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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32554 I played vs some terran, on Luna. I had nat and 2nd nat, was taking another expo, he didn't even bother taking more then 1st nat nor making more then +1 atack up. His first and second atack turned out to be a failure - still, he won  Any ideas on what should I improve/change in my gameplay? edit: new link, same replay: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32555 I launched it on single player and it worked, it's 1.15.1 | ||
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ToT)SiLeNcE(
Germany590 Posts
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
First of all if you generally improve your play, you will get so far ahead vs a guy like that that you can't possibly lose. For example, citadel then a long pause is inefficient. Better macro never hurts. As for why you lost: you had a problem that I and many other protoss players have on luna despite level differences. When the two players are next to each other (11 and 1 or 5 and 7) the terran is very likely to push through the mineral only between them. This means he pushes through no open area before reaching the area outside your choke. The key is to not engage him in a way that benefits the terran. If he has tanks lined up along the bridge outside the mineral only, do not engage. Instead, have a large army towards the middle of the map lying in wait while you pump as many more as you can to attack from the base side of the entrance. A shuttle with zealots is very helpful, and arbiters for stasis + cloaking as soon as you can get them also help shut this push down. Once he has pushed almost entirely through the choke into the somewhat more open area is when you need to engage him with everything you've got. If you attack move into the bridge you get diced, and if you wait until he's pushed all the way to your natural you are in trouble also, so the timing is key. Edit: observer usage is key also... you need to have a clear view of his push so you know exactly when and how to engage. | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
 From the 2nd sentence I clearly read: that terran sux xD Actually he is a nice guy, we talked that game over, any advice for him? Ye, I saw I was getting owned over and over again on that bridge, but I actually did what u advice here, in ~18th minute he moved out of that bridge, and before he reached my nat, I made a circle and attacked from both sides, but still it ended up crappy. Guess I lacked those zealot-bombs - that must have worked since he can't turret-up most of the places ^^ | ||
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
On September 16 2007 03:45 Scorpion wrote: You could have just avoided that push entirely and gone for his main base to hinder reinforcements/potentially rape his base. That's what I usually do when Terran decided to be gay and push through the mineral only. Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
The difference between your play and a better player's play would be that the better play may have better macro, which'll help him win those close battles, and less sloppy micro (which'll give them more units in later battles). You retreated a bit late at times, and it does make a difference, losing 3 goons here, 5 goons there (considering how close a lot of the battles were). There was not a single point in the game where you were ahead, MAYBE except for the time you had a dt at his natural. After that point, it was always either even or he was a bit ahead. Just keep doing what you're doing strategically. If you can get your mechanics a bit better, you'll win a lot more consistantly. Also, if you're friends with that guy, play with him a lot more. You guys seem pretty even (PS: your nexus at the top left base pissed me off!  ) | ||
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Mashimaru
Romania17 Posts
@Purind: I thought P is ahead of T from the start ( I red it on artofbw~). And if we (that terran and me) are even will I learn from our games? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning you, it's just that lots of ppl on the BN tell me: "u have to play with better gamers to get better urself", so I'm kinda confused. Sadly, I'm not able to powergame with him, he plays like twice a month :/ Also, could you give some tips for his gameplay? And what's a timing push in TvP? (PS: What about that nexus? xD) edit: sorry, a typo :/ I mean PvT timing push (or is there no such thing for toss?) | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
it would have given you this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=57022 where fonger writes... On July 26 2007 17:37 fonger wrote: As I understand it, a timing push is where you build your game plan around attacking at a certain time, sacrificing some SCV production/expansions in order to have maximum attacking power at that point. Differs from the "standard" play where a terran will just get 3 or 4 bases and go for 200/200 (a "macro war"). I guess your standard timing push in TvP is 4 facs ASAP after taking your natural against a double-expanding toss, or 5/6 facs building to presumably 120+ supply before moving out and kicking ass. The former gives toss less time to react, while the latter will just give you a bigger army. I generally follow my 4-fac push with a 3rd base pretty quick regardless of the outcome, while 6 fac play I'll do my best to end it on two bases. Better Terrans may be able to give a more accurate explanation Edit: I guess the reasoning behind it is that you make the most of having a stronger production and weaker economy vs his stronger economy and weaker production by massing up, then hit him just before it's about to switch to him having a stronger economy AND stronger production (since this will be the point where you have the biggest army relative to his). That's my take on it anyway. Edit2: Nada's 2fac is another interesting example, although that falls more under the category of "timing rush." It differs from the average 2fac build by hitting somewhat later, but with a larger and better-equipped army. Effective against a fast-expanding toss from what I've seen. I'm getting really tired of doing searches of other pple  | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
his opening midas FD was really bad, a good player would've gotten into his base and laid mines and GG'd it right there. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On September 16 2007 04:18 micronesia wrote: Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. well the main point is to scare him into pushing further where he can get flanked. if u stop him there ur fine and can take the rest of the map and w/e | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
On September 16 2007 07:42 lastshadow wrote: do not take this following comment as aggresive but his opening midas FD was really bad, a good player would've gotten into his base and laid mines and GG'd it right there. What is Midas FD?? | ||
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micronesia
United States24709 Posts
FD is 'fake double' where he only makes 1 factory. Midas is that formation with a tank and marines. Someone correct me if there's more to it than that. | ||
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LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
On September 16 2007 11:06 micronesia wrote: FD is 'fake double' where he only makes 1 factory. Midas is that formation with a tank and marines. Someone correct me if there's more to it than that. Yeah and its a rush, with like 5 marines, a tank, a vulture (upgraded w/ mines), and like 2 scvs. it cant relaly be considered a fake double because most terrans tend to do that rush so you should expect it. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On September 16 2007 04:18 micronesia wrote: Isn't this very risky? First of all you need very good intelligence from your observers to see if it is viable. It's very easy for the terran to block up his choke and siege his reinforcement tanks behind the wall. If he's blocked it up correctly you are going to lose your main army to his reinforcements while doing little damage, all the while allowing him to slow-push to your natural and take out your other bases. Later in the game I think this becomes more viable with various tech options. It's more of a style thing. If you have enough army to break his push which is in a semi-unflankible position, you should be able to break a lightly defended main that rallies everything to the front. I do think trading bases is good with protoss, you can rebuild mass gateways with 1 pylon and 1 probe, while terran need more time to make a new one. While your army is raping his main, make dark templars to wear down his main army, he'll have no scanners. This game for instance, a counter to the main while making DTs, I'm sure there are better examples out there though. Ah yeah I suppose higher tech helps >_< Bleh I wish I could've watched that rep, no cd w/ me atm | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On September 16 2007 18:29 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: Dude, PvT for begginers is the easiest match up in the whole SC game, so like [Joyo] said: X [jOyO] United States. September 16 2007 02:06. Posts 889 PM Profile Buddy Quote TvP Luna is one of the hardest fucking things to win, stop crying and learn to play! Are you fucking kidding me? You can follow him out. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
There was literally hundreds of things that went wrong, you could have lost in ten minutes, but luckily, your opponent wasn't very good either. Don't be discouraged, everyone was bad at one point or another; keep on practising, and you will get better. Some of the things that bothered me in particular: - Rally your workers. It's not a big deal at the moment, but you would have to do it sooner or later. - Get Zealots earlier. You can start getting Zealots after you have 12-18 Dragoons. If you had more Zealots, you could have potentially won. - Get more observers. At this point, get about 6 or more observers and scatter them across the map. This way, you wouldn't have to worry about mines and losing Dragoons mindlessly. You may also choose to upgrade sight range and/or speed. You lost about 20 Goons throughout the game to mines, which could have been easily saved if you had enough observers. It was particularly painful to see the five goon explosion near your min only at around 13 minutes. - Nexus placements. You are not andriode, and he's retarded at placing his CCs anyway. Just because he wins with poorly positioned bases, doesn't mean poorly positioned bases give you wins. If there is a mine, clear it with goons, suicide zealots, or w/e. Don't place a Nexus too far away from the patches unless you have a huge advantage or it's late game and you have too many probes. In any case, this should be avoided. Also, your natural's Nexus placement could have been better as well. There was nothing you did "wrong" in particular, he was just overall a better player. Keep on practising. GL ^^ | ||
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CustomXSpunjah
United States1093 Posts
On September 16 2007 18:29 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: Dude, PvT for begginers is the easiest match up in the whole SC game, so like [Joyo] said: X [jOyO] United States. September 16 2007 02:06. Posts 889 PM Profile Buddy Quote TvP Luna is one of the hardest fucking things to win, stop crying and learn to play! because we want to help our fellow TL'ers by insulting them, what a bunch of assholes.... | ||
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