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Active: 671 users

Is terran bio useless outside of TvZ?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-18 15:38:26
December 18 2021 15:38 GMT
#1
It seems that bio never gets used in TvP and TvT. Is it hopeless because of range of dragoons and power of siege tanks?

If so, can it work on lower skill levels, when players dont have good micro and wont be able for example kite with dragoons?
quaristice
Profile Joined February 2021
112 Posts
December 18 2021 18:53 GMT
#2
it's not much about micro, more about unit composition.

marines are like hydralisks but smaller with less health and they are in a more concentrated clump.

so think about what counters hydralisks: splash damage

the other part of the puzzle is whether or not medics have time to heal, so burst damage is also strong against mnm.

against T, vultures 2 shot marines making medics irrelevant. siege tanks outrange them a lot and kill many of them in 1 shot. goliaths also kill them very fast. spider mines splash all over them.

against P, the dragoons can be a problem like you said, yes. but it's mainly because of reavers + high templar.1 reaver or 1 high templar can kill like, 10 million mnm. it's a bit more effective against P than T, but it's generally still very weak.

sometimes you will see a marine medic attack used against very fast 2 base carrier, like if the protoss skipped every tech and economy in between. this is mostly an all-in. carriers in low numbers with low economy are not great against mnm. they deal the damage slowly, without splash. and the mnm can eat interceptors.


check this game that starts at 1:15:24 between mini and mong. mong scouts the fast carrier, and does this to hard counter it. but it's important to keep in mind that this was a reactive play, not the plan from the beginning "i'm going to go bio". notably, mini had no splash damage.

there are some other niche situations like this where they can find use in the TvP matchup, but they are rare.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10137 Posts
December 18 2021 20:19 GMT
#3
There are two other builds for MnM in TvP that rely on a timing push: Shallow Two and Deep Six. Shallow Two is 2 Barracks 1 Factory fast timing off of one base to punish greedy Protoss. The second is a later timing off of 2 bases with 2 Factories 6 Barracks, but you have to prevent Protoss from scouting it so they can't prepare Reaver/Templar. Outside of that and the above anti-Carrier approach, there is no utility for bio in TvP.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Akio
Profile Blog Joined January 2019
Finland1838 Posts
December 18 2021 23:22 GMT
#4
In terms of TvT, vults being too fast in the early game and like you said, tanks being too strong at later stages prevent it from ever being used in the matchup. In terms of Protoss, there are some instances where it can be used as a counter, mainly fast carriers like mentioned above. But overall, it's the reavers that shut down any significant bio-force to such an extent it becomes unusable in normal games.
Mine gas, build tanks.
bovienchien
Profile Joined March 2014
Vietnam1152 Posts
December 19 2021 08:07 GMT
#5
I use bio vs TvT; 14 CC vs Protoss, Random players on my stream sometime. You can see me on Twtich, I am SCRVN

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1237382446

Bio vs TvT at 2:57:30

[image loading]
https://www.facebook.com/StarcraftRemasteredVN/
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
December 19 2021 12:05 GMT
#6
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10137 Posts
December 19 2021 14:46 GMT
#7
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
December 19 2021 15:29 GMT
#8
I dont think that PvT always being tanks-vultures-goliaths and TvT always being tanks-wraiths/battlecruisers is a good design.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-19 16:48:48
December 19 2021 16:48 GMT
#9
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Doesn't actually make sense

In TvZ every unit is viable, yes, even ghosts (see: nuke rushing vs. crazy Zerg)

It's literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as TvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10137 Posts
December 19 2021 17:12 GMT
#10
On December 20 2021 01:48 iopq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Doesn't actually make sense

In TvZ every unit is viable, yes, even ghosts (see: nuke rushing vs. crazy Zerg)

It's literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as TvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder

Niche situations occur in every MU. Late game ZvZ sees all units utilized too. The uses of bio in TvP have been listed in this thread. You're cherrypicking to justify your own personal biases.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
December 19 2021 20:20 GMT
#11
Ghosts are viable in every matchup, but TvZ the least. They would be amazing though for sk terran if lockdown would work on bio units. I would completely skip starport production if so.
TL+ Member
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1426 Posts
December 19 2021 21:21 GMT
#12
Some1 link Mullet Special pls
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
feckless
Profile Joined July 2015
1099 Posts
December 19 2021 21:45 GMT
#13
On December 20 2021 02:12 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2021 01:48 iopq wrote:
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Doesn't actually make sense

In TvZ every unit is viable, yes, even ghosts (see: nuke rushing vs. crazy Zerg)

It's literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as TvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder

Niche situations occur in every MU. Late game ZvZ sees all units utilized too. The uses of bio in TvP have been listed in this thread. You're cherrypicking to justify your own personal biases.

Well said.

Hive-level ZvZ is literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as hive-level ZvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-20 09:13:00
December 20 2021 09:10 GMT
#14
A long time ago Boxer did an interesting opening with a fast push tank vulture and a couple of mm to snipe the shuttle, did not work but it was close and ingenious. MM in TvP is viable for as long Protoss doesn't know it I guess
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
December 20 2021 15:29 GMT
#15
On December 20 2021 02:12 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2021 01:48 iopq wrote:
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Doesn't actually make sense

In TvZ every unit is viable, yes, even ghosts (see: nuke rushing vs. crazy Zerg)

It's literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as TvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder

Niche situations occur in every MU. Late game ZvZ sees all units utilized too. The uses of bio in TvP have been listed in this thread. You're cherrypicking to justify your own personal biases.

There's no such thing as late game ZvZ in practice
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3354 Posts
December 25 2021 05:37 GMT
#16
BBS is viable in all MUs though!
Horang2 fan
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-31 12:34:14
December 31 2021 12:33 GMT
#17
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Yes, but even if Terran bio were somehow good in all three matchups (it isn’t), there’d still be units that weren’t.

Archons in PvT, for example.
User was warned for being hilarious
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-02 03:43:43
December 31 2021 20:35 GMT
#18
On December 20 2021 01:48 iopq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2021 23:46 Jealous wrote:
On December 19 2021 21:05 SiarX wrote:
I see. A pity that terrans are locked into mech, unlike SC2, where both bio and mech are viable.

Every unit being viable in every match-up is a hallmark of bad game design.

Doesn't actually make sense

In TvZ every unit is viable, yes, even ghosts (see: nuke rushing vs. crazy Zerg)

It's literally the best matchup, if the other matchups were as good as TvZ I wouldn't quit every ZvZ on ladder

agreed. ofc the depth of some matchups would be greater if there were more strategic options, it's kinda obvious. ZvZ is known to be very volatile and barely go past early game, the most SC2-like of all matchups, I see it as the one mostly broken matchup. Doesn't mean there isn't a good zvz game from time to time and it can have its qualities when it does progress to later game. [Also if every single game had to progress to late game and no potential to attack early without big coinflips and gambles that wouldn't be great]
b0lt
Profile Joined March 2009
United States790 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-01 03:17:41
January 01 2022 03:08 GMT
#19
On December 20 2021 02:12 Jealous wrote:
Niche situations occur in every MU. Late game ZvZ sees all units utilized too. The uses of bio in TvP have been listed in this thread. You're cherrypicking to justify your own personal biases.

I don't think anyone's ever used Guardians or Ultralisks in ZvZ to do anything other than showboat...
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