EPTMy opinion atleast.
[I] ZvT The Hustler - Page 2
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
My opinion atleast. | ||
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NrG.JenSei
13 Posts
I am African American and all this retarded slang is annoying | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On December 06 2007 10:54 NrG.JenSei wrote: I am African American and all this retarded slang is annoying Hey, I'm African American too! (well, African Canadian but close enough), and guess what? I'm not colored! Good God sound the alarms! Anyways, on topic, I'm going to give this build a try on python to see if my idle bluster and theorycraft is just that, I'll get back with results if it actually accomplishes something :p | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2646 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
With no scourge you'll have to rely on 2-3 lurks for defense against the drop. | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On December 06 2007 23:03 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Wouldn't the logical follow up be to get lord speed pretty fast? That way you can drop lurkers and stuff everywhere if the terran tries something. That's what I would do. On December 08 2007 04:43 FieryBalrog wrote: I'm pretty sure the T can scout the expo and drop it instead of (or in addition to) pushing your nat? (where he will most likely bottle you up as you went fast lurker) With no scourge you'll have to rely on 2-3 lurks for defense against the drop. Well, obviously if you know what your opponent is doing you can easily stop it. Drop and Lurker tech comes pretty quickly (typically before Terran drop) so it can come before the Terran is prepared if he assumes you are playing a more standard build. Of course if he realizes what you are doing, you're screwed. That's the gamble you take with this build. You do get the luxury of keeping him contained until he feels that he can deal with counter drops. If you get Overlord speed after drop, you can often get 2-3 more undefended bases by doing annoying 2 Lurker drops at both his mineral lines. My experience with harassment drop play is that you typically spend all game slowly trading units for workers, and then die when he is ready to roll out with an army about double your army's size. | ||
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
Sometime in the near future I expect to see a featured proleague zerg player that has fantastic OL drop mechanics. Perhaps this is a stereotype but most zerg players are terrible with their drops. I stumbled upon this build myself on bnet. My lag was really hindering any viable muta harass against terran, especially when they went mech. I took the natural logical course of action and went for the 2nd anti-tank zerg option (dropping). OL drops drastically reduces the effectiveness of tanks and have the added benefit of bringing mines into enemy groupings instead of mine. I also found that the damage absorbing properties of OLs made medic marine fights more viable as well. I follow the general rules of thumb Dont do this build on small maps like blue storm. OL drops rock on Zodiac etc, but smaller maps allow fast pushes before you can get a decent lurker defense going. Follow yubees initial build instructions. (12 hatch early gas, lair, upgrade OL, then den) You will need ~ 3 lurks to fend attacks off in my experience. Be sure to have lings posted at the terran front door to indicate when an attack is incoming. I use the following hot keys and procedure to take out incoming forces: Hot key 1 (a single overlord full of lings) 2 (lurkers) 3 (ground force of lings) 4 (rest of drop force in Ols) Drop the main ling force behind the enemy force (hot key 4) this will draw medic/marine fire. From there push in the attack force of lings on the ground (hot key 3). Unless the terran is really on his game he will be too busy attacking OLs to deal with the ling force coming in. Even if he does manage to re-target the incoming lings, there are the lings pouring out of the OLs in proximity. You now have a non-mobile medic/marine force. Click hot key 2 bring in the lurks and burrow to deal with whats left. If there is a tank in a fall back siege position (or a tank around in general) switch to hot key 1 and drop 2 lings per tank. I have found it helpful to encourage terran players to either fast expand or do a medic/marine +1 siege tank push. On fast expand drop in the main first and then as soon as his forces go into his main to fight off the attack, drop his expansion (or just rush lings in if his front door is no longer blocked) This usually stalls long enough to get a sizable lurker/hydra grouping to do a proper drop right on the production of the main. On medic/marine + 1 siege tank push make sure you have a OL (with attack forces) around the forward edge of the 3 sunken colonies you have built to keep this push back. Attack initially with the ground lings and then drop on the tank. 90% of the time you will take out the tank but still have some medic/marines hanging around but you have bought yourself the time needed to gather enough forces to proper follow the procedure previously discussed. Be sure to get 2 hydra when you can spare the gas. Wraiths can really botch this build up if you are caught unprepared. If your opponent is getting cute and going mech all the better. You know where the mines are at, so use them to your advantage. once again... thoughts? | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On December 05 2007 08:52 Aux1 wrote: I don't understand why you think this build is so strong? Once terran sees your 2hatch gas he will expect. 1.Fast lurker 2.Drop 3.2 Hatch Muta All terran needs to do is play safe and he has an easy win. Especially on a non island map which Zodiac is, your island expo cannot produce units except drones, so your macro will suffer. If terran plays smart and just waits for a vessel to go he has an easy win. The idea is that even if a Terran knows its coming there is a gameplan.. Fast double builds are kind of odd vs 2hat as Terran ends up a bit behind at every phase. So the best case for Terran is to actually end the game quick with some shit. On most maps I think the best way to play this build is to switch from lurker to muta while getting your hive to go guardian and then either defiler or ultra. There are few situational things that work incredibly well vs this, it protects your bases from drops and the only big weakness is that if you get harassed really early by marines or vults running by you are fucked and if T ever manages to catch your initial lurkers and kill them with few losses he should be able to end the game easily. When going Guardian you also need to realize the balance of a T who knows its coming. ie, if the T starts pumping mass cloak wraith(Probably the best situation for Z if you know its coming) you need to prepare your defenses vs it ahead of time. Or else you could end up losing all your guards then having slow hydras and scourge chasing around an invincible ball of wraith. So you need to either start making lots of hydras and sporing your islands or get a devourer or two and overlord speed so you can chase the wraiths around with mutas. Anyway this play has always been one of my favorite "trick" styles. Really any lapse of timing on the terrans part and the Z will run over them no problem. Just learn how to pressure their opening with the first lurkers and how to delay their push as much as possible. Also keep in mind vs 1base play this build is not as strong done how I detailed it. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On December 08 2007 04:55 Chill wrote: That's what I would do. Well, obviously if you know what your opponent is doing you can easily stop it. Drop and Lurker tech comes pretty quickly (typically before Terran drop) so it can come before the Terran is prepared if he assumes you are playing a more standard build. Of course if he realizes what you are doing, you're screwed. That's the gamble you take with this build. Well I mean if you scout super early gas and scan 2 hatch lurks, wouldn't that be a pretty clear indication of some sort of slow drop build going down? Or is it relying on him expecting slow lurks into his base and not the quick 3rd hatch at island expo? Well like you said I guess that could work against naive or unsuspecting T's but anyone with their smarts about them should catch that fairly well. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On December 08 2007 05:32 Diggity wrote: I use the following hot keys and procedure to take out incoming forces: Hot key 1 (a single overlord full of lings) 2 (lurkers) 3 (ground force of lings) 4 (rest of drop force in Ols) Drop the main ling force behind the enemy force (hot key 4) this will draw medic/marine fire. From there push in the attack force of lings on the ground (hot key 3). Unless the terran is really on his game he will be too busy attacking OLs to deal with the ling force coming in. Even if he does manage to re-target the incoming lings, there are the lings pouring out of the OLs in proximity. You now have a non-mobile medic/marine force. Click hot key 2 bring in the lurks and burrow to deal with whats left. If there is a tank in a fall back siege position (or a tank around in general) switch to hot key 1 and drop 2 lings per tank. How many mnm is this expected to deal with? Mid-game ball army of 2.5 groups and a few tanks? It seems like an awful lot of effort for something you can just try to deal with by flanking lurk/ling, since in your case it seems like you're leaving the lurks behind and bringing them in to mop up (should be other way around, flank lurk/ling, flank more lings to mop up). I know you're trying to use OLs to absorb fire (instead of the first few lurks, as is traditional) but targetting priority will immediately switch to lings when in range, which means your lings will be the main damage absorption... which is bad. Not to mention, it would be an incredible bitch to do that with slow lords so you'd have to sink the full 350/350 into the ol upgrades early, which would severely hurt your lurker count at a crucial time. Also, would it come in time? Or is this late game? I dont know, Im not getting the point of this. I totally agree that drops are underused but I'm mainly thinking of harass potential (or against a tank/vult T metal player who sees no spire and thinks he's safe, like you said). | ||
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
How many mnm is this expected to deal with? Mid-game ball army of 2.5 groups and a few tanks? It seems like an awful lot of effort for something you can just try to deal with by flanking lurk/ling, since in your case it seems like you're leaving the lurks behind and bringing them in to mop up (should be other way around, flank lurk/ling, flank more lings to mop up). I have yet to test the maximum effective size of this sort of attack but like all zerg pushes it has a limited effective size of mnm. I will try to get a count off a replay next time I try this out. Keep in mind its a single simultaneous action (4u, 3a, 2(move and burrow) 1u if necessary). The dropping lings serve the same purpose as the flank and also shifts the targeting priority. Not to mention, it would be an incredible bitch to do that with slow lords so you'd have to sink the full 350/350 into the ol upgrades early, which would severely hurt your lurker count at a crucial time. Also, would it come in time? Its an early upgrade sink which is why I say don't do it on blue storm or any other small map. Otherwise you will just get over run. On maps like Zodiac however this works fairly well, particularly in combination with yubee's cheese. This also gives you a nice mobility advantage mid game (as you have ~8 ols for drop v 1-2 for terran). The above recommendation is specifically for dealing with a medic/marine ball with fewer lurkers (basically focused entirely on lurker conservation). The 2nd option I listed above is assuming no OL speed. Basically you move lings out and around off the terran view with the OL when you see him coming and then pincher in to get the tank and buy some time when he arrives. Usually this also means he has emptied his base (so you can go for the yubee drop). Really the worst situation is a fast wraith build out of 2 ports (that wasn't spotted) leading into OL hunting (you dont have gas for hydra and you lose a ton of forces/OLs) or dropships if you were too passive and slow. The point is this is an aggressive and mobile option for maps like zodiac. Specifically on bnet (due to the lag) I have found this more effective than a muta attack with lings (muta's to absorb damage) for dealing with that initial midgame medic marine ball. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
I open 12hatch 11pool 13gas, lair at first 100 gas, start den as lair finishes and upgrade ventral sacs, lurker when den finishes, and make sure to have two overlords positioned for a 3cm drop. (I've been playing mostly python, so the ideal spot is behind the mins at the min only between 12/3 or 6/9.) Lurker and drop finish at around the same time, so load up 6-8 lings into one overlord, two lurkers into another. When I drop, I send the lings to the terran mineral line, to which they will obviously respond by running their precious scvs to their nat. Unfortunately for them, I immediately run your lurkers to their ramp right after dropping them. This has been pretty effective against most T (and some P) players that I've tried it on. It's probably just standard, but I find that putting the lurkers on the ramp nets a lot more scv kills than behind the mineral line, as they always overreact to the 6ish lings and run away their entire mining force :p | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5328_Shine_vs_YellOw/vod hehe i have a good memory of games. upload the fp vod of yarnc. I want to see. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
 . Let me dig up a vid. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On December 27 2007 15:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I remember yellow used something similiar to this on arcadia 2 awhile back. He used it to get 4 gas into guards and won with it. Found it http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5328_Shine_vs_YellOw/vod hehe i have a good memory of games. upload the fp vod of yarnc. I want to see. WTF U STOLE MY THUNDER man watching it again it was rly a close game! | ||
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doc.x
94 Posts
still don't get why this build is so great. mostly, you are putting ur expos on islands so terran can't attack them, but you're using up 200/200 min/gas. that's pretty hefty. terran can just play straight up and go for your main. you can add the extra 100/100 fast overlord to try to harass... but the 200/200 min/gas for safe expo doesn't seem worth it cause ur lurks are late, and muta harass is late if any. On December 06 2007 10:54 NrG.JenSei wrote: I am African American and all this retarded slang is annoying ... i still don't understand what polar was saying... | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
On December 27 2007 19:46 evanthebouncy! wrote: WTF U STOLE MY THUNDER man watching it again it was rly a close game! ROFL | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36379 Posts
He went muta harass instead of lurker after dropping both islands, and got an insanely fast greater spire to stop the timing push. The mutas also allowed Max to stop the drops. Max died when his switch to defiler/ultra/ling didn't have enough units as Sea's macro came rolling through. But had JD or Savior played this strat, it likely would've won. | ||
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