Creating a full chart of Zerg builds

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 18 2024 12:33 GMT

I would like to document all of the fastest possible timings for Zerg builds, starting from 4 pool

https://repmastered.app/game/VhZvF3Tmx7ZVlw7XrlbO9g6Ir3EqPB4FMS998TRxpz0

I got it down at 0:34, can anyone can cut that down to 0:33? I had enough at 0:33, but the drone had to travel an extra pixel

Alternatively, post your best timing on another Zerg build, like 5 pool

kogeT

Poland2042 Posts

April 18 2024 13:55 GMT

You would need to pick a map and specific mineral lines/positions. Else i take fastest.

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 18 2024 14:02 GMT

On April 18 2024 22:55 kogeT wrote:
You would need to pick a map and specific mineral lines/positions. Else i take fastest.

I'm talking about ladder maps. Take any position, they should be roughly equivalent (except left might be worse in some builds)

HerbMon

United States469 Posts

April 19 2024 02:37 GMT

This sounds fun. I'll try to beat it.

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 19 2024 07:54 GMT

On April 19 2024 11:37 HerbMon wrote:
This sounds fun. I'll try to beat it.

Great, here's the reference 5 pool @ 0:40 if you want to try that one

https://repmastered.app/game/AUanSUM1BFdA9u_FT-nxdFbq-7N-EgOKXUaOmYwMcKk

kogeT

Poland2042 Posts

April 19 2024 08:44 GMT

Also, it would be great to try it on more comprehensive builds, eg total min/gas count and timings for 2 hath muta, 2.5 hath etc with condition to make 6 lings at specific time etc.

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 23 2024 11:03 GMT

On April 19 2024 17:44 kogeT wrote:
Also, it would be great to try it on more comprehensive builds, eg total min/gas count and timings for 2 hath muta, 2.5 hath etc with condition to make 6 lings at specific time etc.

Sure, my benchmark would be time to get to 7 mutas and how many larvae you have. The exact amount of minerals is not as important as the number of drones you can get up to in the mid game while still making mutas.

The timings for Lair should be perfectly lined up with the larva pop.

Upgrading the Lair on your main hatchery should be something like:
2:33(12 pool), 2:48 (11/11/10), 3:02 (2.5 hatch muta), 3:17 (2.75 hatch muta), 3:31 (3 bases before gas)

I've found absolutely NO benefit in 3 hatcheries in base before gas, since you can easily get everything you need with a faster gas. It only delays your third hatchery by like 4 seconds while getting you to mutas ~15 seconds faster.

====
If you upgrade on your expansion hatchery, it makes sense not to make a hatch on exactly 12 since that will sync your hatcheries.

the larva spawns at this time + larva block time

14.364
28.728
43.092
57.456
1:11.82
1:26.184
1:40.548
1:54.912
2:09.276
2:23.64
2:38.004
2:52.368
3:06.732
3:21.096
3:35.46
3:49.824
4:04.188

lair upgrade takes 63 seconds so you want to start it 8 seconds after your last larva
mining 100 gas from the time where you start the extractor takes 48 seconds

so if you 11 hatch you should get it completed 75 seconds later - I have already posted a 2:31 1 hatch timing so that's 2:46 at the fastest and you should gas at like 2:04 to start the lair on your second hatch at 2:54 for a kind of an in-between timing

I guess if you 12 hatch you can do 2:59 Lair, but in real life that's basically the same as the 3:02 timing since you will often have a few seconds delay putting the hatch down

similarly, if you do a 9 over hatch you also click up at 2:59 on the expansion hatchery since I'm getting 1:22 hatch instead of 1:36

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 23 2024 13:00 GMT

I tried 6 pool, but it's an awkward timing because you end up droning to 7, making an overlord, but it's not on time for the lings

so you have to do

6 pool
6 overlord
drone to 7
6 lings

but you're very slightly larva blocking yourself

I got it down at :47 after having enough minerals at :46, if anyone can get a :46 timing OR a faster 3rd pair of lings without losing a whole drone I want to see it

https://repmastered.app/game/aAw15QUpee98uO-gCxMgt6bp_HkqI_1iBsFDCVtFeCE

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 23 2024 13:34 GMT

7 pool is also slightly weird, you can go

7 pool
8 overlord
1 ling
wait a few seconds for the rest of the lings

I made the overlord 2 seconds too late so maybe you can optimize it to get it just right

0:53 7 pool
https://repmastered.app/game/pioUloFL2gpoUDFeZzJgnLWlHAAn0E_LhHmAu82XAvk

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 23 2024 15:21 GMT

#10

8 pool is actually quite nice

8 pool
9 overlord

and you start 3 pairs of lings as the pool starts

I got it at :58, but I got enough minerals at :56 so it's possible to improve

https://repmastered.app/game/LzAb8FLOUcShPjjM7xRCnfZQYu0OLkFdfXI3y2CwIpc

iopq

United States1068 Posts

May 07 2024 10:06 GMT

#11

Drone timings:

0:00
0:14
0:22 (can anyone get 0:21?) EDIT: 0:21 is possible
0:32
0:38

Quatari

Australia48 Posts

May 08 2024 13:30 GMT

#12

Have you started documenting, and if so, is it available yet? I wrote a hand-crafted bot (ZZZKBot) that is known for its 4 pool build order. It made me think that the botting and/or machine learning community might be interested in comparing timings (best, average, etc), although the map and starting position matter. With a little effort, it would be easy to calculate for a bot because it can run many times sped-up, on a variety of maps and starting positions, against a passive bot opponent. Theoretically, a bot could also be designed to examine a replay and try to mimic its build order and building placement, and see if it can match the timings and perhaps optimize it even further.

Quatari

Australia48 Posts

May 08 2024 17:01 GMT

#13

BTW, the best (and worst) timings for various build orders can be seen at https://www.basil-ladder.net/build_orders.html, at least for the maps that the bots have played on. E.g. for 4 pool, the best timing placed the pool at 0:34, 5 pool is 0:40, 7 pool is 0:51, 9 pool is 1:01, 11 pool is 1:28, 12 pool is 1:38.

The timings stated for a drone appears to be when the drone is completed (i.e. adds about 12-13 seconds?), not when it starts morphing. It also doesn't mention mutalisks, doesn't indicate extractor tricks, and doesn't provide a replay file. Most games were played on the SSCAIT map pool ((4)Fighting Spirit, (2)Heartbreak Ridge, (4)Icarus, (4)Jade, (4)La Mancha, (3)Neo Moon Glaive, (4)Python, (4)Roadrunner, (3)Tau Cross, (4)Andromeda, (2)Benzene, (4)Circuit Breaker, (2)Destination, (4)Empire of the Sun), although some bots also support other maps ((2)Overwatch(n), (3)Medusa 2.2_iCCup, (4)CircuitBreakers1.0, (4)Colosseum 2.0_iCCup, (4)Fighting Spirit, (4)Ground_Zero_2.0_iCCup).

Quatari

Australia48 Posts

May 08 2024 19:21 GMT

#14

From the BASIL data, assuming you drone up and make an overlord at 9, the best timings to start morphing drones seem to be 0:00, 0:13-0:14, 0:21-0:22, 0:32-0:33, 0:38-0:39, then Overlord, then 0:58-0:59, 1:11-1:12, 1:24-1:25, 1:39-1:40.

I summarized the best timings data from BASIL into the following list, sorted by build order:
4 Pool 4 Zergling:
Spawning Pool (0:34), Drone (0:56), Zergling (1:43)
5 Pool 4 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Spawning Pool (0:40), Zergling (1:49)
5 Pool 5 Creep Colony 4 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Spawning Pool (0:40), Drone (1:00), Creep Colony (1:13), Zergling (1:51)
5 Pool 5 Overlord 5 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Spawning Pool (0:40), Drone (1:00), Overlord (1:36), Zergling (1:49)
5 Pool 5 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Spawning Pool (0:40), Drone (1:00), Zergling (1:51)
5 Pool 6-8 Zerglings:
Drone (0:13), Spawning Pool (0:40), Drone (1:00), Drone (1:12), Zergling (1:49), Zergling (1:49), Zergling (1:49), Zergling (1:50), Overlord (2:01), Zergling (2:05), Zergling (2:05), Zergling (2:20), Zergling (2:21), Zergling (2:33), Zergling (2:34), Zergling (2:47), Zergling (2:48), Zergling (3:01), Zergling (3:02), Hatchery (3:04)
7 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Spawning Pool (0:51)
8 Extractor 9 Hatch 8 Pool 8 Overlord 8 Extractor 7 Creep Colony 7-12 Zerglings 13 Sunken Colony 18 Lair but a drone must have died before the hatch was placed:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Extractor (0:47), Drone (0:50), Drone (0:51), Drone (1:04), Hatchery (1:18), Spawning Pool (1:38), Drone (1:54), Overlord (2:20), Extractor (2:35), Creep Colony (2:38), Drone (2:47), Zergling (2:50), Zergling (2:51), Zergling (2:51), Zergling (2:51), Zergling (2:51), Zergling (2:51), Sunken Colony (2:57), Drone (2:59), Drone (3:02), Drone (3:08), Drone (3:16), Drone (3:28), Lair (3:31)
8 Extractor 9 Pool but a drone must have died before the pool was placed:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Extractor (0:47), Drone (0:50), Drone (0:51), Drone (1:04), Spawning Pool (1:09)
9 Extractor 9 Pool 8 Hatch but a drone must have died before the pool was placed:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Extractor (0:51), Drone (0:52), Drone (1:05), Spawning Pool (1:10), Hatchery (1:56)
9 Extractor 9 Hatch 8 Pool but a drone must have died before the hatchery was placed:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Extractor (0:51), Drone (0:52), Drone (1:05), Hatchery (1:18), Spawning Pool (1:38)
9 Hatch 9 Pool 8 Extractor:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Hatchery (1:12), Drone (1:29), Spawning Pool (1:38), Extractor (1:50), Drone (1:55), Drone (2:18), Overlord (2:25), Zergling (2:46)
9 Overlord 11 Hatch 10 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Hatchery (1:35), Spawning Pool (1:53)
9 Overlord 11 Hatch 11 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Hatchery (1:35), Drone (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53)
9 Overlord 11 Pool 11 Extractor 11 Hatch 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Spawning Pool (1:28), Drone (1:35), Extractor (1:35), Drone (1:38), Hatchery (2:04), Zergling (2:38)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 10 Pool 9 Extractor 13 Lair:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Extractor (1:58), Drone (2:03), Drone (2:10), Drone (2:23), Drone (2:30), Drone (2:35), Lair (2:52)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 Pool 10 Extractor 12 Lair 11 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Extractor (1:58), Drone (2:03), Drone (2:10), Drone (2:23), Lair (2:48), Zergling (3:03)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 Pool 10 Extractor 12 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Extractor (1:58), Drone (2:03), Drone (2:10), Drone (2:23), Zergling (3:03)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 Pool 10 Extractor 13 Lair:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Extractor (1:58), Drone (2:03), Drone (2:10), Drone (2:23), Drone (2:30), Lair (2:50)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 Pool 11 Extractor 12 Lair:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Drone (1:58), Extractor (2:02), Drone (2:15), Drone (2:21), Lair (3:01)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 Pool 12 Hatch 11 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:53), Drone (1:58), Drone (2:06), Hatchery (2:34), Zergling (3:04)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 12 Pool 11 Extractor 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Drone (1:40), Spawning Pool (1:44), Extractor (2:04), Zergling (3:15)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 13 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Drone (1:40), Drone (2:06), Spawning Pool (2:06)
9 Overlord 12 Hatch 16 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Hatchery (1:37), Drone (1:40), Drone (2:06), Drone (2:20), Drone (2:23), Drone (2:36), Spawning Pool (2:45)
9 Overlord 12 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Spawning Pool (1:38)
9 Overlord 13 Hatch 12 Pool:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Drone (1:11), Drone (1:24), Drone (1:37), Drone (1:52), Hatchery (1:52), Spawning Pool (2:03)
9 Overlord 9 Extractor 10 Pool 11 Lair 11-16 Zerglings 17 Drone 18 Hydra Den 17 Overlord 18 Hydralisk:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Extractor (1:14), Drone (1:21), Drone (1:24), Spawning Pool (1:30), Drone (1:39), Drone (1:52), Lair (2:20), Zergling (2:39), Zergling (2:39), Zergling (2:39), Zergling (2:39), Zergling (2:40), Zergling (2:40), Drone (2:48), Hydralisk Den (2:52), Overlord (3:15), Drone (3:17), Hydralisk (3:43)
9 Overlord 9 Hatch 9 Pool 9 Extractor 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Hatchery (1:20), Drone (1:30), Spawning Pool (1:33), Drone (1:43), Extractor (2:05), Drone (2:10), Drone (2:22), Zergling (2:56)
9 Overlord 9 Pool 10 Extractor 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Spawning Pool (1:14), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:31), Extractor (1:32), Drone (1:33), Zergling (2:27)
9 Overlord 9 Pool 10 Extractor 11 Hatch 10 Lair 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Spawning Pool (1:14), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:31), Extractor (1:32), Drone (1:33), Drone (1:47), Hatchery (2:06), Lair (2:27), Zergling (2:48)
9 Overlord 9 Pool 11 Extractor 11 Hatch 10 Lair 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Spawning Pool (1:14), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:35), Extractor (1:37), Drone (1:46), Hatchery (2:05), Lair (2:31), Zergling (2:47)
9 Overlord 9 Pool 12 Extractor 13 Hatch 12 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Overlord (1:06), Spawning Pool (1:14), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:31), Drone (1:35), Drone (1:52), Extractor (1:54), Drone (2:06), Drone (2:21), Hatchery (2:22), Zergling (2:40)
9 Pool 8 Creep Colony 8 Extractor 9 Sunken Colony 9 Overlord 9-14 Zerglings 15 Lair 15-16 Zerglings 17 Drone etc:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Creep Colony (1:13), Drone (1:18), Extractor (1:31), Drone (1:34), Drone (1:47), Sunken Colony (1:54), Overlord (2:10), Zergling (2:29), Zergling (2:29), Zergling (2:29), Zergling (2:30), Zergling (2:30), Zergling (2:30), Lair (2:38), Zergling (2:43), Zergling (2:44), Drone (2:58), Drone (3:07), Drone (3:20), Spire (3:43)
9 Pool 8 Extractor 9 Overlord 9 Zergling but a drone must have died before the overlord started morphing:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Drone (1:18), Drone (1:30), Overlord (1:49), Zergling (2:10)
9 Pool 8 Extractor 8 Overlord 8-17 Zerglings:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Overlord (1:37), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:24), Zergling (2:25), Zergling (2:38), Zergling (2:38), Zergling (2:52), Zergling (2:52), Zergling (3:09), Zergling (3:10), Zergling (3:25), Zergling (3:25), Zergling (3:38), Zergling (3:39), Hatchery (3:46)
9 Pool 8 Extractor 8 Overlord 8-17 Zerglings:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Overlord (1:37), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:24), Zergling (2:25), Zergling (2:38), Zergling (2:38), Zergling (2:52), Zergling (2:52), Zergling (3:09), Zergling (3:10), Zergling (3:25), Zergling (3:25), Zergling (3:38), Zergling (3:39), Overlord (4:01), Hatchery (4:03)
9 Pool 8 Extractor 9 Overlord 9-14 Zerglings 15 Lair:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Drone (1:18), Overlord (1:46), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:12), Lair (2:12)
9 Pool 8 Extractor 9 Overlord 9 Creep Colony but a drone must have died before the overlord started morphing:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Drone (1:18), Drone (1:30), Overlord (1:49), Creep Colony (1:58), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:12), Sunken Colony (2:15), Drone (2:21), Drone (2:35), Drone (2:49), Hatchery (2:52)
9 Pool 8 Extractor:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Extractor (1:08), Drone (1:15), Drone (1:18), Overlord (1:46), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:12), Zergling (2:25), Zergling (2:25), Lair (2:29)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 10 Extractor 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Drone (1:28), Drone (1:32), Extractor (1:34), Drone (1:39), Zergling (2:21)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 10 Hatch:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Drone (1:28), Drone (1:32), Hatchery (1:54)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 11 Hatch 10 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Drone (1:28), Drone (1:32), Drone (1:39), Hatchery (1:56), Zergling (2:20)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 8 Extractor 10 Lair:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Extractor (1:18), Drone (1:29), Drone (1:34), Drone (1:46), Lair (2:11)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 8 Extractor 8 Evolution Chamber 9-17 Zerglings:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Extractor (1:18), Drone (1:29), Evolution Chamber (1:38), Drone (1:40), Drone (1:55), Zergling (2:21), Zergling (2:21), Zergling (2:21), Zergling (2:21), Zergling (2:25), Zergling (2:26), Zergling (2:41), Zergling (2:42), Zergling (2:54), Zergling (2:55), Zergling (3:07), Zergling (3:08), Zergling (3:21), Zergling (3:22), Zergling (3:35), Zergling (3:36), Hatchery (3:36)
9 Pool 8 Overlord 8 Extractor 9 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Overlord (1:16), Extractor (1:18), Drone (1:29), Drone (1:34), Zergling (2:21)
9 Pool 9 Overlord 10 Hatch 9 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Drone (1:13), Overlord (1:37), Drone (1:52), Hatchery (1:59), Zergling (2:12)
9 Pool 9 Overlord 9-14 Zerglings 15 Hatch:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Drone (1:13), Overlord (1:37), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:10), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Zergling (2:11), Hatchery (2:13)
9 Pool 9 Overlord 9 Hatch 8 Zergling:
Drone (0:13), Drone (0:26), Drone (0:34), Drone (0:45), Drone (0:51), Spawning Pool (1:01), Drone (1:13), Overlord (1:37), Hatchery (1:53), Zergling (2:11)

If the timings are better than you expect, maybe one of the maps I mentioned has starting position(s) that have unusually good mining rates. More modern maps might be better, or worse.

Quatari

Australia48 Posts

May 08 2024 19:32 GMT

#15

I should also mention that when the bots play games, the Game Speed slider in the game lobby is set to Normal (not Fastest), so the latency is a bit lower than Fastest (in v1.16 anyway).

iopq

United States1068 Posts

May 10 2024 13:43 GMT

#16

My 1:00 pool beats the bot's best

I think because at that point the drone popping out over the hatchery can kill your timing

EDIT:
https://repmastered.app/game/RVhlFBjiKamQM70AP1_gRqEiI3pHaDnr-R3ID-lEVyo

EDIT2:

Drones are made in 12.6 seconds so I can also give the timings for when they are done on my end

EDIT3:

When I watch replays it takes more than 12.6 seconds to pop out of the egg so I don't know how you measure when it's "done"

iopq

United States1068 Posts

May 17 2024 11:36 GMT

#17

I've improved the timing of my 7th drone to 0:21

iopq

United States1068 Posts

June 14 2024 12:01 GMT

#18

it might look something like this:

[image loading]

iopq

United States1068 Posts

June 14 2024 12:29 GMT

#19

here the 6/7/8 pool stand out as being suboptimal, so if anyone can get better times, these would be the best places to start

Peeano

Netherlands5353 Posts

June 14 2024 22:28 GMT

#20

Nice to see a chart! Good work. This can be a great tool for Zergs to up their game. I hope this can be expanded even further.

Do we have any flowchart pros at TL to make this read even easier? I already like how you can tell time by the vertical spacing.

An interactice flowchart where it can show general pros and cons of a certain opener when you hover the mouse over the box would be sick.

iopq

United States1068 Posts

June 17 2024 11:07 GMT

#21

I tried on the left L spawn and it seems the early builds are much slower because the best 4 patches are on the right or top Apocalypse spawns

For example, 4 pool at 0:36 is my best on left L spawns, 5 pool at 0:41

so for the fastest 9 pool, by the time you get to 9 workers there are enough fast mining patches to compensate, but for 4 pool it's just slower so you shouldn't try it because the game is often decided by the lings getting there seconds before the enemy is ready to respond

iopq

United States1068 Posts

August 30 2024 03:26 GMT

#22

9 pool then 6 lings then hatch -> hatch at 2:09 but I feel like it might be possible to do better

I tried 9 pool 8 overlord and no gas trick and it was a second slower (I didn't get larva blocked because overlord was ordered at 1:11. but you lose less money to the gas trick than delaying your drones)

mtcn77

Turkey674 Posts

September 11 2024 18:51 GMT

#23

On June 14 2024 21:01 iopq wrote:
it might look something like this:

[image loading]

When is the overhatch drone time? 1:21 is hatchery time, when is the #10 drone time?
PS: according to the timetable, zergling times are;
4 pool: 1:40,
5 pool: 1:48,
6 pool: 1:55,
7 pool: 2:01,
8-9 pool: 2:06. What are the times between bases for slow zerglings? 26 seconds is quite a lot despite map sizes.
PS 2: that is 98 frames. I think you can get to any near base in that time period except 96x96 and above cross spawns.

8882

2720 Posts

September 12 2024 23:01 GMT

#24

On April 18 2024 23:02 iopq wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm talking about ladder maps. Take any position, they should be roughly equivalent (except left might be worse in some builds)

If you mean that minerals are on the left side from the hatch - you can use the "select overlord + larva -> press stop" trick -> to move the larvas to the left side of the hatch.

Then the eggs are on the left side, so technically you can move the drones to minerals that 1 second faster.
(although later on selecting them is a bit painful)

iopq

United States1068 Posts

September 13 2024 08:23 GMT

#25

On September 13 2024 08:01 8882 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I've already been doing that, but I usually move them a second or two before I order the drone (it's pretty hard to time it, though)

if you group them all in the same place, the eggs will be in the same location making the drones stuck when they don't have a command card yet, so it's most efficient to only get them a part of the way there or to alternate ordering from not moved and moved larvae

but still, the top location in dominator just mines faster than the bottom (which is left side minerals with the #2 mineral removed and the #10 mineral added)

the best 5 are all 75 mineral a minute on Dominator, which is only possible with manual boosting on the bottom spawn when you use the #8 mineral and perfectly boost it every cycle

it's also possible on the #9 if you move it slightly to the left, but not too much where it boosts every other time - but it's not perfectly repeatable every time

the #1 and the #3 are also manually boostable by clicking on the mineral when the drone is 1/3 of the way to it

so it ends up you need to move the larvae to the left side while boosting three different mineral patches, get a lucky auto-boost on the #9 just to match the automatic mining of the top for four of the patches, and the top spot still wins for 5 drones and more

mtcn77

Turkey674 Posts

September 13 2024 17:44 GMT

#26

Can we separate low economy vs high economy builds since I know most of Flash's timings are high economy, meaning seconds matter.

iopq

United States1068 Posts

September 14 2024 10:18 GMT

#27

On September 12 2024 03:51 mtcn77 wrote:
When is the overhatch drone time? 1:21 is hatchery time, when is the #10 drone time?

You can get a 1:26 drone right before the third larva pops on the hatchery

This makes overhatch the most economical build without any blocking of the hatchery larva

so you can do 1:21 hatch, no larva block, then 2:08 third hatchery at third at 11 if you're going three hatch before pool (2:10 drone, another drone, 2:34 pool)

if you do a normal 11 hatch, it's more like nat hatch 1:31, third expo hatch 2:06 and 2:31 pool

so the biggest economy you can have without getting larva blocked is actually overhatch, but you need a good spawn and to boost your minerals

9 hatch is further delayed, you get a 1:12 hatch, 1:18 drone (6 seconds larva block) and then like a 2:11 third hatchery because you had to extractor trick to prevent getting larva blocked again and a 2:37 pool

so by the time the third hatchery finishes, the overhatch build wins against anything economy-wise

iopq

United States1068 Posts

January 26 2025 12:07 GMT

#28

one thing I forgot to mention is if you upgrade the expansion hatchery to a Lair, it needs to be done for 8 seconds to get two larvae at lair immediately

so if you 11 hatch you shouldn't upgrade the Lair hatch for a 2:48 clickup (a mistake I've made myself) even if it's a couple of seconds late

you need to do like overhatch into drones into pool + gas to upgrade the expansion hatchery

edit:

I've tried it and the hatch timing vs. gas timing is unreliable. I strongly suggest just doing gas on either 2:00 or 2:14

iopq

United States1068 Posts

March 30 2025 13:21 GMT

#29

third base, 7 mutas, and +1 started by 5:27

it's with speed, but only one pair of lings

larva is optimized (pops up right before Lair) despite it being a 9 hatch build because my larva gets blocked for approximately 15 seconds (so it's like I skipped a larva and with the 1:14 hatch it's equivalent to 1:29)

would have been better if I placed the hatch faster since I had money for it at 1:12

https://repmastered.icza.net/game/iSYzS18ZCKWgsdYP3948Mj8hWhYxWebLUSQzOtbWzkc

iopq

United States1068 Posts

April 22 2025 09:57 GMT

#30

I tried with three hatcheries to get larva out faster, but because the gas goes down later and we don't have the money to start mining it before spire, we're 100 gas short (so we can skip speed to get the same timing, but get a third hatchery instead)

but without speed there's no guarantee we don't die to stim rushes without a colony already set up to morph

so an entirely unrealistic build where the terran leaves you alone would be:

1:12 9 hatch
1:18 drone
1:28 overlord
1:39 gas trick to get another drone
2:01 pool
2:06 gas
2:54 Lair
18 ov
18 3rd hatch
21 spire
21 gas
immediately colony
26 ov
26 ov

start 7 mutas and then wait for gas for +1
5:24 we start the +1, but we don't have speed (but we have 3 hatcheries so we should start it anyway)

Normal

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