it's as simple as this: there are different schools of play in every MU. This guide is leaned heavily to the defensive one. That doesn't make it less correct, even if you're a fan of the more aggressive styles.

Neither does it make it the best defensive guide either, but it's useless to argue "you should play aggressive, not defensive!" as both ways are obviously effective as both are used on high level play. Mondragon himself argued in his guide (I think it was in there) taht zerg should always avoid attacking the P. While that guide is not adapted to modern zvp the fundamentals of the mu still applies so this should hold true. Arguing that mondragon's play makes no sense is... well that would need more backup than theorycrafting.

StRyKeR

United States1739 Posts

May 26 2008 16:56 GMT

#43

On May 26 2008 06:21 Cloud wrote:
Hm lurks are not so hot against protoss, they melt to storms, they suck vs dragoons, archons have way too many hp for them, protoss units are so fat ass for them to be effective and they need missile upgrades which means 1 more evo, which means less gas/minerals.

Not to mention reavers just make popcorns with lurkers.

LOL, lurkers suck vs. protoss? Have you EVER played a zvp?

Elite]v[arine

United States264 Posts

May 26 2008 17:05 GMT

#44

On May 25 2008 19:42 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
If he appears to be going ground after the initial corsair(s) you upgrade lurkers and make scourges to fend of his corsairs. You might want to get one hydra per choke to fend of the first corsair if he teched very fast and one or both of your scouting overlords got killed by a dragoon. Make sure that you make at least two hydras, which can be morphed into lurkers, in your expansion so that you don't have to walk them there from your main. Also make three lurkers in your.

[/list]
make 3 lurkers in your .....?

alphafuzard

United States1610 Posts

May 26 2008 17:20 GMT

#45

i think ret disagrees with you

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

May 26 2008 17:22 GMT

#46

One can play ZvP without lurkers, and they aren't nearly as essential as they are in ZvT. But to play ZvP without lurkers is like playing PvT without storm - you're really banking a lot on your late game tech.

FastEddieV

United States614 Posts

May 27 2008 22:32 GMT

#47

This is a very cool guide for weaker players like me. Thanks much!

The problem I have in ZvP is figuring out how to beat the 2gate zeal opener, I always find myself barely surviving the onslaught (usually attack comes on my nat, with sunkens just finishing as the zeals come in) and then falling behind when he gets sair/dt for map control before I've been able to upgrade ol speed, drop tech or anything.

b3h47pte

United States1317 Posts

May 27 2008 23:24 GMT

#48

Then lay your hydra den and take your third gas if there's a gayser in your expansion. Finally you upgrade lurkers and expand with your fifth hatchery.

gayser Rofl.
Nice guide

Durak

Canada3685 Posts

May 27 2008 23:48 GMT

#49

On May 28 2008 08:24 b3h47pte wrote:

Show nested quote +

gayser Rofl.
Nice guide

So that he can fix it, it's spelt geyser.

0.2 Mid Game Scouting

There's basicly three different approaches...

It's spelt basically. I didn't read through it thoroughly but those are two to fix.

Thanks a lot for the guide! Of course didn't players have different styles but this is very helpful. There'll never be one 'perfect zerg play' guide so don't let others opinions make you feel like your insight isn't appreciated.

Cheers.

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

May 28 2008 14:58 GMT

#50

Nice guide IMHO, thank you.

Yet another perspective on ZvP, and I like the detailled recipes.

I'd love to see a ZvT, ZvZ guide from you, too!

Quizzms.

United Kingdom8 Posts

May 28 2008 22:15 GMT

#51

As a player who has alot to learn about this game, i found it really good and useful. Praise you sir!

Although i'm not that experienced, from watching replays i think the defensive zerg style seems to be the most stable and reliable way of playing the ZvP matchup, if the P goes cannon FE, which they usually do. Aside from muta harass and all-in hydra push, playing aggressive seems to normally get you killed, just because cannons/storm are so good and cost-efficient at holding zerg armies. But thats just my two cents.

I have a couple of questions though about unit combinations:

- When is it best to go mass hydras?
- When is it best to use pure lurker/ling to lategame?
- When is it best to use hydra/lurker combo?

I like using hydra/lurker combo because i find pure hydras can get owned in midgame, and lurker ling is very hard to control when moving around and attacking/positioning quickly. But i do use it sometimes and find that i can win some games by just holding a long contain and getting 4th/5th expos up before toss gets his 3rd.

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

May 30 2008 07:56 GMT

#52

Mass hydras is only a good option if he hasn't got any templars. I.e if he went sair reaver or if you managed to pick off all of his templars early game. Alternatively if you know that if he moves out you will be able to pick off his templars, the latter would be the case in early game if you're confident in your mutalisk micro and picked that approach to the game.

Pure lurker/ling is a stable approach to the ground based toss (though not the dragoon/reaver one). However, your focus is on the lurkers, not the zerglings. As your opening did not grant you the equal carapace upgrades needed to build your play around the zergling. Hence you need alot of gas - don't be afraid to expand.

Hydra/lurker relies slightly less on upgrades than lurker/ling. However, you really can't afford to lose a group of hydras every time he storms. I think hydras are better defensive units than zerglings. The protoss needs to bring his zealots further into your lurker field to be able to reach them.

I think lurker/ling and hydra/lurker are equally viable vs ground based tosses but plays out slightly different. If he focuses on air units you must go hydralisks though, and get lurkers when he switches to ground - if he do.

ketomai

United States2789 Posts

June 03 2008 05:25 GMT

#53

Enjoyed reading it, thanks a bunch =D!

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

June 03 2008 22:57 GMT

#54

On May 30 2008 16:56 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Mass hydras is only a good option if he hasn't got any templars. I.e if he went sair reaver or if you managed to pick off all of his templars early game. Alternatively if you know that if he moves out you will be able to pick off his templars, the latter would be the case in early game if you're confident in your mutalisk micro and picked that approach to the game.

he won't have any templars if you incorporate queens into your game.

YES THAT'S RIGHT I WENT THERE

misterroboto

Canada27 Posts

June 06 2008 19:56 GMT

#55

Hi, I'm a long time lurker and I've got a few questions to ask.

1) In those build orders do the supply mean the actual supply or the number of drones? The reason why I ask is that, depending on what the opponent does, you'll need a different number of zerglings to defend, so it'll affect the number of overlords needed and the number of drones that are available. i.e. if your opponent goes 2 gate, you just can't have the same number of drones as you would have if he just FE'd. Taking that into consideration, should one continue as recommended in the build order with the exact same supply values listed after he's dispatched the first strike or should he substract the amount of zerglings that he added to defend?

2) in your first two build orders you say that one should expand at 13 or 15 depending whether you know the opponent is FE'ing or not. Your guide states that in a situation of ignorance, one should expand with the 13th drone. That seems rather counter-intuitive to me. You'd want to prepare for an assault in case the opponent is 2 gating so expanding this early would be dangerous, no?

Thanks for the amazing guide, BTW. It helped this newbie a lot!

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

June 06 2008 21:48 GMT

#56

1) None of the build orders mentioned were ment to be used vs anything but a fast expand. Hence you cannot use them against a two gate.

If you still lost some zerglings to zealot harass you can withdraw the lost supply from the build order. However, it doesn't matter much if you build your spire at 29 or 30 supply. Still, if you're closing in to 25 something's probably not right.

2) If you make an hatchery at 13 you'll have 4 larva when your spawning pool finnishes. This mean you can make 8 zerglings to help defend vs a 1-base strategy. However, if you make your hatchery at 15 you'll only have 2 larva, ie 4 zerglings, which leaves you with close to no chance at all vs a 2 gater.

misterroboto

Canada27 Posts

June 06 2008 21:54 GMT

#57

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification. Just one last thing: if a 2 gate is scouted, would it be wiser to put the 3rd hatch in main, natural or at a new expand?

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

June 07 2008 09:39 GMT

#58

If a two gate is scouted you either don't lay the hatchery at all or you cancel it. You'll need the minerals for creeps/sunkens. You might be able to get away with a third hatchery if it's a weak two gate but unless you're able to judge the situation correctly you're better off playing it safe. Though you'd learn more if you lost because of that a few times.

HeavOnEarth

United States7087 Posts

June 08 2008 12:38 GMT

#59

Wow, team liquid is a bandwagon to admin posts o.o;
but then again chill has that effect on people..
+ Show Spoiler +

thread was fun, assured me everything I've been doing thus far is correct, -ish anyways

HeavOnEarth

United States7087 Posts

June 08 2008 12:41 GMT

#60

On June 07 2008 18:39 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
If a two gate is scouted you either don't lay the hatchery at all or you cancel it. You'll need the minerals for creeps/sunkens. You might be able to get away with a third hatchery if it's a weak two gate but unless you're able to judge the situation correctly you're better off playing it safe. Though you'd learn more if you lost because of that a few times.

first time on iccup was like "T_T"