Nowadays every Zerg knows how hard it can be to hold a 3rd base, especially 'cause Terrans always tryin' to bring you down before you get that hive money.
You gots to get that money in the bank!
So using my special powers of formulation and a dope ass FPVod of YellOw[ArnC] vs Dongrae on 815 III, I've come up with a custom ace-in-the-hole build I like to call "The Hustler". It is aptly named because, like a hustler, you're pulling out your bag of tricks to do what you gotta do and stay alive. Terran will suspect some kind of trick strategy but you rollin' them dice and gettin' that money baby. The catch is that it only works on maps with islands, but it's just peachy on Zodiac, one of the current maps.
I'm also looking for some input to gosu-ify this build, so don't hesitate to put in some tips on what you think would win 2ez.
The way it's looking right now, it starts with a standard 12 hatch, 11 pool, and a very quick 10 extractor. Make a few lings to kill the scout and check his marine count per usual, and continue to power drones. Start your lair as soon as you get 100 gas, and try to have enough minerals and gas to upgrade Overlord Drop as soon as your lair finishes. If you put your den down when your lair completes, you should have enough for lurker research right as the den finishes. (thanks kraekkling!)
Send your first overlord to scout and your second to your natural to scout for bunker rush, like usual, after which position them at one of these points depending on your/your opponent's position.
Don't want yo' ride gettin' shot up 'fo you start hustlin', naw'm'sayin?
If it makes you horny, you can also proxy a few lurkers and try a 3cm drop into the Terran's main from his 3rd (or another position), but it's predictable since they will probably notice a late third. If not, do what you gotta do baby and drop them lurks all on they nuts.
After you drop your drone to expand, send your ov back to the original drop point, or at least close to it. That way, when you want to maynard some more drones to your islands, you got yo' ride on hand fo' them to peace out.
Now at this point, I'm not exactly sure which direction to deviate to, but since it may take a little bit longer for your islands to kick online, and the timing attack with the first vessel will probably come before you can build up your economy, the best solution might be to rush hive and delay with your lurkers long enough for swarm to kick in.
On Zodiac, your third (your actual 5th expansion) will be relatively easier to hold because of the short distance from your main, so if you can kick it up to 5 gas while adding a couple hatcheries, swarm and lurkers should hold long enough for your macro to explode into a million high super-pressured units.
Thoughts? Ideas? (Also don't say it's just a standard island slow drop expo because this is the muthafuckin' Hustler now)
PS I'll try to get that Yarnc vs Dongrae FPVod uploaded because it's seriously my favorite FPVod, the build is so sick!!!
Haha. Anyway this seems like a nice build to try on Zodiac. If a terran scouts this what could he do? I suspect by the time he has a dropship the island would be full bore.
On December 04 2007 12:37 SayaSP wrote: Everyday you're hustlin'?
Haha. Anyway this seems like a nice build to try on Zodiac. If a terran scouts this what could he do? I suspect by the time he has a dropship the island would be full bore.
well i'm thinking the terran has to be kinda conservative with his scans since a 2 hatch lurker build can bring the pain any time. they either have to commit to using scans before vessel to scout your island or wait til he gets vessels to start scanning for expos, by which time yeah you'll have them up and you can sunk
when your are going for slowdrop and lurkers you should get your hydraden when lair finishes, than you gonna have exact money for lurkerup when den is ready (ofc if you research drop first)
On December 04 2007 19:47 Kraekkling wrote: when your are going for slowdrop and lurkers you should get your hydraden when lair finishes, than you gonna have exact money for lurkerup when den is ready (ofc if you research drop first)
It's not a far distance for the terran to fly a building if he suspects something is amiss. There again, there aren't many buildings (until sci facility) the terran doesn't need grounded so I doubt they'd check as part of a standard build. But if scouted you're fucked and it's possible the terran might try to fly a cc to a quick island expo given you're not going muta.
I think this would definitely be useful on python as well due to the nature of the backdoor island expansion, the only issue is if the game is 12/3 or 6/9 it might be a tad harder to defend.
I don't understand why you think this build is so strong? Once terran sees your 2hatch gas he will expect. 1.Fast lurker 2.Drop 3.2 Hatch Muta
All terran needs to do is play safe and he has an easy win. Especially on a non island map which Zodiac is, your island expo cannot produce units except drones, so your macro will suffer. If terran plays smart and just waits for a vessel to go he has an easy win.
On December 05 2007 08:42 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: I think this would definitely be useful on python as well due to the nature of the backdoor island expansion, the only issue is if the game is 12/3 or 6/9 it might be a tad harder to defend.
Hm I do feel like Zodiac is at least slightly better suited for this, simply because the area @ the island is much smaller. Which means that no matter where the terran unloads, you can hit the infantry with sunk/lurker as long as you are careful with placement. This is obviously not true on python since the islands are massive and even 1 dropship midgame means your island expo is toast.
Of course this isnt definitive fact or anything, it's just what I "feel", so any thoughts?
On December 05 2007 08:42 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: I think this would definitely be useful on python as well due to the nature of the backdoor island expansion, the only issue is if the game is 12/3 or 6/9 it might be a tad harder to defend.
Hm I do feel like Zodiac is at least slightly better suited for this, simply because the area @ the island is much smaller. Which means that no matter where the terran unloads, you can hit the infantry with sunk/lurker as long as you are careful with placement. This is obviously not true on python since the islands are massive and even 1 dropship midgame means your island expo is toast.
Of course this isnt definitive fact or anything, it's just what I "feel", so any thoughts?
I can definitely see and appreciate the logic behind Zodiac's islands being easier to defend, I'm just relying on the surprise factor to keep your expo safe until you can set up a defense. I don't think I've ever seen a zerg player go 2hatch and take the island as a third on Python, but maybe that's just me. If that is the case, you might be able to get away with it seeing as it's not very common? Just my two cents.
As an afterthought, you are opening lurker, so maybe if the terran scouts your island expo or you feel for whatever reason that it's weak you could just slow drop two lurkers over there once the upgrade has finished? A fun trick would be to stack the two lurkers like I've seen sAviOr do, so that it appears that there's only one > Again, just speculation from a noob like myself :p
this is a good strategy against lower level terrans or better players that are underestimating you. from what i've seen, most zergs using builds like this one are extremely vulnerable against a timing push. this is usually because of sloppy delay micro or switching to unit production/adding hatcheries too late.
It's way too passive. The entire game is waiting for and rushing certain techs. Any decent Terran would contain you, take a third, and siege your nat while you're still trying to create an eco with your island expo.
On December 04 2007 13:59 Polar wrote: How many coloreds do you think have ever played bw? I'd bet the number is 1000<. It's kind of like skiing. =]
They prefer Native American.
I am African American and all this retarded slang is annoying
Hey, I'm African American too! (well, African Canadian but close enough), and guess what? I'm not colored! Good God sound the alarms!
Anyways, on topic, I'm going to give this build a try on python to see if my idle bluster and theorycraft is just that, I'll get back with results if it actually accomplishes something :p
I'm pretty sure the T can scout the expo and drop it instead of (or in addition to) pushing your nat? (where he will most likely bottle you up as you went fast lurker)
With no scourge you'll have to rely on 2-3 lurks for defense against the drop.
On December 06 2007 23:03 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Wouldn't the logical follow up be to get lord speed pretty fast? That way you can drop lurkers and stuff everywhere if the terran tries something.
That's what I would do.
On December 08 2007 04:43 FieryBalrog wrote: I'm pretty sure the T can scout the expo and drop it instead of (or in addition to) pushing your nat? (where he will most likely bottle you up as you went fast lurker)
With no scourge you'll have to rely on 2-3 lurks for defense against the drop.
Well, obviously if you know what your opponent is doing you can easily stop it. Drop and Lurker tech comes pretty quickly (typically before Terran drop) so it can come before the Terran is prepared if he assumes you are playing a more standard build. Of course if he realizes what you are doing, you're screwed. That's the gamble you take with this build.
You do get the luxury of keeping him contained until he feels that he can deal with counter drops. If you get Overlord speed after drop, you can often get 2-3 more undefended bases by doing annoying 2 Lurker drops at both his mineral lines. My experience with harassment drop play is that you typically spend all game slowly trading units for workers, and then die when he is ready to roll out with an army about double your army's size.
I actually do something similar but I skip loading lurks and load lings and go for pneum (speed) asap. Sometimes I will skip ling speed specifically to open up gas.
Sometime in the near future I expect to see a featured proleague zerg player that has fantastic OL drop mechanics.
Perhaps this is a stereotype but most zerg players are terrible with their drops.
I stumbled upon this build myself on bnet. My lag was really hindering any viable muta harass against terran, especially when they went mech. I took the natural logical course of action and went for the 2nd anti-tank zerg option (dropping). OL drops drastically reduces the effectiveness of tanks and have the added benefit of bringing mines into enemy groupings instead of mine. I also found that the damage absorbing properties of OLs made medic marine fights more viable as well.
I follow the general rules of thumb
Dont do this build on small maps like blue storm. OL drops rock on Zodiac etc, but smaller maps allow fast pushes before you can get a decent lurker defense going.
Follow yubees initial build instructions. (12 hatch early gas, lair, upgrade OL, then den)
You will need ~ 3 lurks to fend attacks off in my experience. Be sure to have lings posted at the terran front door to indicate when an attack is incoming.
I use the following hot keys and procedure to take out incoming forces:
Hot key 1 (a single overlord full of lings) 2 (lurkers) 3 (ground force of lings) 4 (rest of drop force in Ols)
Drop the main ling force behind the enemy force (hot key 4) this will draw medic/marine fire. From there push in the attack force of lings on the ground (hot key 3). Unless the terran is really on his game he will be too busy attacking OLs to deal with the ling force coming in. Even if he does manage to re-target the incoming lings, there are the lings pouring out of the OLs in proximity.
You now have a non-mobile medic/marine force. Click hot key 2 bring in the lurks and burrow to deal with whats left. If there is a tank in a fall back siege position (or a tank around in general) switch to hot key 1 and drop 2 lings per tank.
I have found it helpful to encourage terran players to either fast expand or do a medic/marine +1 siege tank push.
On fast expand drop in the main first and then as soon as his forces go into his main to fight off the attack, drop his expansion (or just rush lings in if his front door is no longer blocked)
This usually stalls long enough to get a sizable lurker/hydra grouping to do a proper drop right on the production of the main.
On medic/marine + 1 siege tank push make sure you have a OL (with attack forces) around the forward edge of the 3 sunken colonies you have built to keep this push back. Attack initially with the ground lings and then drop on the tank. 90% of the time you will take out the tank but still have some medic/marines hanging around but you have bought yourself the time needed to gather enough forces to proper follow the procedure previously discussed.
Be sure to get 2 hydra when you can spare the gas. Wraiths can really botch this build up if you are caught unprepared. If your opponent is getting cute and going mech all the better. You know where the mines are at, so use them to your advantage.
On December 05 2007 08:52 Aux1 wrote: I don't understand why you think this build is so strong? Once terran sees your 2hatch gas he will expect. 1.Fast lurker 2.Drop 3.2 Hatch Muta
All terran needs to do is play safe and he has an easy win. Especially on a non island map which Zodiac is, your island expo cannot produce units except drones, so your macro will suffer. If terran plays smart and just waits for a vessel to go he has an easy win.
The idea is that even if a Terran knows its coming there is a gameplan.. Fast double builds are kind of odd vs 2hat as Terran ends up a bit behind at every phase. So the best case for Terran is to actually end the game quick with some shit.
On most maps I think the best way to play this build is to switch from lurker to muta while getting your hive to go guardian and then either defiler or ultra. There are few situational things that work incredibly well vs this, it protects your bases from drops and the only big weakness is that if you get harassed really early by marines or vults running by you are fucked and if T ever manages to catch your initial lurkers and kill them with few losses he should be able to end the game easily.
When going Guardian you also need to realize the balance of a T who knows its coming. ie, if the T starts pumping mass cloak wraith(Probably the best situation for Z if you know its coming) you need to prepare your defenses vs it ahead of time. Or else you could end up losing all your guards then having slow hydras and scourge chasing around an invincible ball of wraith. So you need to either start making lots of hydras and sporing your islands or get a devourer or two and overlord speed so you can chase the wraiths around with mutas.
Anyway this play has always been one of my favorite "trick" styles. Really any lapse of timing on the terrans part and the Z will run over them no problem. Just learn how to pressure their opening with the first lurkers and how to delay their push as much as possible. Also keep in mind vs 1base play this build is not as strong done how I detailed it.
On December 06 2007 23:03 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Wouldn't the logical follow up be to get lord speed pretty fast? That way you can drop lurkers and stuff everywhere if the terran tries something.
On December 08 2007 04:43 FieryBalrog wrote: I'm pretty sure the T can scout the expo and drop it instead of (or in addition to) pushing your nat? (where he will most likely bottle you up as you went fast lurker)
With no scourge you'll have to rely on 2-3 lurks for defense against the drop.
Well, obviously if you know what your opponent is doing you can easily stop it. Drop and Lurker tech comes pretty quickly (typically before Terran drop) so it can come before the Terran is prepared if he assumes you are playing a more standard build. Of course if he realizes what you are doing, you're screwed. That's the gamble you take with this build.
Well I mean if you scout super early gas and scan 2 hatch lurks, wouldn't that be a pretty clear indication of some sort of slow drop build going down?
Or is it relying on him expecting slow lurks into his base and not the quick 3rd hatch at island expo? Well like you said I guess that could work against naive or unsuspecting T's but anyone with their smarts about them should catch that fairly well.
I use the following hot keys and procedure to take out incoming forces:
Hot key 1 (a single overlord full of lings) 2 (lurkers) 3 (ground force of lings) 4 (rest of drop force in Ols)
Drop the main ling force behind the enemy force (hot key 4) this will draw medic/marine fire. From there push in the attack force of lings on the ground (hot key 3). Unless the terran is really on his game he will be too busy attacking OLs to deal with the ling force coming in. Even if he does manage to re-target the incoming lings, there are the lings pouring out of the OLs in proximity.
You now have a non-mobile medic/marine force. Click hot key 2 bring in the lurks and burrow to deal with whats left. If there is a tank in a fall back siege position (or a tank around in general) switch to hot key 1 and drop 2 lings per tank.
How many mnm is this expected to deal with? Mid-game ball army of 2.5 groups and a few tanks? It seems like an awful lot of effort for something you can just try to deal with by flanking lurk/ling, since in your case it seems like you're leaving the lurks behind and bringing them in to mop up (should be other way around, flank lurk/ling, flank more lings to mop up).
I know you're trying to use OLs to absorb fire (instead of the first few lurks, as is traditional) but targetting priority will immediately switch to lings when in range, which means your lings will be the main damage absorption... which is bad.
Not to mention, it would be an incredible bitch to do that with slow lords so you'd have to sink the full 350/350 into the ol upgrades early, which would severely hurt your lurker count at a crucial time. Also, would it come in time?
Or is this late game? I dont know, Im not getting the point of this. I totally agree that drops are underused but I'm mainly thinking of harass potential (or against a tank/vult T metal player who sees no spire and thinks he's safe, like you said).
How many mnm is this expected to deal with? Mid-game ball army of 2.5 groups and a few tanks? It seems like an awful lot of effort for something you can just try to deal with by flanking lurk/ling, since in your case it seems like you're leaving the lurks behind and bringing them in to mop up (should be other way around, flank lurk/ling, flank more lings to mop up).
I have yet to test the maximum effective size of this sort of attack but like all zerg pushes it has a limited effective size of mnm. I will try to get a count off a replay next time I try this out.
Keep in mind its a single simultaneous action (4u, 3a, 2(move and burrow) 1u if necessary). The dropping lings serve the same purpose as the flank and also shifts the targeting priority.
Not to mention, it would be an incredible bitch to do that with slow lords so you'd have to sink the full 350/350 into the ol upgrades early, which would severely hurt your lurker count at a crucial time. Also, would it come in time?
Its an early upgrade sink which is why I say don't do it on blue storm or any other small map. Otherwise you will just get over run. On maps like Zodiac however this works fairly well, particularly in combination with yubee's cheese. This also gives you a nice mobility advantage mid game (as you have ~8 ols for drop v 1-2 for terran). The above recommendation is specifically for dealing with a medic/marine ball with fewer lurkers (basically focused entirely on lurker conservation).
The 2nd option I listed above is assuming no OL speed. Basically you move lings out and around off the terran view with the OL when you see him coming and then pincher in to get the tank and buy some time when he arrives. Usually this also means he has emptied his base (so you can go for the yubee drop).
Really the worst situation is a fast wraith build out of 2 ports (that wasn't spotted) leading into OL hunting (you dont have gas for hydra and you lose a ton of forces/OLs) or dropships if you were too passive and slow.
The point is this is an aggressive and mobile option for maps like zodiac. Specifically on bnet (due to the lag) I have found this more effective than a muta attack with lings (muta's to absorb damage) for dealing with that initial midgame medic marine ball.
I'm going to bump this thread to mention that I have had some success with a variation of the 2hatch lurker slowdrop.
I open 12hatch 11pool 13gas, lair at first 100 gas, start den as lair finishes and upgrade ventral sacs, lurker when den finishes, and make sure to have two overlords positioned for a 3cm drop. (I've been playing mostly python, so the ideal spot is behind the mins at the min only between 12/3 or 6/9.) Lurker and drop finish at around the same time, so load up 6-8 lings into one overlord, two lurkers into another.
When I drop, I send the lings to the terran mineral line, to which they will obviously respond by running their precious scvs to their nat. Unfortunately for them, I immediately run your lurkers to their ramp right after dropping them. This has been pretty effective against most T (and some P) players that I've tried it on.
It's probably just standard, but I find that putting the lurkers on the ramp nets a lot more scv kills than behind the mineral line, as they always overreact to the 6ish lings and run away their entire mining force :p
I remember yellow used something similiar to this on arcadia 2 awhile back. He used it to get 4 gas into guards and won with it. Found it http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5328_Shine_vs_YellOw/vod hehe i have a good memory of games.
I always thought lurker research first because the time it takes for your initial lurkers to morph will be enough for your second overlord drop upgrade to finish. this should make your rush a little faster. but also requires that your den be up before your lair finishes.
IIRC yellow uses this build on Arcadia to great success, slow ovi take island. Except as yellow obviously he built 10000 sunkens at his nat and waited for guardians . Let me dig up a vid.
On December 27 2007 15:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I remember yellow used something similiar to this on arcadia 2 awhile back. He used it to get 4 gas into guards and won with it. Found it http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5328_Shine_vs_YellOw/vod hehe i have a good memory of games.
if ur gonna research overlord drop, might as well research speed later too. can try delaying terran by hit/run dropping/picking-up lurkers in his base everywhere. that might give you enough time to get swarm up.
still don't get why this build is so great. mostly, you are putting ur expos on islands so terran can't attack them, but you're using up 200/200 min/gas. that's pretty hefty. terran can just play straight up and go for your main. you can add the extra 100/100 fast overlord to try to harass... but the 200/200 min/gas for safe expo doesn't seem worth it cause ur lurks are late, and muta harass is late if any.
On December 27 2007 15:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I remember yellow used something similiar to this on arcadia 2 awhile back. He used it to get 4 gas into guards and won with it. Found it http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5328_Shine_vs_YellOw/vod hehe i have a good memory of games.
Max actually used this build against Sea, and it would've worked if Max didn't suck so bad.
He went muta harass instead of lurker after dropping both islands, and got an insanely fast greater spire to stop the timing push. The mutas also allowed Max to stop the drops.
Max died when his switch to defiler/ultra/ling didn't have enough units as Sea's macro came rolling through. But had JD or Savior played this strat, it likely would've won.
i guess its a little redundant for me to come and say ive been doing this quite a lot every time someone posts a remotely new zvt build but ive been doing this quite a lot especially on maps like python. i like to mix it up with a fast +1 carepace and super fast jump to ultralisk personally but a lot of options are open. I think it's often the best way to play on maps with isle expansions myself, especially if they're easily accessible.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4044/droppointslx5.jpg)
