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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32554 I played vs some terran, on Luna. I had nat and 2nd nat, was taking another expo, he didn't even bother taking more then 1st nat nor making more then +1 atack up. His first and second atack turned out to be a failure - still, he won  Any ideas on what should I improve/change in my gameplay? edit: new link, same replay: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32555 I launched it on single player and it worked, it's 1.15.1 | ||
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ToT)SiLeNcE(
Germany590 Posts
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
First of all if you generally improve your play, you will get so far ahead vs a guy like that that you can't possibly lose. For example, citadel then a long pause is inefficient. Better macro never hurts. As for why you lost: you had a problem that I and many other protoss players have on luna despite level differences. When the two players are next to each other (11 and 1 or 5 and 7) the terran is very likely to push through the mineral only between them. This means he pushes through no open area before reaching the area outside your choke. The key is to not engage him in a way that benefits the terran. If he has tanks lined up along the bridge outside the mineral only, do not engage. Instead, have a large army towards the middle of the map lying in wait while you pump as many more as you can to attack from the base side of the entrance. A shuttle with zealots is very helpful, and arbiters for stasis + cloaking as soon as you can get them also help shut this push down. Once he has pushed almost entirely through the choke into the somewhat more open area is when you need to engage him with everything you've got. If you attack move into the bridge you get diced, and if you wait until he's pushed all the way to your natural you are in trouble also, so the timing is key. Edit: observer usage is key also... you need to have a clear view of his push so you know exactly when and how to engage. | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
 From the 2nd sentence I clearly read: that terran sux xD Actually he is a nice guy, we talked that game over, any advice for him? Ye, I saw I was getting owned over and over again on that bridge, but I actually did what u advice here, in ~18th minute he moved out of that bridge, and before he reached my nat, I made a circle and attacked from both sides, but still it ended up crappy. Guess I lacked those zealot-bombs - that must have worked since he can't turret-up most of the places ^^ | ||
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
On September 16 2007 03:45 Scorpion wrote: You could have just avoided that push entirely and gone for his main base to hinder reinforcements/potentially rape his base. That's what I usually do when Terran decided to be gay and push through the mineral only. Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
The difference between your play and a better player's play would be that the better play may have better macro, which'll help him win those close battles, and less sloppy micro (which'll give them more units in later battles). You retreated a bit late at times, and it does make a difference, losing 3 goons here, 5 goons there (considering how close a lot of the battles were). There was not a single point in the game where you were ahead, MAYBE except for the time you had a dt at his natural. After that point, it was always either even or he was a bit ahead. Just keep doing what you're doing strategically. If you can get your mechanics a bit better, you'll win a lot more consistantly. Also, if you're friends with that guy, play with him a lot more. You guys seem pretty even (PS: your nexus at the top left base pissed me off!  ) | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
@Purind: I thought P is ahead of T from the start ( I red it on artofbw~). And if we (that terran and me) are even will I learn from our games? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning you, it's just that lots of ppl on the BN tell me: "u have to play with better gamers to get better urself", so I'm kinda confused. Sadly, I'm not able to powergame with him, he plays like twice a month :/ Also, could you give some tips for his gameplay? And what's a timing push in TvP? (PS: What about that nexus? xD) edit: sorry, a typo :/ I mean PvT timing push (or is there no such thing for toss?) | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
it would have given you this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=57022 where fonger writes... On July 26 2007 17:37 fonger wrote: As I understand it, a timing push is where you build your game plan around attacking at a certain time, sacrificing some SCV production/expansions in order to have maximum attacking power at that point. Differs from the "standard" play where a terran will just get 3 or 4 bases and go for 200/200 (a "macro war"). I guess your standard timing push in TvP is 4 facs ASAP after taking your natural against a double-expanding toss, or 5/6 facs building to presumably 120+ supply before moving out and kicking ass. The former gives toss less time to react, while the latter will just give you a bigger army. I generally follow my 4-fac push with a 3rd base pretty quick regardless of the outcome, while 6 fac play I'll do my best to end it on two bases. Better Terrans may be able to give a more accurate explanation Edit: I guess the reasoning behind it is that you make the most of having a stronger production and weaker economy vs his stronger economy and weaker production by massing up, then hit him just before it's about to switch to him having a stronger economy AND stronger production (since this will be the point where you have the biggest army relative to his). That's my take on it anyway. Edit2: Nada's 2fac is another interesting example, although that falls more under the category of "timing rush." It differs from the average 2fac build by hitting somewhat later, but with a larger and better-equipped army. Effective against a fast-expanding toss from what I've seen. I'm getting really tired of doing searches of other pple  | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
his opening midas FD was really bad, a good player would've gotten into his base and laid mines and GG'd it right there. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On September 16 2007 04:18 micronesia wrote: Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. well the main point is to scare him into pushing further where he can get flanked. if u stop him there ur fine and can take the rest of the map and w/e | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
On September 16 2007 07:42 lastshadow wrote: do not take this following comment as aggresive but his opening midas FD was really bad, a good player would've gotten into his base and laid mines and GG'd it right there. What is Midas FD?? | ||
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
FD is 'fake double' where he only makes 1 factory. Midas is that formation with a tank and marines. Someone correct me if there's more to it than that. | ||
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LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
On September 16 2007 11:06 micronesia wrote: FD is 'fake double' where he only makes 1 factory. Midas is that formation with a tank and marines. Someone correct me if there's more to it than that. Yeah and its a rush, with like 5 marines, a tank, a vulture (upgraded w/ mines), and like 2 scvs. it cant relaly be considered a fake double because most terrans tend to do that rush so you should expect it. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On September 16 2007 04:18 micronesia wrote: Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. It's more of a style thing. If you have enough army to break his push which is in a semi-unflankible position, you should be able to break a lightly defended main that rallies everything to the front. I do think trading bases is good with protoss, you can rebuild mass gateways with 1 pylon and 1 probe, while terran need more time to make a new one. While your army is raping his main, make dark templars to wear down his main army, he'll have no scanners. This game for instance, a counter to the main while making DTs, I'm sure there are better examples out there though. Ah yeah I suppose higher tech helps >_< Bleh I wish I could've watched that rep, no cd w/ me atm | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On September 16 2007 18:29 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: Dude, PvT for begginers is the easiest match up in the whole SC game, so like [Joyo] said: X [jOyO] United States. September 16 2007 02:06. Posts 889 PM Profile Buddy Quote TvP Luna is one of the hardest fucking things to win, stop crying and learn to play! Are you fucking kidding me? You can follow him out. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
There was literally hundreds of things that went wrong, you could have lost in ten minutes, but luckily, your opponent wasn't very good either. Don't be discouraged, everyone was bad at one point or another; keep on practising, and you will get better. Some of the things that bothered me in particular: - Rally your workers. It's not a big deal at the moment, but you would have to do it sooner or later. - Get Zealots earlier. You can start getting Zealots after you have 12-18 Dragoons. If you had more Zealots, you could have potentially won. - Get more observers. At this point, get about 6 or more observers and scatter them across the map. This way, you wouldn't have to worry about mines and losing Dragoons mindlessly. You may also choose to upgrade sight range and/or speed. You lost about 20 Goons throughout the game to mines, which could have been easily saved if you had enough observers. It was particularly painful to see the five goon explosion near your min only at around 13 minutes. - Nexus placements. You are not andriode, and he's retarded at placing his CCs anyway. Just because he wins with poorly positioned bases, doesn't mean poorly positioned bases give you wins. If there is a mine, clear it with goons, suicide zealots, or w/e. Don't place a Nexus too far away from the patches unless you have a huge advantage or it's late game and you have too many probes. In any case, this should be avoided. Also, your natural's Nexus placement could have been better as well. There was nothing you did "wrong" in particular, he was just overall a better player. Keep on practising. GL ^^ | ||
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CustomXSpunjah
United States1093 Posts
On September 16 2007 18:29 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: Dude, PvT for begginers is the easiest match up in the whole SC game, so like [Joyo] said: X [jOyO] United States. September 16 2007 02:06. Posts 889 PM Profile Buddy Quote TvP Luna is one of the hardest fucking things to win, stop crying and learn to play! because we want to help our fellow TL'ers by insulting them, what a bunch of assholes.... | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
On September 17 2007 11:12 CustomXSpunjah wrote: because we want to help our fellow TL'ers by insulting them, what a bunch of assholes.... I think Infested was being sarcastic of what Joyo said | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
What about his CC's? He only had his nat through entire game. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
1) If you want to skip robotics and go for templar tech, you must time yourself better. Your citadel was a few seconds late and your templar archives was very late. Now I saw that you tried to get 2 gates, and range before you got templar archives. This can be very risky because you already spent you first 150 minerals on a citadel. In order to defend a rush, you must sacrifice either 1 gateway or the range upgrade. At this point I suggest you sacrifice the range, because if you built your archives and gateways faster, then you'd have more goons to stall time from his rush, while your dts would be ready faster. If the timing is right, by the time you've hit n run back to your base, the dt's should be nearly done. 2) You didn't do too much damage with your darktemplars, and you switched to robotics. This already means you are a little behind. Of course the worst scenario is if he got no damage. You atleast stalled his nat a few minutes. This may have given you a slight advantage or levelled the field, but you soon let it tip in his favor. Number 3 is why. 3) You lose way too many goons needlessly. Both during his rush and after his rush, there were about 4~5 dragoons you could have saved. But instead you either let them die because you didn't micro them, or you ran them into mines. Against FD, you have to be very careful of mines in your path. Since you don't have obs, you have 2 choice. Stay and wait for obs, in which case you are double teching, and so you will be behind units. Or tech later, and produce zealots to clear the way. (if you are planning to attempt a dt sneak that is). In your case you chose to tech to robotics, which means you will be behind in units eventually. But if you use the correct fighting techniques, you could utilize that to your advantage. 4) After your dt harrass, you built a forge. This is a bad choice. Why do you need a forge? 1 forge + 1 cannon = 300 minerals, which could be 2 gateways or 3 zealots. Remember, because you went templar and robotics tech, a double tech, you are behind because of the fact that you did little damage. If you are scared of vulture harrass, keep your goons by your bases and use observers to see the vultures movements and clear the mines. By building a forge and a cannon you put yourself behind even more. 5) At around 10 minutes. You killed his weak push. That was a good choice. But you seem to think you were ahead at this point. No, infact you only salvaged the lead you lost from the reasons listed above. This move brought you points, but it did not put you ahead of him. In fact your next move puts you slightly behind again. You continued on to attack his nat, stepped over a mine (that was even detected) and let 2 tanks kill 5 goons. That, my friend, just lost you nearly as many points as you gained. 6) Then at 12:30 you made a HUGE mistake. You expanded. That's great. He sent vultures around. That's fine. You lost 5 dragoons to mines, and his vultures just ran away. 5 goons is a lot. If we add up all the dragoons you lost so far due to careless mistakes, you'd have an entire group of dragoons at your control at this point. Then those same vultures went around and attacked the probes in your base, cutting off your economy in half for a few seconds. The forge that you made so early has now failed to do it's job. You spent money on defense and still he found an loose spot. This adds more to your disadvantage. 7) Once he's done with the vultures, he starts to move out. Notice when he moves out he has 104 supply while you have 81 supply. Those little points you lost listed above? (careless goons, double tech, forge, harrass) This is the result of that. He timed his push perfectly. Now the only that will save you is amazing battle technique. 8) Here is your main problem. Remember you chose to double tech to templars and robotics early in the game. This means you will have less units, but you will be able to use better battling techniques. Here's what I mean. Shuttle + Templars. Now to be honest upgrading psionic storm is risky. Because you've already spent your minerals on other things, and it wouldn't have been done in time to block his push anyways. So in this case you are better off getting shuttle+dt. One of the biggest mistakes terrans make is having no anti air. On luna there aren't many spots to build turrets, and they usually forget to make 1 or 2 goliaths. This means dropping a dt on top of his tanks, then lifting them up when he scans will be an excellent way to cut off his units and buy time for you to catch up in unit count. Also, many terrans make mistakes in mine placements.... especially when they push. The siege their tanks, lay mines, then move the tanks forward and siege, next to the mines. When you see this with your observer, you can drop your DT by the tank, close enough for the mine to react, and then force the mine to kill his own units. If you watch the replay carefully, you'll see a couple of times where a dt drop would be perfect to kill of 2/3 tanks. This is what I mean about using your double to it's full advantage. 9) You mentioned that you had 3 expos while he had 2 expos, but you still lost and don't understand why. The main reason is because your 3rd expo was either too early or too late. What I mean is, if your expansion was earlier (and you didn't allow it to get harrassed) then you would have had the 3 base economic advantage. Meanwhile if you expanded later and used the minerals on units instead, you would probably have had a smaller unit disadvantage. At this point you are already behind, so choosing to expand while buying time for the economic advantage to kick in is a better choice. 10) You did will to bock off the first real push at around 15 minutes. But you can't be thinking "oh I won that battle". Because you did not. You neither won it nor lost it. A terran push is only blocked when you effectively kill the entire push. Killing half the push and retreating like you did only bought you time. Now don't get me wrong, you made the right chioce. If you left it alone then you would have been in a worst situation, but you must understand that you are not safe yet. At this point, you've stalled his attack, and your mineral advantage is starting to kick in. He has no expansion, that means the longer the battle last, the better you're off. This is important to keep in mind. I would suggest you start to upgrade storm at this point, when your macro is running and the money is coming in... but you don't have gas. This striked me as odd beacuse you were running off of 2 assimilators and didn't use much gas after the initial dbl tech, so I checked your expos. Lo and behold, you had 1 probe mining from your nat. 11) Also at around 17 minutes, you kept losing bits of your forces to his tanks. One by one a goon or zealot would stray into his range and get hit, which would trigger the units around it to attack the tanks. Then you'd pull back and get hit more in the process, and end up losing 1 or 2 units. This happened quite a few times. Again if you added up all the units you loss carelessly, you'd have a much larger army by now. 12) The second time he crawled out of the bridge (around 18 minutes) you made the right choice by splitting your units and flanking him. But in this case you had almost no zealots. The first attack you blocked with mainly goons. But now you should have more zealots to aid you in battle. The result, however, wasn't so bad. Thanks to your flank you stalled his push again, but you didn't kill it. By the third time he pushed out, you should have templars+storm, zealots and goons ready to take him on. But the third battle, you let your units fall into his trap. Your zealots ran into his mines and died, your goons were split and got killed by tanks. Basically you let everything fall apart. His minerals were very low, and there was not much more he would have been able to do if you held off this attack. In general, you need to read the situation better. You need to realize what advantages you have and what disadvantages you have, and find a way to utilize the advantages to it's full potential. | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
Thanks alot, actually I never thought of playing SC like that - counting all the disadvanteages together etc - it's a new view of the game for me and I'm hoping switching to this way of thinking will let me improve a whole lot  Would it be possible - you watched the replay very caferully no doubt - to point out terran's mistakes aswell? | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
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Flaccid
8845 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4080/pvtlunazj2.jpg) edit: Actually Scorpion beat me to it. | ||
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
1) You opening build is a little off. Luna is a map where the ramp is a little wide, and you can't wall. Thus, a lot of protosses will be usually open with a zealot before core build, trying an early zealot rush. Since the positions here are 5/7 the rush is highly likely (fortunately you didn't get rushed). What you should do is watch your economy and time it so that your factory is not late while you don't stop scv production. You also want to start that second depot a little faster so you don't get your population stuck. These are minor details, but in the heat of a zealot rush, they can make a big difference. (also, build ur depot at 9 supply, not 10) 2) If you want to go 2 fac, then you want ur second fac much much faster. You opened with a 5 rine 1 fac and added a 2nd fac after your add-on was done. It's a very weird build order. You seemed to open with a regular FD build, but then you switched it half way... as a result your expansion was late, AND your rush failed (because you didn't have a 2nd fac ready in time). If you wanted to rush 2 fac, you want to build the 2nd factory much faster, and cut down on marine production. Otherwise I'd suggest you just build a CC at ur nat when you move out to attack. 3) Your micro was poor. Your unit was far superior to his defense. You could have broken his defense and killed him early on if you had the correct micro. Because you're fighting up a ramp, you want to be extra careful. Send a vulture up first (with your tank/marine/scv right behind it of course) and lay a mine right at the middle of the ramp. When he attacks your tank, move it back and immediately stick your scvs to repair your tank, and not attack. This way you force your opponent's units to move away from the ramp (which will allow you to move up) or he will attack the mine, which will allow an extra hit from your tank and marine, or he will ignore it and let the mine detonate, which is probably best scenario (unless you screw up and lose your own units to the blast). The key point to any kind of rush is to save that damn tank. If you lose that tank, then the rush is mostly going to fail, and you will be behind. If you don't think you can win, don't engage... lay mine and fall back. Whatever you do, don't lose that first tank. 4) When he killed your tank and vulture, you kept attack with scvs and marines. While running away now really doesn't make much of a difference, you should have moved atleast 1 scv around his goons and check his tech. Your initial scouting scv didn't survive long enough to see his tech. You had plenty of time and 3 scvs up his ramp. Obviously you weren't going to do much damage, with scvs against dragoons. So using those scvs to scout his tech would have been extremely beneficial, and would probably make up for the disadvantage you got from losing that first tank, because you would have seen his templar tech.... and when a Terran knows a templar rush is coming from the protoss before it happens, he'll probably win the game. 5) Now your expansion was way late. This is partly due to the fact that you chose a weird build order to begin with, and your neglegence to scout when you had the chance. Now you know he went DT tech by now. You have two choices: go for a timing rush, or contain and out expand him. You chose to try a timing push. A good choice because the distance is close. But you didn't do it correctly. First of all, you need to build an academy and scan before your rush. A protoss who starts with a templar rush will most likely leave a dt in front of your base to stall that timing push that will come. If you want to do a timing push, you can't let that dt stall you, so you'll need that scan asap. If you build your scan around the time your nat starts, then by the time you begin your push you should have 100 mana on each scan, giving you 4 scans which is enough to set your push up and build turrets. When you rushed, you didn't even have an academy. Second, you split your units. You allowed your vultures to get ahead of your tanks, and let them get picked off by dragoons. Then when they were all killed you sieged up your tanks and find yourself facing 10 goons and a dt with 4 tanks.... your rush failed miserably and are now no longer in the lead of the game. 6) Very good harrassment with vultures. Not much to say about it except that you hit him right where it hurts which tipped the game in your favor. Your decision to use the bridge to attack from now on was correct, and is ultimately the reason you won. However, you made it much more difficult than it should have been. You set up a tank line by the bridge, and set up mines there as well. This is an ideal situation for you to expand to that mineral only. Your initial timing push failed, which means a second rush will probably not be effective unless your opponent messes up. As you will see your pushes got cut off a couple of times. But you didn't lose many tanks, which is why you were able to hold your ground. 7) As you know by now by your vulture harrassment earlier, you saw he had a mineral expansion at 9. This puts a clock on your push. If you don't kill him fast enough, you will soon run out of minerals while he still has money coming in. This problem would have been fixed easily if you just used 400 minerals (which you had at almost the entire point of the rush) to get that min only at the 6, you wouldn't be on any trouble with resources. 8) Your overall battle tactic was farily good. I would only suggest to be more careful with your vultures. You lose them too often needlessly both during battle and between battles. Also you want to start upgrading +1 at your armory sometime. If your opponent kept up with upgrades it may have changed the game. 9) Keep up with scv production. You like to bring scvs with you to your attacks. That's fine as long as you continue to make more and more so your economy doesn't suffer. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
On September 16 2007 03:45 Scorpion wrote: You could have just avoided that push entirely and gone for his main base to hinder reinforcements/potentially rape his base. That's what I usually do when Terran decided to be gay and push through the mineral only. Most terrans when they push through the min only on luna mine the middle so they know in advance when you do that and can just move back. | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
On September 24 2007 05:40 Live2Win wrote: 11) Also at around 17 minutes, you kept losing bits of your forces to his tanks. One by one a goon or zealot would stray into his range and get hit, which would trigger the units around it to attack the tanks. Then you'd pull back and get hit more in the process, and end up losing 1 or 2 units. This happened quite a few times. Again if you added up all the units you loss carelessly, you'd have a much larger army by now. Use hold ground and constantly look at the minimap for any troop movement using your observers. this way you can pull them back before they get hit, and if they do get hit, they wont run the wrong way. | ||
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