, more or less well represented by APM, is by all means important. Your hand speed isnt the problem,seems to me youre just lazy. APM really doesnt mean alot, Hell i can do SK with only 170~~~~Anyway what are most of the actions? 60% hotkeys?? really you could cut that down to 20% and be just fine. Best way to "improve" APM : Get Better. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On September 09 2008 19:46 arb wrote: Your hand speed isnt the problem,seems to me youre just lazy. APM really doesnt mean alot, Hell i can do SK with only 170~~~~Anyway what are most of the actions? 60% hotkeys?? really you could cut that down to 20% and be just fine. Best way to "improve" APM : Get Better. Well, I think I have to object here. I do not think I am lazy. I'd desperately want to be better :-) My hotkey percentage is typically around 23%. I play Z, I use 1-4 for units, 5-0 for hatcheries. I use F4 for rally point. I use all these hotkeys in every game. Still, I peak at 100, on good days (enough sleep etc.) 120. Edit: P.S.: it is frustrating when you got the superior army, and waste it due to not being able to cast swarm fast enough, select scourges to kill a vessel, or burrow lurks fast enough :-/ | ||
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
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axel
France385 Posts
I do some training exercises (for terran) on some ums micro map to not be annoyed by comp : i just do F2 1a2a3a4a5a F3 5C6C7V8V9V 0S F2 ( c = tank in french version , V is vulture) F2 is my "atack zone " with virtual groups of units F3 is my factories zone 0 is my scan I do it repetitively I do aswell for tvt , tvz it s thesame but instead of 5c6c7v8v9v i got 5m6m7m8C9v ( C tank , V vessel) and in tvt : 5c6c7G8g9g ( g goliath). Im not sure that it is that useful but it gives some automatisms to switch from making units to attack , only with hotkeys and f2f3f4 | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
Your gameplay will actually worsen over the short term, but eventually moving fast will become second nature and you will be able to stop focusing on APMS and refocus on smart gameplay while the APMs will just stay high in the background. | ||
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