EPTAre corsairs+reavers, DTs+corsairs still good now?
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SiarX
133 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
sair rvr is troll build / semi-island build. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On February 07 2025 13:32 XenOsky wrote: sair dt is still being used. sair rvr is troll build / semi-island build. Why a troll build? | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3490 Posts
On February 08 2025 11:06 Severedevil wrote: Corsair/Reaver can't handle hydras in open spaces. You need a tight map with lots of cliffs and chokes, and preferably island bases. It's also a fragile composition that's very micro-intensive. In the current mappool kickback is a decent sair/reaver map so we saw it played a few times in proleague that way. You need a safe 3rd gas for the composition to work unless you do game ending damage quickly. And as you say, you need good airspace to fly in and out without getting sniped by hydras. I wouldn't call it a troll build, more a very technical map specific one. Edit: also one of the downside of it is that usually it leads to very long split map scenario, unless either player makes a micro mistake | ||
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KrillinFromwales
68 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
Gas is tight, though, especially if you also need corsairs. You'd either have to skip high templar (and likely die to hydra+overlord) or wait until 3-4 gases to get your arbiter. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On February 13 2025 09:18 KrillinFromwales wrote: I think Sair + DT could transition easily into Arbiter because it includes all the previous tech trees. Curiously, one of the American Protoss players went insane (his name was something like Lurker), and ever since he disappeared no one has seen a reason to add Arbiter Tribunal against Zerg. Seriously? Like really insane? | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On February 13 2025 10:28 Severedevil wrote: Arbiters are neat but they cost a ton of gas and they're vulnerable to scourge. If Protoss can protect them from scourge (say, by keeping a 6+ corsair air force) then an arbiter sounds very useful. Cloaking field denies high templar pickoffs and forces Zerg to lose overlords in every fight, while a zealot-heavy recall could trash a Zerg base. Gas is tight, though, especially if you also need corsairs. You'd either have to skip high templar (and likely die to hydra+overlord) or wait until 3-4 gases to get your arbiter. Well, toss builds corsairs anyway, and in late game he has so much gas that he often makes dozen of archons/HTs, so... Besides, zerg definitely would not expect arbiter with patrolling scourges on his base (and even if he did, corsairs can protect) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27000 Posts
On February 13 2025 22:22 SiarX wrote: Well, toss builds corsairs anyway, and in late game he has so much gas that he often makes dozen of archons/HTs, so... Besides, zerg definitely would not expect arbiter with patrolling scourges on his base (and even if he did, corsairs can protect) I guess another part of it is man, it just gets too technical to reliably control some of these comps that are great on paper. I think it’d be fascinating to see some top pros team up and play some archon mode, just to see what could work but maybe is beyond the scope of a single player. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
unplayable on certain maps, so if u do sair/reaver on Fighting Spirit, lets say, youre trolling. | ||
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Jealous
10334 Posts
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iopq
United States1111 Posts
On February 20 2025 11:09 Jealous wrote: Arbiter is not really viable vs. Z at high level, that's all there is to it. That's what people said about DAs vs. Zerg it's too expensive! You need 100 energy for maelstrom! Pros don't do it, so there must be a reason Until, of course, pros figure out how to use it and then it's just a standard strategy vs. muta snipes on Templar | ||
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Jealous
10334 Posts
On February 20 2025 13:42 iopq wrote: That's what people said about DAs vs. Zerg it's too expensive! You need 100 energy for maelstrom! Pros don't do it, so there must be a reason Until, of course, pros figure out how to use it and then it's just a standard strategy vs. muta snipes on Templar The difference is that Arbiters outright die to Scourge whereas there is no equivalent for DA. DA was used in pro games in PvZ about 15 years ago, it's nothing new. Arbiter, on the other hand, requires an even greater investment, with a greater risk, for a lesser pay-off, all coalescing even later in the game. All of this is coming from a person who had tried for a long time to make Arbiters useful in PvZ. In the first-ever live CSL match in the USA, I used Arbiters in a PvZ on HBR to win the game. I'm not just basing this solely on what progamers do or do not do (though, admittedly that is a large part of it and it extends beyond appeal to authority). I'm basing this on the reality of the MU where gas is necessary for Protoss to stay alive and compete with Zerg in the late-game.
You invest 500 gas for a unit that will only come out onto the field after 139s and can do nothing besides cloak units against a race that by then will have Speed Overlords (basically free detection), unless you spend an additional 150 gas to get Stasis which will take another 100+s to be used. And IIRC an Arbiter dies to 3 Scourge which is 37.5 minerals / 112.5 gas and is absurdly faster both to produce and in terms of movement speed (even if it's 4 Scourge, which I doubt, that is still only 50/150 cost to kill a 100/350 unit, 100/300 in Scourge cost if you're going for overkill and want to ensure it is dead when it is parked on top of army). By that point in the game, that gas would have bought you 4+ HT and 8+ storms. If Protoss has that amount of excess gas available to them at this point in the game, they are either trash and will lose or they were already going to win anyway. ETA: Plague also brings down the Scourge count to 2 IIRC, and allows for detection even if Overlords were somehow sniped by Corsair or whatever (and maintaining a healthy Corsair count is basically a prerequisite for Arbiters to be even remotely viable at the high level, I am quite certain). This is what separates Arbiter from DA. The timing is too late, it does not address any significant weakness Protoss has at that stage of the game (like Muta sniping HT does for mid-game PvZ; one could make the argument that it would help circumvent the defenses of an entrenched Zerg with Spore/Sunk/Lurker defense at the front of their base but that meta is basically dead and buried at this point), it relies on having an abundance of a different unit to still be alive by that point in the game (Corsair), and its main effect is basically hard-countered by a 100 mineral unit that Zerg starts the game with. Its secondary effect (Stasis) is relatively useless against the armies Protoss is likely to face in the late-game. Its tertiary effect (Recall) is reliant on somehow making it to the Zerg base without being detected by effectively free Overlords spread across the map, insanely cheap Scourge (relative to the price of Arbiters), and at best will destroy tech (which Zerg is better equipped to replace than any other race) and/or a mining base (which Zerg has more of than other races practically by default). TL;DR: Naw. On February 18 2025 05:43 XenOsky wrote: unplayable on certain maps, so if u do sair/reaver on Fighting Spirit, lets say, youre trolling. Want to add that FS is actually one of the slightly-better-than-average maps for Sair/Reaver simply because of the layout of the nat 3rd. One ramp can be held with Reaver+DWeb pretty effectively. Most modern maps I've seen are less favorable than FS. But it still does generally suck on FS. I can only think of one game where I saw Bisu pull it off and half of it was due to luck IIRC. And he pivoted to Templar much quicker than the typical Sair/Reaver we saw on maps like Andromeda in 2010 or whatever, IIRC. Wish I could remember what game it was but IIRC it was in the post-KeSPA era, perhaps late 2010s or early 2020s. He was top right vs. Zerg at top left and it was a tournament Bo5 which I think he ended up losing, in case that jogs anyone's memory. | ||
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iopq
United States1111 Posts
Taking out the main tech with just a modest recall could easily be worth it. Scourge only counter arbiters if you make them and put them in the correct place. Nobody suicides overlords to check for a 30 minute arbiter. You should have the element of surprise | ||
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Jealous
10334 Posts
On February 23 2025 05:49 iopq wrote: Nobody said you need to get arbiters early. Late game you often have multiple bases and gas to spare. Your problem is that the Zerg is basically everywhere. Taking out the main tech with just a modest recall could easily be worth it. Scourge only counter arbiters if you make them and put them in the correct place. Nobody suicides overlords to check for a 30 minute arbiter. You should have the element of surprise I would contend that 2x Speed Shuttle with Zeal/DT accomplishes the same goal with much less investment and with faster travel speed. Anyway, I think we may have to agree to disagree here. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey715 Posts
The unnoticed synergism with Arbiters would be HT hallucinations, although if you have such high value targets, would you waste 100 mana to dodge a 25/75 scourge? Arbiters don't seem the sort of unit feasible in a pvz. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On February 23 2025 07:17 Jealous wrote: I would contend that 2x Speed Shuttle with Zeal/DT accomplishes the same goal with much less investment and with faster travel speed. They do not, recalled army can consist of many more units and have much higher dps. Not to mention that speedlings will quickly counterattack and kill Zeal/DT before they can accomplish much. On the other hand archon and/or stasis on ramp makes it almost impossible to save the main base... | ||
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iloveav
Poland1482 Posts
1. Cors/DT is a ultra/ling counter. Does not work vs mass hydra and ESPECIALLY does not work against turtle zerg. Because of this, it is rare to see it used. Zerg can adapt to cors dt in 1 larva cycle (remmeber this part going forward). 2. DA has always been great. The mathematics worked a bit differently when zergs did not actively dodge storms. Back then 1 storm sooner was better than malestorm. Today, catching 1 clump of mutas, 1 clump of just made lurkers, 1 clump of hydras makes it worth it (because mistakes become smaller and smaller as people get better). 3. Arbiters have two problems: A) You cannot move the entire army together, so you will likely be fighting with 40% of your army when you recall to a zerg base vs his entire army. Positioning advantage aside (like recalling close to ramp and using it as a choke) the zerg can just counter your remaining army and kill your main base while you kill the base you recalled. Not a good trade in pvz. B) How do you get that army out now? The only way is another arbiter. This is where arbiters in pvz are great: defensive recall to stop a base doom drop. Not only you can stasis the overlords but you can recall exactly what you want to defend. And scourges are not a problem in this case. So, why use shuttles instead? 1) They are faster after the speed upgrade. 2) They cos no gas (this is basically the key factor btw. Lategame pvz gas units are the only units you want, zealots are just a buffer). 3) 4 speedlots 3/1/3 in 1 shuttle can do insane damage to a zerg base in left unchecked for even 5 seconds. You dont need to recall 3000/2000 worth of army (and a long production cycle) to do the job if a lot of stuff is happening on the map. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia973 Posts
Sure, there can be difficulties in getting it out early vs normal lair openers from Z, but there is no reason not to add it later. If only to make sure the storm actually kills the hydras. And there's no excuse to not getting them off of 3 gas. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
And remember that it is late PvZ (not much reason to use arbiters before that), so protoss bases have cannons, storms, reavers. Zerg cannot just overwhelm them without terrible losses. 4 speedlots will not kill much before lings counterattack and murder them. Only big army recall can hold a ramp. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1482 Posts
On February 27 2025 17:12 SiarX wrote: If zerg does not defend from recalled army, then it would likely be able to clean the rest of his bases, and losing main with all precious tech really hurts. And remember that it is late PvZ (not much reason to use arbiters before that), so protoss bases have cannons, storms, reavers. Zerg cannot just overwhelm them without terrible losses. 4 speedlots will not kill much before lings counterattack and murder them. Only big army recall can hold a ramp. I agree with everything you said, but then that zerg went afk. if zerg dont defend recall, they lose a base, but the same happens if they dont defend from a 4 zealot drop. Its a question of how good they are. At the moment when you have an arbiter, zergs usually have defilers. a recalled army is prime plaguuuuuu target. If you recall in his main, he drops the tech buildings instantly in his other main base, nothing is lost, since there are not even minerals there left at that time. If you recall an expansion, you kill 1 expansion and probably a good number of drones for a stuck army for next 40 seconds that he can plague, block with lurker/swarm, etc; while he kills your entire bases with swarm /lings. You say protoss has canons and storm to defend at that point? true. Canons do nothing (Swarm), storms run out in 2 zergling groups. If you have storm canons and reavers you can hold it, but if that is the case (lets assume 5 bases, each has at least 1 ht, all naturals have at least 2 reavers) then your recalled army is literally going to give up map control to the zerg. Have fun trying to get that back. In theory the arbiter thing works. Try in in game, you will learn soon why it does not work. Yes, if you are super far ahead and make an arbiter, it seems its useful. But in normal games I never had the arbiter win me a game (except in fastest possible maps, where they are literal teleporters for your army since you can make 4 at the time). Against Terrans things are different. They are the ones with the slower army. But here is the worst part about arbiter: it builds super slow and you need to add on top of that the time to build up energy. PvZ is a very momentum based match up where if we assume both players are of equal skill, a constant search for advantages ahs to be done by the protoss so they dont fall behind in macro. Commiting to an arbiter? lets just say it is usually too later to do that at this point, because you either won already or lost already. Great for style points and having fun thou, not gonna lie. Kinda like queen green goo. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
I agree that all those arguments "if it was good, pros would be using them already" and "it is expensive and has very little use" sound solid. But remember that before dark archones and queens were considered useless, too, until pro players started actually using them regularly, and they turned out to be really efficient in their niche. Many units see/saw no use, because pros are in general very conservative. | ||
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Jealous
10334 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey715 Posts
Arbiter recall time: gateway+cybernetics core+stargate(templar archives)+arbiter tribunal+100.8s warp time(recall research)+120 seconds mana time=340,8 seconds. I think zerg doesn't have a slower tech tree. PS: ultralisks are 360(444) seconds if you make two caverns to research both upgrades, but who plays with ultralisks against protoss? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10477 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey715 Posts
There is a general misunderstood notion of lategame zerg power. Zerg actually gains ground from facing Dragoons with Mutalisks. Protoss should avoid mixed Mutalisk armies. Mutalisks are terribly underutilised in late game zerg. A unit that is a good tank, that flies, that provides cover is either an Overlord, or a Mutalisk. Those are sorely missed in ZvP. I miss the days Jaedong would ninja dark swarm with dropped defilers. Nothing hits home like a good zerg air assault. The way to dismantle this is archons since nothing, but archons can ignore mutalisk fire. | ||
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